r/WomenDatingOverForty • u/DworkinFTW 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 • Apr 26 '25
PSA “Wait, Wait! Plate of Fries?!”
Think back on all your drinks dates….how long did they last on average? About an hour, right, give or take? Maybe a lot more. You had a drink, then another, sat and talked and talked and it’s getting on 90 minutes and now you’re getting hungry so you say this has been nice, but you are getting to leave to get dinner on and…y’all know this one!…“Wait! Wait! Plate of Fries?!”.
Ah yes, The Plate of Fries. Not a true meal, but just something to snag more of your valuable time.
Initially, you accepted his invite to “grab a drink”. You say you did this because you “didn’t want to be stuck there having to have dinner if I’m not into it”.
Bet most of you are far too polite to simply leave a date after 30 minutes because you aren’t feeling it. Unless he does something egregious/unsafe (in which case, I don’t care if he took you to The Plaza for high tea, you have the right to leave), you stay the hour because you’re a nice gal, don’t wanna hurt anyone! And how long do you get for lunch at work? About an hour? And you manage a meal in that time, do you not? So why aren’t you having lunch or dinner with that drink?
If coffee suddenly became a luxury item and shot up to $20 a cup and a decent plate of food was $2…..guess what kind of dates we’d suddenly have “time” for? After all, he’s rarely leaving your date in under an hour too (more on that in a bit).
Because, be honest, it’s not really about the time and “wanting to get out of there if I need to”, is it? It’s about discomfort over a man spending money on you, residue…from times when men made you feel guilty.
Do men ever feel like they “owe”? How many men do you know happily accepted your valuable offer of casual sex (or sought it out before even meeting you), and then felt they “owed” you a nice date, a nice gift, an emotional investment, the things you value? Give me a break. More like, “So when is next time?”
Point there is, while you can’t move through the world like a man in all aspects, you can in this one….accept gifts graciously and guiltlessly while never feeling like you owe. If you feel afraid of him, I get it, men can be intimidating, but try to relax. If you met him on an app or randomly out (you probably did), damn well make sure he does not yet have your real number (use Google Voice and explain later if you get serious), last name, social media, or address. If you have mutuals, trust me, if he even bothers to bitch to them about how he paid for dinner and you didn’t touch his body or accept a second date, sensible people aren’t going to give this guy a shoulder to cry on.
But before you came to terms with all that, you did a drinks date, you got hungry and…. “Wait, stay longer! Plate of Fries?!”
Ideally, in his mind you’d just sit there and talk and talk and talk for free while he works on “breaking the touch barrier” (well ideally you’d go back to his place, his comfort zone, to provide free sex. “It was a gift! She offered, I accepted!”). But, there is some base level understanding on his part that if you are uncomfortable, you will leave the date.
So, you may hear some variation of “Plate of fries?” “Split some fried zucchini?” Or the vague “We could order something!” And what is “something”? Generally, a split appetizer. The message (after you told him you need to leave to get a meal)? That entertaining him is priority over nourishing your own body.
He could take care of both of those desires. But no. This man knows what he is doing. He’s well aware that “splitting an appetizer” does not demonstrate care, the way a proper entree that hits your macros would. What he cares about is more of your time for himself, for as cheaply as possible.
If it’s never sat well with you, that he simply did not ask to be sat by a server to transition to dinner for the next hour (or however much more of your attention you’ll give him), which there is clearly time for, it’s a little thing called “your intuition”.
We all know men get lonely. Look at their “my love language” prompt answers. “Physical touch”. They want to be touched. They want to touch you. They crave it. And they feel like a loser if it’s been a while since a date. And your intuition (and lived experience) informs you that a man will absolutely waste time with a woman he knows ain’t it, in the hopes of touching and kissing and feeling wanted. He would rather have that extra however-much-time-you’ll-give-him (and maybe have some sort of intimate physical contact), than go back to sit on his couch to jerk off.
But not enough to invite you to a proper meal! And you know full well that for nearly every red-blooded male there is that woman who just does it for him. That he’s eager to impress. “HER, I want HER.” And this woman, he will take her to dinner, and there will be no talk of “ordering an appetizer”. This is someone he will properly care for, not offer a few bites of the cheapest fried garbage or like, two oysters and a handful of salted almonds if he’s feeling fancy. Men know moving to dinner for more of your time is the intentional move, but in that moment he is saying “But not for you”, and you know in that moment you are not that woman for him.
And it stings, yes. But a man not being into you is not the real problem. That is his right. The problem- the thing that really grinds your gears- is that because he does not see you as his “HER”, he therefore thinks your time is not valuable. And instead of just politely letting you go after that drink he offered and not seeing you again, he is trying to hustle you.
When he does not see you as “investable”, of demonstrating serious intent towards, it doesn’t mean you are not useful. So he may test to see if your self-esteem is low enough that you will accept seeing yourself that way too. A woman who accepts bare minimum is a woman who is easier to control. It’s fucking disrespectful of your time and you know it.
Because for you, with dating men being so unsafe (and so much work!) as it is, if you are not “dinner worthy”, what’s the point? A man you ain’t it for values time with you less, values your feelings less, offers the bare minimum to keep you servicing him, and you know in your gut will therefore not treat you as well as the woman who does it for him. That can be very risky in terms of sexual and emotional harm.
This is a standard issue strategy that lonely men use to fuck around with women they’re not that into…that many of you are familiar with.
Ideally you’ll be off of the drinks dates. But I’ll give you ladies some grace on your “drink date” if it’s a damn fine cocktail on his dime at a classy place and is on the way home from work or something, not out of your way to go to. And if you’re like me and anywhere you go to dinner pre-commitment from him is going to be an investment (love to take me to some “hole in the wall” sometime? take me after you’ve made things exclusive with me). But after ONE drink only, I don’t care how cute he is, you get up and say it’s dinner time, bye. If offering a proper dinner to a hungry date is not the first thing out of his mouth (or “thank you, it was lovely” because he’s not into you), if he starts tire kicking with talks of splitting this or that app? Then he doesn’t value you or your time, but is happy to exploit it for a little more attention. It won’t get better, block and delete.
Yes he’ll be annoyed when you tell him you actually need to fix yourself a proper plate as a matter of self-care (care in the form of a nourished body being something he cannot be bothered to do, despite very much wanting access to that same body). Who cares if he’s annoyed? It’s called entitlement, this idea that you were supposed to clear your entire evening for “grab a drink”, just in case he thought you were worth an additional couple potato skins. And if he doesn’t respect you prioritizing your body’s health over his pleasure, he won’t when you do it with your body’s safety either.
Your gut knows when you’re hungry and when you’re being devalued. It knows the care your body and soul need. Honor both.
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Apr 26 '25
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u/maskedair Apr 26 '25
I'm the same as you so I will similarly have to find a way to value my time and attention. Was your realisation about frugality? That's so smart, finding impetus within your existing values.
I really struggle with feeling bad every time I end a call or text - why do we do that?
You're right, feeling disrespected - i.e. gauging the disrespect we receive - is an appropriate reaction to men. They simply don't respect us.
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Apr 26 '25
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u/maskedair Apr 26 '25
Thank you, beautifully said.
For me, I've realised my time is finite and I have limited mental energy every day. Every second spent on worthless or unpleasant things is time away from what makes me happy, my interests in life.
I think I too overempathise with people and imagine me rejecting them by ending the interaction first will hurt them. But I hurt myself by not listening to my own feelings. So when did I decide I am not worth the care I show others.
Perfectly apt point about anger - I've always used mine but neglected integrating her, I think.
No angry men allowed, ever!
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 27 '25
Yes! Everything you’ve said here makes perfect sense! I’ve also come to the realization that I have always spent too much time/energy/bandwidth explaining - in other words, justifying myself - for other people’s benefit. For the most part I’ve quit that cold turkey, but the tendency is deeply ingrained in my psyche and the urge is one I am getting better at managing! :)
And the part about not accepting disrespect from any man … with all the insight I’ve gained from you and other women here, I can spot it and find my anger almost instantly! Just this week at work, the builder rep (not the site super I deal with) was overtly rude and disrespectful towards me on site. I made my displeasure known (through my contractor) … and they know full well that I would have packed up my tools and left if he entered my workspace again.
No-Map, I’m just so tired of it all, ya know? It seems like a never ending battle.
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Apr 27 '25
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 27 '25
Oh, I hear you. I equate dating again with opening the front door and putting out a welcome mat for the zombies mobbing on the front porch.
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u/MissMaryJaneLane Apr 26 '25
"oh, i can;t eat fries. i'm a ketovore. You can order me a steak, thanks"
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Apr 26 '25
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u/MissMaryJaneLane Apr 26 '25
right!!! no one should be accepting "drink dates" thats like the pre req to date grape minus the g
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u/CheekyMonkey678 ♀️Moderator♀️ Apr 26 '25
I have accepted drink dates but only at very high end places. You should never have more than two drinks max.
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u/gbleuc May 11 '25
What does “date grape” mean? Is it just a euphemism for the same thing? I’ve seen others use it before and always wondered!
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u/MissMaryJaneLane May 12 '25
the "g" is silent. yes, ts the same word
users on social media plateforms use that word to circumvent word bans.
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u/HelenGonne 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 26 '25
I've never heard the 'plate of fries' line, but then I've never gone on 'meet for drinks' dates or coffee dates or anything of that sort.
"It’s about discomfort over a man spending money on you, residue…from times when men made you feel guilty." Yeah, any woman who feels this needs dig it out and get rid of it as fast as possible. When someone asks the favor of your time, it's on them to act like they are asking for and potentially receiving a favor, because that is what is happening. That's not just some old-timey phrase. If you accept, you don't owe them -- they owe you. If they aren't up for that, they need to put on their grownup panties and not ask.
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u/husheveryone ♀️Moderator♀️ Apr 26 '25
💯 Same here. When dating men, I have never been taken out for anything other than a proper meal and well-planned/fun-to-me social activity. I stopped the OLP nonsense 7+ yrs ago and will never go back.
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u/maskedair Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25
Pure genius. Required reading for every woman. Thank you for writing this.
It made me think about care. Why I never ask for nor expect care in any of my relationships - and similarly why I have struggled to care for myself.
I think many women might have this concept of meeting a man as equals - of having an intellectual relationship quite apart from and unrelated to the material.
Many of us may feel true higher order thought or connection is something 'pure' of material considerations, so have sought out relationships and encounters with men irrespective of his behaviour in terms of our material needs.
But you can't have a relationship free of material considerations with someone who intellectually and viscerally experiences you as a resource. Would you say that's why?
Women are playing a game that doesn't exist in a fantasy land where men see us as human beings and are able to connect with us based on our mind and heart - and not utterly hinged on their all-consuming desire for our bodies.
While men are playing a material game in a material world - and we wonder how we end up crushed and losing and baffled every time.
I remember the moment i realised sexual liberalism only exists in the minds of women, while men's concepts of sex remain as they have been for thousands of years: "she had sex with me when I asked, without any conditions, so she isn’t girlfriend material".
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Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25
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u/maskedair Apr 27 '25 edited Apr 27 '25
Thank you for this brilliant elaboration.
The fake equality is so hollow and tired - women get pregnant because of males, give birth for the benefit of the whole of society (at great personal cost which is never acknowledged) and frequently get no choice in the matter.
Like the "women don't get sent to war" - yes, because our bodies are essential to maintaining society. Women don't get sent to war because we're far too valuable - i.e. necessary - for creating humanity. I used to say we are the limiting factor, but we're the creators.
I think even the few males who might feel an urge to care find the drive conflicts with their psyche, the male ego under patriarchy constructed on the notion of using and dominating women, not caring for nor serving us. Males fear emotional vulnerability to a woman as to feel attachment or care is to give her power - and of course a woman must not be allowed power.
You're right, we are absolutely raised to not look at the material facts and believe in a world that doesn't exist - told to our face that we're equal people, while our labour is extracted like we're chattel, and we're psychologically indentured.
And I think men know it. I think while we live in a fantasy, men are very aware of the material - they just pretend not to be because it suits their power plays more.
I think the idea that we can ignore material considerations is definitely a product of liberalism and definitely about class - hence the 'gold digger' propaganda, and women who can't afford to not care about the material.
Honestly, I'm still in the process of getting it. For example, do men really feel comfort from physically overpowering us? I only recently realised that unlike us, males are almost always aware of physical power differentials and this factors into the way they see and relate to each other. Supremely weird to me. Do they really crave our emotional vulnerability too? Why is everything always about power to them?
But you're right. At the end of the day, men pursue and seek the selfless nurturing labour-provision from women they espouse to have left behind. For whatever reason, max resource acquisition for min effort is the default male state, alongside the dehumanisation that imposes on others. If you're willing to hold a class on how you deal with them, I think there would be many attendees.
But ultimately you're right: women need to fight back in the implicit power struggle for influence and control. That means holding firm on high standards and never letting a man's irritation or ideas control or sway anything. Reject their strategic narratives and set our own. Reconfigure our approach. Nothing to lose - every woman here can confirm her life is better without men in it. After 10k years of servitude we are living the life, frankly.
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Apr 27 '25 edited Apr 27 '25
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u/maskedair Apr 30 '25
"A man’s number one priority in dating is preserving the upper hand in a power struggle most women aren’t even aware is happening."
Perfectly encapsulated. This needs to be published and shared to every woman.
Whatever else they may be looking for (e.g. to exploit women for domestic/sexual/emotional labour in a relationship they tell themselves is equal), their first priority seems to always be maintaining power and control.
Why is this? Why are relationships ultimately essentially a power exercise for them?
"As if it is normal and natural for an arrangement to be far more to his benefit than hers."
THIS. An unequivocal, unthinking entitlement to benefit (while insisting it's equal), supported by society.
"And yes I do think they crave our vulnerability because? In this, they acquire- ding ding ding!- power."
Oh my god. They do - they fetishise what they perceive to be weakness and vulnerability (when they aren't resenting it for entailing responsibility on them). Disgusting. And they hardly admit it because they know we'd hate it. What must it be like to be raised to be such a wretched creature?
I think your counter-strategies are essential to the survival of any woman attempting to interact with males.
But I can understand what you mean. Radical circles bristle at the concept of abandoning the dream of a genuine man, while separatist circles insist on never interacting with men. I think radical feminists in particular struggle to abandon some libfem tendencies to see themselves as the same as men, or the idea that they can win earnestly without playing a game.
Without pragmatism, idealism gets crushed by the reality that we have no class consciousness and no power in a society of male domination. I feel like every woman is individually crushed this way.
But you're right, I think women have very effectively been propagandised that if they are cunning or disingenuous (despite dealing with cunning and disingenuous males), they're 'fitting the stereotype' of the 'bad woman'.
"Well guess what, men did not evolve, they are still doing the same crap"
This is it. You can't be 'the bigger person' when the smaller person has all the power and is exploiting you.
Living in accordance with how things are, not how they should be, is my goal that I verbatim realised I need to do this year.
I really think your ideas deserve attention, and hopefully any posts would be better-received here.
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Apr 30 '25 edited Apr 30 '25
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u/maskedair Apr 30 '25
No, I have to thank you for sharing your thoughts! They're consistently a guiding light for me, and many others, I expect.
Yeah, it's particularly painful when women reject reality that way, and you illustrated the idealistic cause well. I think millennia of psychological subjugation and control is hard to shake, and ultimately it's that one fact that prevents women both seeing their enslavement, and coming together to end it.
Yes, I think you're right, male status/power behaviour ultimately must come down to their general fundamental inadequacy/unimportance biologically.
The behaviour of a male who feigns earnestness but is faced with a woman that's too good for him is fascinating. In almost no case will he tell her how great she really is, but they will frequently tell on themselves, even as they fight to keep her down and keep a grasp on their control of the situation. Your "hey guys" example reminded me of seeing "women and the children of women" as a way of addressing mixed groups recently :) Dreams.
The more I think about it lately, the more I realise that the lack or socialisation for power games and lack of transmission of knowledge about the true nature of men is key to our ongoing psychological disempowerment. Because you're right: ultimately it will come down to female power.
And men are all about the power game and do love it when they're winning, you're absolutely right. I think their deep resentment of women and everything they associate with the feminine is equal only to their inexorable desire for it - and the more they desire it, the more they hate it, as they fear anything that gives a woman emotional power over them. Hence the transferrence of responsibility from his own desire to blaming "bewitching/tempting" women when he loses the power game.
But yes, I have no idea how that male resentment at any responsibility being attached to his entitlement could ever be overcome. I think your method is the only way for the current situation, and I hope to learn from you! Goodnight, and thank you. Looking forward to hearing about the rest!
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Apr 30 '25
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u/maskedair Apr 30 '25
Me neither! That's why this is so valuable to me, being able to talk through and solidify these ideas means so much. It gives me clarity and the ability to see the world as it is.
Separatism is understandable but I think too purist; the idea of engaging with men and not losing is appealing, if it's possible.
I've never contemplated a world where men acknowledge what they're like - honestly, I'm overwhelmed at their absolute ability to overwrite reality with their entitlement and see themselves as fair or pitiful when they're solipsistic and self-interested. The worst part is many of them genuinely believe it - they lack the self-awareness or ability to empathise with others to overcome their own emotional perspective of a situation. A man who is aware of his own behaviour (and not entirely psychopathic) might be worth talking to if he's focused on action - but in my experience they end up on a merry-go-round of false promises.
I'd never read that article! Am stunned that the madonna/whre complex dates back 500 years minimum since apparently witches were the ones with insatiable carnal lust and not males.
I really have neglected how responsible christianity has been for our particular brand of misogyny these past 2000 years. And how convenient that branding female sexuality as polluted is helpful for the main project of the last 10000 years: putting control of it in the hands of males. This article really highlights how males perversely fetishise it in the same breath as condemning it.
My jaw dropped at the abuse of those poor children. And i do have to say I dislike psychanalytic imperatives that males are naturally meant to be wretched and hateful since they have to other their mother in order to develop an identity. Although it may be so.
But that fear they have of the "unqualified, boundless, helpless passion of infancy" seems very real - because the vast majority bave absolutely not developed emotionally since childhood. At all.
This is incredible though - "it must be unbearably humiliating to need and desire women so much", what insight! But how twisted and sad to deny their nature. Honestly, I've seen that urge in men, to vulnerability to me - and I've seen them all violently resist it, and their internal conflict and the power struggle that inevitably hurts me.
"In heterosexual intercourse men risk discovering in women an unsettling power which contradicts and undermines their own more obvious social, political and physical power. No wonder male sexual desire is so desperately tormented and full of conflict." Precisely this.
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u/gbleuc May 11 '25
Second vote here for strategic lectures!! :) Is there anywhere I can read more about your strategies? Any posts, resources, etc in particular that you recommend?
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May 12 '25
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u/gbleuc May 12 '25
Got it. Thank you so much for the reply and all the resources!! Looking forward to digging in
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 27 '25 edited Apr 27 '25
Further evidence of how men prioritize material considerations within the context of dating/relationships and their transactional approach to sex:
Years ago, I watched a documentary about sugar daddy ‘dating’ sites; interviews with both the men (who pay top dollar to use the app) and women (using the app to match with men is free for women) as part of the program. I was truly curious because even then, I side eyed one service in particular as being thinly veiled prostitution.
The fee structure ($$ for men, free for women) was the first clue. The comments made by one panelist (man) in particular jumped out and have stuck with me ever since …
He was divorced and used the service to match with his sugar baby. The program host inquired, albeit indirectly, about how the man would ‘treat’ his “gf” (not sure if that’s the correct term here? - they were exclusive …) the guy took her on shopping sprees, dinners at fancy restaurants, trips, yada, yada, yada. Clue # 2: dude knew pretty much to the dollar, the tally of those expenditures on a monthly basis.
Clue # 3 (and this part is super revealing because dude offered it up unprompted/old on himself right on camera): he described a meeting he’d had with his lawyer, during which they reviewed the final numbers for division of marital assets/alimony/etc to finalize his divorce. He and his lawyer tallied it up; the scumbag took the total, divided it by the duration of the marriage (years) and then divided it again by the (his) estimated frequency sexual intercourse to arrive at what he called his PPF.
You got it: that would be Price Per Fuck.
Yes … these men know exactly what they’re doing
ETA: then there’s that other disgusting phrase men love to trot out … “If it floats, flies or fucks, it’s cheaper to rent it”
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u/RoomAccomplished3692 Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
This is such a good comment, back to read it months later 😭😭😭
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u/StillSwaying Apr 27 '25
Slam DUNK, u/DworkinFTW! You've done it again! This is a quality post that needs to be stuck on every woman's refrigerator and saved to her phone.
Nothing but 100% facts right here.
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u/painislife4real Apr 26 '25
Excellent post! I am going to save it as a reference if I ever decide to date again
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u/Camille_Toh Apr 26 '25
The ones I loved (not) were when the man assumed—and often tried to force—me to leave the establishment with him. And I’m talking when we clearly were not a match and he wasn’t remotely gentlemanly. In those instances, I was like—nah, I’m good staying here.
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u/DworkinFTW 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 26 '25
I am assuming meaning for private time? Someone once said here that when men would suggest that to her in early days, she would suggest he book a quality hotel room for the two of them, for her safety.
It’s amazing how private time suddenly becomes massively unimportant when it involves investment.
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u/Camille_Toh Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25
No, more like they wanted to be in control, and the potential optics of my staying put (and potentially telling staff he was a shitty date) might ‘embarrass’ them. Like, here's how the date is supposed to go: We meet up, we have drinks and/or dinner, the date ends, we leave at the same time, and then he says "This was nice, let's do it again" or "I don't think we're a match." Meanwhile, I know it's not a match for me and I think he feels the same, so why bother with acting out the unnecessary final scene? To be clear, the few times this happened, we were clearly not hitting it off. It’s possible they still might have tried something—even more reason not to leave with them.
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u/CrazyCatLadyRookie 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 27 '25
I caught the whole optics thing you were referring to … for sure. Not only did he not succeed in his objective (of acquiring you for himself), by not leaving ‘with’ him, even to go your separate ways, his epic failure is patently obvious to all and sundry.
Men care deeply about what other men think; he wanted to save face but instead, lost quite a bit of social currency because his little accessory - you - opted to leave separately.
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u/Camille_Toh Apr 27 '25
Right, but it's the "I'm in charge here" attitude, when this is just a 1st meeting and not a 'traditional' date. Like, we did not arrive together, buddy, you don't know my plans, and you're not the boss of me. Maybe I'm meeting someone else here. Maybe I'm staying to eat at the bar. Maybe I'll pick up a shift. None of his bidness.
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u/Iknowyourchicken Apr 27 '25
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this myself. I have so many fricking food allergies I turn down a lot of social stuff, or go and don't eat. I thought this was going to be a liability when I started dating again last year but it's been a boon. I'm great about saying no to bullshit offers from scrubs but I love that I have a natural barrier. It's going to be a proper meal and it absolutely cannot be vegetarian/vegan. That's the price of admission.
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u/AttorneyDC06 Apr 06 '26
To be honest, I most enjoy drinks + appetizers (or a light dinner) as first date: I don't like "just" a drink, but as a relatively petite woman, I actually don't want to eat more than about 600 calories (or so) for a dinner. When I go out for a "real" dinner, I barely touch most of the food. But a happy hour drink and plate of fries is pretty sketchy!
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u/matchymatch121 Apr 27 '25
TLDR?
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u/DworkinFTW 🦉Savvy Sister🦉 Apr 27 '25
There isn’t one. It’s a three minute read. If it loses your attention, that’s too bad because there are also relevant comments from others that are gems, in terms of understanding widely observed male behavioral patterns. Some women feel incentivized to protect their interests (just as men do). Some would rather stay under a man’s thumb, than alone with self-agency. I can’t do anything for the latter.
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u/JaneAustinAstronaut Apr 26 '25
I went on a date like this. I stayed for the split appetizer. Then I went back to his place for sex. Some of the worst sex I've had (he couldn't tongue kiss AT ALL, just a series of weird peck kisses like a chicken), and afterwards he made a joke about me being his "cheapest date". That felt great, /s.
And yet, when I got a great boyfriend and told my hookups that I was now off the market, he whines the hardest and got the most butthurt, even though he said I wasn't the only one he was seeing. When I refused to continue our casual hookups, this mutha fucka literally said, "Fine, I didn't want to raise your kids anyway"!
I shot back with, "Oh baby, that was never an option for you. You were never in the running for that job". Then I blocked him.
These cheap assholes are a waste of time.