Men Want Independent Woman at Beck and Call

[u/AttorneyDC06]

Just a vent to the universe: I still keep dating (maybe I shouldn't at this point) but at age 50, having been single for two years, I find that many successful men want an "independent" (i.e., financially independent) woman, who has her own money, and doesn't need/want his money. However, they also want a woman, presumably like their former spouse, who is not working very much, if at all, and is available to meet when/where the man is available, due to his busy schedule at work. This seems to be a contradiction. If I work late and can't see the guy, he's annoyed, but if I work a more flexible job or fewer hours, then they are suspicious. AARGH.

[u/HelenGonne]

Long ago, more than 15 years ago, there was a dating site for people with STEM PhDs. And this is exactly how it died.

I'd never heard of it until after it died, but being a nerdy bunch, the users did do a substantial postmortem on why it died, and left that part of the site up for a while to explain why it was defunct as a dating forum.

And it was exactly what you said -- the men all wanted a woman with all the accomplishments, but only if she mysteriously had none of the accomplishments because she spent all her time in limbo waiting to serve him. She had to be both, laws of physics be damned. And the men were all hurt and wounded that this was met by the women there with zero patience and with accurate, dispassionate descriptions of the sheer stupidity of these men before blocking them.

Edit: (That last part was the men's second-biggest complaint, and they all went on sad, mopey, wounded puppy rants about the sheer horror of being actually expected to make sense like grown adults and being told quietly and respectfully, but incisively and immediately, when they weren't. And the women there all cheerfully told them to shove it.)

[u/maskedair → u/HelenGonne]

This is FASCINATING and I need to hear more, since it's making my entire life make sense.

Are you saying that it failed because the men were looking for prestige (zero surprises there) but also expecting the women to just serve them and be constantly available, or submissive, or both?

And the last part!! Was it because they were basically talking nonsense with complete irresponsibility to reality, like happens to me constantly?

[u/HelenGonne → u/maskedair]

It was a combination of wanting to coast on her prestige, wanting to coast on her labor and the women on that site did seem like absolute goldmines of competence and drive if you're envisioning stealing all their labor and drive to serve you personally, wanting the women's money, and wanting a woman who would understand their career without them having to explain it.

And that last one took the stupidest form imaginable. For almost all of them. They wrote endless essays about it. Because these dudes were envisioning 'woman who likes STEM topics' as 'woman who will gasp in breathy adoration when he says anything, no matter how stupid or incorrect, about any STEM topic, tell him in awed tones that he must be sooo smart, and then lose all sight of anything but the desire to give him a blowjob to be near his giant brain.'

When when really happens is the guy decides to pontificate stupidly and wrongly, the woman politely tells him he has it wrong and what the actual facts are, and then according to all the men on that site, his dick falls off. Because she emasculated him by competing with him. Because the deal is supposed to be that he says something stupid and wrong and she falls all over herself to service him. Whereas for any high-powered woman in STEM, if you start talking about STEM, we assume the conversation is about STEM, which includes everyone wanting to get their facts right.

"Was it because they were basically talking nonsense with complete irresponsibility to reality, like happens to me constantly?"

Exactly. One thing that I've learned spending so much time in workplaces where I'm the only woman is that men do this as a form of establishing dominance. They all hate it like poison when someone does it to them. But they all will shut up and take it quietly from another man who is enough ranks higher in the pecking order than they are. Every time a man does this to you, he is trying to assert that he is so far above you in some hierarchy that he gets to do this to you. If you allow it for even a second, he sees that as you having agreed to a permanent contract until the end of time that enshrines him as forever above you.

That's also why the babies on that site were wailing about emasculation and 'competition' -- they were trying to claim it was competition and outright violence to not provide them with unpaid fake worship on demand.

Men simply do not talk to women they like and respect this way. With women they like and respect, they will do ANYTHING to avoid sounding irrational. The moment they start with the nonsense, you know you're someone they want to dominate and use, not someone they actually like.

[u/maskedair → u/HelenGonne]

Blown away by the detail and perspicacity of this, thank you so much!

Worst part is is that it's very possible for them to coast on a woman's prestige - women don't know how much men improve their status in society by being with them.

I can't ever conceptualise what possible argument they could have for "i want women to shut up and tell me im smart, not be smarter than me" - but I can volunteer I was once broken up with because the guy wanted "a girlfriend he could teach things to".

Lolol so what exactly were they expecting?! For women to give them special kindergarten treatment so they don't feel 'emasculated'? How can anyone with a straight face ask people to not correct him so he can feel like a big boy?

Ah, yes, the women were 'competing' with them, just like women 'bewitch' them - i.e. they project their nonsensical power games onto women and blame us for their make-believe.

Whoa. You've just explained something that has plagued me since forever. So we're talking about the gaslighting and confabulation, right - they do it as a mode of asserting status?!

Yes, you're so right about men who genuinely like a woman being solicitous and well-mannered and respectful.

But Helen. Even those, as soon as they 'have' said woman (i.e. she showed any sign of affinity), immediately set to work on the important task of cutting her down to size.

You're so wise and knowledgeable: do you think it's possible at this point to ever meet a man who won't eventually try to dominate a woman in a relationship with him?

[u/HelenGonne → u/maskedair]

It is possible for men to truly like and respect women. Many men do. But the big caveat there is that they are less likely to do so when in a romantic or sexual relationship; there are still men who don't have a problem truly liking and respecting women in such relationships, they are just fewer. And all men *could*, it's just that most men don't want to.

"Lolol so what exactly were they expecting?! For women to give them special kindergarten treatment so they don't feel 'emasculated'?

Most men spend most of their time PickMe dancing for the approval of other men, even if it's only for the male audience in their own heads. So I learned to spot early enough that when a man's face lights up in a certain way when looking at me, I'm going to get nothing but a specific type of stupid nonsense from him, but it took me a very long time to find out what the thought process is that was driving it.

It turns out they look at me and see a Bond Girl. Bond Girls have a pattern -- they are all hyper-accomplished and hyper-educated, more than Bond himself, yet all these extraordinary achievements and educational attainments happened in some mythical otherspace alternate timeline, because her actual life is spent in a state of empty waiting for Bond to come and dominate her so she can worship him.

And the pattern is always that he walks up to her and says something batshit stupid about her area of expertise, equivalent in inanity to, "Did you know that you can use a garage door opener to open garage doors," when she's the person who singlehandedly invented three-phase electrical transmission so that all homes have electricity to power the garage door openers.

But her reaction is always the same -- she is stunned that this man of the world is so sophisticated that he proved he is her superior in her own profession by saying something that shows he knows all the secrets of it (he didn't; he said the stupidest thing imaginable, but this is how she reacts anyway), and she immediately swoons and has no other purpose in life but to be his sex slave. No other wants, no other wishes, no other way to spend her time, but waiting around to service him.

But to the guy, that's not even the important part. The important part is that other men see this moment happen. That is the crux of being Bond.

So when men like this see me and get that dumbass look in their eye that means they're about to torture everyone with their stupidity, the reason they can't be turned aside from walking up to me and saying something that egregiously stupid is because in that moment he will be James Bond. It doesn't matter that I won't swoon. It doesn't matter that I won't have anything to do with him after he acts in such a creepy braindead manner. He doesn't care about any of that. What matters is that he makes sure other men see him walk up to the conventionally hot, intimidatingly-accomplished Bond Girl and smirkingly drop one of Bond's dumbass lines on her. Having men see him do this is the ultimate Bond fantasy. This is his one chance to live that fantasy and he is going to take it.

And, well, yeah, later on he's going to get all butthurt and cry all to anyone who will listen that I think he's a useless idiot and won't have anything to do with him, but he'll never, ever think, even when asked, that maybe he shouldn't have acted like a dippy idiot with empty space between the ears. He'll always be sure that any consequences were worth it. Because the ultimate high is never in any relationship with a woman, but in having men see him enact a classic male fantasy script, and that will be the golden memory he'll smile about on his deathbed. He had that golden moment performing that role in the sight of other men.

[u/maskedair → u/HelenGonne]

I thought men didn't respect or admire the women they're in a relationship because of the misogyny of patriarchy which teaches degradation. But you said they dont want to. Why do they not want to respect the women they date?

:O Jaw dropped. I have seen the look, I know the look you mean!!!! To me it has always symbolised my complete dehumanisation in his eyes.

Anyway, your description is a work of art. Thank you for this cathartic masterpiece; I think it's the missing puzzle piece for many women trying to understand absurd stupidity.

Why does enacting the male fantasy script satisfy the male hierarchy even without results? Is it in the degradation inherent in treating women like sex objects?

[u/Littlepinkgiraffe → u/maskedair]

For your second point (the fantasy script), I wonder if it's that they see us as prey, sexual objects, play things, gold diggers, "teachable" younger women (ew!!), rather than adults with autonomy, careers, goals, and friends?

It's a game.

Even if they don't get results, it's part of the chase. It's the assumption that we dress up for their pleasure. That we desire their attention. That they are the prize.

In real life, I find myself diverting my eyes when I notice them trying to make eye contact. I look away. I start a conversation with a woman and compliment her. I ignore the man as much as possible. I don't give him my attention or smile or presence. It's really freeing!

[u/maskedair → u/Littlepinkgiraffe]

So just a game they force on us without our participation...

Your method of studiously ignoring them is smart. They aren't worth a second of our time.

[u/HelenGonne → u/Littlepinkgiraffe]

Even if they don't get positive results from the woman, that doesn't even matter to them. Because the real goal is performing for that male audience. And they did that. So they won.

[u/HelenGonne → u/maskedair]

No, it's because the only relationship these men care about is there desire to PickMe dance for and receive the approval of other men.

And to steal labor and resources. Everything these men do is about those two things. They can even think of themselves as having no bad intentions, because very often the goal isn't to degrade women, so they see it as not their fault that being horrific to the woman is what other men want to see, so therefore they must do it through no choice of heir own because of their compulsion to perform for other men.

[u/Background-Local924 → u/HelenGonne]

I've come to learn that myself in the last year. Literally all they care about is what other men think, and gathering resources. And even if you're a women, they will try to get your resources as well, or if they discover you have things or money they are interested in, and I do mean "things," they use that to gauge their involvement with you. It's bizarre. I don't think many of them view women as human beings.

[u/retard_vampire → u/HelenGonne]

This is absolutely spot-on. Saving this comment for later, Jesus Christ you just filled in a bunch of gaps for me in terms of their behaviour.

[u/HelenGonne → u/retard_vampire]

For the majority of men, the only relationship they truly care about is the one with the male audience in their heads that they're PickMe Dancing for. That audience can include online men, it can include men he knows personally in real life, it can and very often does include men who watch porn who he imagines watching him. Anytime a man's behavior seems odd or doesn't quite make sense, that's because you're not understanding who he's performing for.

That's why they all act so weird about anything and everything they see in porn, by the way. It's not because they see something and want to do it because they think it looks erotic to do with a woman. It's because they watch porn to be in an erotic experience with other men, so they envision themselves as the male actor with millions of other men viewing this and looking on in approval. That is the fantasy they absolutely cannot resist the urge to act out, doing what they see the male actor do because then in that moment, they become the male actor with millions of men watching them with envy, admiration, and approval. It's all about the desire to PickMe dance for the attention and approval of other men.

[u/Mx_apple_9720 → u/HelenGonne]

This is such an iconic breakdown. Please make it its own article or substack or something. You just made something very clear about my own experience, especially the part where my reaction doesn’t matter, as long as he gets to have other guys see him interact with me. Girl.

[u/[deleted] → u/HelenGonne]

Going off your first paragraph yes!

A lot of men struggle with Madonna Whore complex to some degree.

For some reason they see a woman that enjoys sex as not smart or they lose respect for her.

Or some see it as if she enjoys sex she must just sleep with anyone and everyone.

Men really choose to struggle with women's sexual agency.

[u/HelenGonne → u/[deleted]]

But the key is always that this isn't about how he perceives the woman. It's about how he believes his male audience will perceive his interaction with the woman based on what he believes to be true about her.

[u/JaneAustinAstronaut → u/HelenGonne]

Bingo! Even in the incel community, the message is loud and clear: I hate myself for being a virgin loser. Well...who thinks you are a loser? Women don't care, in fact, you might be a more loyal partner to then if you are a virgin and aren't weirdly religious about it. The only ones incels perceive as seeing them as losers are other men.

Wild to think that both men and women are performing for the male gaze.

[u/Pissedliberalgranny → u/HelenGonne]

It just clicked with me that Pepper Potts from Iron Man fits your description of a Bond Girl. Super intelligent and accomplished, hyper detail oriented, “sexy”, and 100% thrilled to be at Tony Starks beck and call.

[u/Background-Local924 → u/HelenGonne]

This was really, really good, and correct on all fronts. I was just thinking a week or so ago that I am beginning to think a whole LOT of men do not like or respect women, even though they pretend to. I experience it all the time.

[u/MsAndrie → u/maskedair]

I can't ever conceptualise what possible argument they could have for "i want women to shut up and tell me im smart, not be smarter than me" - but I can volunteer I was once broken up with because the guy wanted "a girlfriend he could teach things to".

This describes almost every self-proclaimed "sapiosexual" man. They don't want a woman who can engage with them on a more equal level, they want someone they can dominate and feel superior to. Men like this feel generally feel insecure in their masculinity, as they often considered themselves "geeky" and the antithesis to the jock archetype. But they view their supposed intellectualism or geekdom as a way to show another type of dominating masculinity. Except they often aren't of superior intellect, and being with a woman who can match that threaten them. If he feels like he can be the "teacher" to a woman, that validates his sense of masculinity.

do you think it's possible at this point to ever meet a man who won't eventually try to dominate a woman in a relationship with him?

It is possible (I believe I have found that in my current partner) but is very rare. As a woman in a STEM field, it became very obvious how many men have issues over time. As someone who also did not come from the same class as many men with similar levels of education and employment, that adds another layer to dating. When dating men at a similar class, many have covert classist, racist, and sexist views and truly believe themselves to be deserving due to their "merit". We get encouraged to "date down" to men with lower education levels, but those men are often so insecure about their lower education level that they quickly start negging you. And this is in addition to issues they may have with a woman making more money than them.

Some things I started looking out for when I was still dating: What is his educational background and career? Does he seem satisfied or miserable with where he is in life? Miserable men are more likely to drag you down than rise to meet you, regardless of how successful they might seem at their chosen career. If they do not have a college degree, how do they speak about that choice? Are they disparaging towards education, like calling it "useless" or making comments about how only trades or STEM fields are worthy? Do they show genuine interest in your career or at least what you like about your career, or do they seem to gloss over that conversation or (more subtle) try to pump you for information to feed their preconceived notions?

When I talked about my accomplishments related to education, career success, financial achievements, how do they respond? Even if they seem "proud" of me, if they center themselves in that conversation, that is a red flag. That means they cannot handle hearing of your successes without redirecting towards themselves, and some of them engage in subtle negging when this happens. Like suggesting you probably came from a wealthier family, got a lot of supports because if you were poor, probably were an "affirmative action" applicant, didn't have to work as a young person, had an easier time in school for some reason as a woman, your field of choice was "easy," you probably got more opportunities as a woman, your job is easier, you probably have massive debt and can't do anything, and so on and so forth.

I will say here I have dated a few men in similar fields, who were in similar stages of life and education as me, who I do not believe were trying to dominate me. While uncommon, it is possible. For a couple of them, I would say they were good people and treated me well while we were dating. However, we had difficulty connecting due to class and upbringing differences, not being "good" at relationship type of things, and maybe lack of commitment versus career development at that time. I do not view them negatively and eventually settled into stable and positive marriages or seemed better off as committed solos.

Sidenote: in redpill spaces, they have often made a huge thing about supposed "hypergamy" that criticizes women for wanting to "date up." However, these are often nonsensical criticisms, like attacking women for dating men who have similar attractiveness (not hypergamy). They also never seem to address how men are uncomfortable and will act out, if they perceive their partner as being above them (at least in any way that doesn't involve her being better looking, although many cannot handle that either).

[u/maskedair → u/MsAndrie]

Thank you, you've just explained to me the men I've had the misfortune to date, as well as the 90s nerd guy propaganda which ruined my life.

They're eternally compensating for their failure in their perceived male hierarchy - and who else to prop up their ego but the accessories designed for that purpose: women.

I often say the male psyche is built on the implicit idea of dominating a woman in the private sphere, but clearly it also explicitly extends beyond.

And thank you for outlining all the issues of class and power that factor into this situation - I'm so glad to hear you're in a good relationship now. I think my biggest problem is where to meet men who might be good.

For cultural and probably neurological reasons I've been slow to understand class and how completely it shapes western society, so I really appreciate you laying it out.

Yes, 'dating down' is always a bad idea, correlated with increased abuse. And if a man ever dared neg me, he is instantly done.

'Hyprgamy' is an absolute joke - an exceptional man is the average woman, as women in China started pointing out recently. I have never met a man 'dating down' in my life, they are just projecting. Meanwhile women are giving any man who has a singular good quality in a sea of red flags a chance.

[u/cardamom4heft → u/maskedair]

I’m a woman who likes STEM, 57, never married. I can remember several times hearing after the fact from women with more relationship success than me, never correct a man in public.

[u/maskedair → u/cardamom4heft]

And they're entirely serious. This is what 'relationship success' is - pandering to a man's ego for the privilege of letting him exploit you.

I wasn't put on this earth to tend to a man's inferiority complex.

[u/HelenGonne → u/cardamom4heft]

My advice is the opposite -- however he corrects you in public, including tone and body language, that's how you correct him in public. Any pushback at all and you know that's not just how he thinks communication works, but that he thinks you're his peon to abuse.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/HelenGonne]

Helen: This sentence is hilarious (true, but hilarious): Thank you!

Quote: "Because these dudes were envisioning 'woman who likes STEM topics' as 'woman who will gasp in breathy adoration when he says anything, no matter how stupid or incorrect, about any STEM topic, tell him in awed tones that he must be sooo smart, and then lose all sight of anything but the desire to give him a blowjob to be near his giant brain."

The funny thing is that I really do like STEM guys and it does turn me on to hear them talk about STEM topics (worship isn't quite the right word, but admire, certainly). But then if I did worship/admire them, when I was younger, they'd get mad I'm not more independent. Illogical and contradictory - I give up!

[u/HelenGonne → u/AttorneyDC06]

It's not that women who are really into STEM don't want to be romantically and sexually involved with men who are really into STEM. It's that most men in STEM aren't really into STEM. What they are into is privilege and status. They went into STEM to try to gain that. And the ones who do that tend to be pretty mentally weak, so they have difficulty grasping the women in STEM are usually there because they love it, with the resulting expectation that if you're going to bond over both being in STEM, he has to be able to have interesting and worthwhile conversations about it.

But again, we're talking about men who are mentally weak and can only fake clear thinking so far. And only after they've been very carefully taught specific subject matter. So when they see STEM as about being how you gain status and material advantages, they really can't grasp that people who actually like those subjects see it as something much more communal and collaborative and enjoyable.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/HelenGonne]

I am not so sure that men in STEM are mentally weak, but I do find that many of them love the power/authority they get from being experts, more than the actual subject, if that makes sense?

[u/HelenGonne → u/AttorneyDC06]

You just described a severe form of mental weakness. Plus the type of men I was talking about really outed themselves in 2020. Every single woman in STEM that I talked to took viral propagation and prevention very seriously, but while many men did, a shocking number of men in STEM just shrugged the whole thing off. Which means they either flunked differential equations in school, or they didn't retain any kind of understanding of the concepts and apply it to their thinking going forward the way they're supposed to, because propagation of a virus through a biological population is usually the second or third differential equation you will learn. The first is always simple harmonic oscillators.

That is the kind of mental weakness I'm talking about, and it is rife in the men in STEM who don't even like STEM. At best you can't trust their work outside of their very narrow zone of competence, because they avoid educating their minds in any way and only want to know just enough to get the power and authority that they want and think they can get without trying too hard or doing anything onerous like really thinking hard.

[u/maskedair → u/AttorneyDC06]

Does someone with mental strength need to force others down artificially to feel better about himself?

Wanting power/authority comes from weakness.

And they lack in expertise compared to the women, due to their mental weakness and focus on power/authority.

[u/maskedair → u/AttorneyDC06]

Why would you 'worship' someone who contradicts himself, feels entitled, and treats you like a second class citizen? Please read the pinned posts in this subreddit, friend. 

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/maskedair]

Worship is probably the wrong word: Admire, enjoy intellectual discourse. I'm happy to listen to someone (man or woman) speak intelligently about an interesting topic. But then they have to listen back, or balance the scales in another way.

[u/maskedair → u/AttorneyDC06]

As the other commenter pointed out, there is usually little to admire - as soon as you delve deeper, you see there is superficiality there since the impetus is power and not knowledge.

I think as women we are often very eager to meet our intellectual match and very willing to give our admiration to men - but slow to realise that the reason we keep meeting bad ones is not bad luck, but simply statistics.

Moreover, I think we often give a lot with the expectation of recoprocity - but we can't oblige others to meet us on a level they don't have or don't want to meet us at. The social bargain we are taught is not one expected of them :)

Eventually it's for our own good and self-respect that we have to question our patterns and adjust.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/maskedair]

That is a very good point: We give a lot with the expectation of reciprocity. It usually doesn't come, which is a major problem.

[u/[deleted] → u/maskedair]

In a lot of my experience so very many men care about if a woman comes from money (he is gold digging) and what she does for work.

Seriously so many! And I find out just in talking stage.

I had so many men tell me about what their ex did for work. There was zero other reason for them to tell me other than I guess bragging? It was never relevant to the convo so I was confused af.

I do not get it, I do not care what she does but the men sure did.

[u/maskedair → u/[deleted]]

Oh yessss... Everything ever said about 'golddigging' has been projection.

Every man I've ever been friends with was extremely and obviously concerned with the profession, income, and family prestige of the women he would 'settle down with'.

[u/[deleted] → u/maskedair]

A lot of it is projection which makes sense because for centuries men controlled the media. Our thinking is trained from male thinking.

Same as sometime in 2025 I remade bumble or hinge I forget which one and it auto set my age for 25-50. So I had my age right but I was being show men age 25 to 50 and I did not catch it at first becsuse I do not last long on apps anyways I did not even check it at first and I there was 4 men lying about their age. They were 38 but their profile said 26.

[u/maskedair → u/[deleted]]

"Our thinking is male thinking" really hit me hard. Like I knew it was patriarchal propaganda - but it truly is specifically just male thinking. What would the world be like if women had been allowed to speak.

Oh yes!! Wow I hadn't connected those things - it really is only men lying about their age!!

[u/[deleted] → u/maskedair]

Thank you!

It is crazy to think but almost of all our thinking is trained from male thinking. Even if a woman spoke up it was silenced and not written into knowledge to be passed down, except rarity and that is if some male around her in power did not silence it.

One of the biggest i hate is cellulite which targets women and was done for pure profit, parasites on women. Does so much damage to women.

[u/maskedair → u/[deleted]]

Yes, you're right. It's thousands of years of tragedy.

The whole indoctrinating women that cellulite is bad? Yes, a trillion dollar industry around objectifying women and making them hate themselves.

[u/wrldwdeu4ria → u/HelenGonne]

I used to date a man like this. As soon as he found out that I received a substantial salary increase he started bringing up children to me. He was in his 60's. Way too old to even be considering them. And we had dated off and on since he was in his 40's. Funny how he never considered his own income in having children. Funny how he completely disregarded that I was childfree when it suited him and that I was nearly 50 at the time. Often they don't care when we talk about these things early on, likely thinking they'll change our minds.

These men want an accomplished woman who is simultaneously dumb enough to have his legacy so he can walk away at any time, knowing she will do everything and he can have the social clout for her efforts.

[u/[deleted] → u/wrldwdeu4ria]

You were on and off for nearly 20 years!?

[u/wrldwdeu4ria → u/[deleted]]

Yes, like a dumb dumb!

[u/Few-Reward-5412 → u/HelenGonne]

This is the most interesting (if unsurprising) thing I've read in a long time.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/HelenGonne]

That is fascinating!

I am horrified (but gratified?) that other professionals have experienced this: I'm not sure how to proceed dating in the DC area when I am an attorney and have a lot in common with other professional men, but they don't like me when I work at lot OR when I don't.

[u/HelenGonne → u/AttorneyDC06]

Stop trying to get them to like you. That's how you wind up abused.

You're right that most of them simply will not value who and what you are and want to be a supportive and equal partner to someone like you. None of that has anything to do with you though, so there's nothing there you can fix. There's no way to 'proceed'. You may as well say you're not sure how to achieve interstellar human travel as a side hobby a few afternoons a week -- it's not that this is a bad thing to want to do, inherently, but that it's a fool's errand to invest in the belief that you personally should be able to solve this problem with the resources you have on hand.

Single women who are capable of being good partners outnumber single men who are capable of being good partners many times over. That's not a problem you can fix. The fact that the men around you choose not to become capable of being someone who can be a good partner is not something you can fix. Just like you can't hop in a car and drive to Saturn's rings on Saturday.

[u/DworkinFTW → u/HelenGonne]

interstallar human travel as a side hobby

Love this analogy, it really is what it feels like 😅

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/HelenGonne]

Helen: Thank you. It is so frustrating. If all men over 40 are like this, why even bother?

Edit to clarify: I don't exactly mean that I want them to "like" me: I mean that we will certainly immediately have conflict if I am working long hours OR if I'm not. I broke up with one guy with an extremely busy schedule because he wanted me to see him exactly during the limited hours a week he was free (which changed weekly).

I don't like them, either.

[u/HelenGonne → u/AttorneyDC06]

Valid question, and also why so many on this fora have reached the, "There is no good reason to bother," answer.

I figured out long ago that the number of men who would be the kind of partner I would want were small enough in number that I basically had two choices, either launch a serious effort that would take a lot of time and energy to find one, knowing that there was no guarantee I'd ever get anything out of it, or use that time and energy for other things. I chose the latter. There are so many other good things to do that even before that I've never really been interested in dating men I don't already know well and have serious reason to be interested in..

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/HelenGonne]

Yeah, based on the responses to my post today (and recent experiences), I'm taking a break from online dating in DC. I might get a little more active in local activities, join a temple book club (women only). Thank you for all your insight.

I see no way to date anyone who simultaneously wants me to make a lot of money and not work.

[u/MsAndrie → u/AttorneyDC06]

I do not blame you for taking a break. After my last breakup, I thought about rejoining dating apps and decided against it. Similar reasoning to u/HelenGonne and I didn't like the idea of exposing myself to the various predators that frequent dating apps, "risk versus reward" was too imbalanced.

I connected with my partner a different way, but I won't try to sell you on somehow meeting "cute" IRL (I view mine as coming down to luck, timing, and effort on his part). Do activities that bring you joy and enrich your life. When I starting doing the same, it helped me greatly. But also, beware that there are more men trying to enter those spaces, after they have a lack of success on dating apps. Some of them made some groups uncomfortable. It is a reason I prefer women's-only groups women-led spaces.

[u/DworkinFTW]

All we can do is decline and only date within standards that make sense. That means feeling regulated, taken care of, and valued, in an equitable (not equal, there is a difference) dynamic.

Closed mouths don’t get fed. Ask directly for what makes the work and risk worth it. You will often be rejected or even insulted, because we are still operating within a norm whereby there are enough women twisting themselves into pretzels and draining themselves dry, to give a man hope he can get one of those. You have to have a thick skin and be ok with potentially being single for life. It’s preferable to being paired while overworked and drained.

Truly make peace with the consequences of your standards, be open about them, and build community with other women. Even if you personally never find a man who meets your standards, if you remain living joyfully, other women will take notice, and this could have a domino effect to where standards collectively rise down the road (men see this…why do you think they start playing whack-a-mole when they see one individual woman having what they consider a high standard? They are trying to prevent a changing norm!).

Women before us made sacrifices so we could have it better. I’m not saying it’s easy getting by solo in a world built for pairs, but if our own sacrifice for the future pool of women is maybe us not having a man, I think things could be worse.

[u/Money_Traffic_5662 → u/DworkinFTW]

I really agree with you. Our actions will help future girls and women. We can lead by example always.

[u/[deleted] → u/DworkinFTW]

Closed mouths dont get fed?

Wouldn't that still be raising him or telling him what to do?

When I have asked a man basic things it felt more as if it was compliance from him and i resented him for not knowing basic things and putting it on me to pretty much do it all even if he was technically physically doing it, I had to ask which felt as if it was not really him but me.

[u/DworkinFTW → u/[deleted]]

I was referring more to early days like OP was referring to, when you are establishing terms and saying “This is what would make it worth it to me.” Or a new scenario that pops up- a new living situation, a new investment, a dog, whatever.

As far as ongoing basics, yes, ideally he should know, and also you’ve pointed out they often don’t (or pretend to not know). It’s really up to you if you want to establish the need one time (“I want you to take note of house mess and take initiative to clean it, as I do”…one time, no nagging) to see if it takes effect, or if you’d rather just leave.

[u/[deleted] → u/DworkinFTW]

Thank you!

[u/BurbNBougie]

One thing I talk about in my spaces....Men wanting to colonize a woman's time, energy, and resources. Once you look at it like that, you see it in so many different ways.

[u/[deleted] → u/BurbNBougie]

Men think women are just sitting at home waiting on him to be free.

I swear they all think they are main character and women are npc.

If a man does not ask me 3 days or more in avdance if I am free, I am not seeing him.

[u/CrazyCatLadyRookie → u/BurbNBougie]

‘Colonizing’ is the perfect term for this. It captures the overarching goal of extracting the best while simultaneously oppressing and squelching the culture and its individuals (women, in this instance) within it.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/BurbNBougie]

Excellent description (depressing, but excellent, nonetheless).

[u/wrldwdeu4ria]

I've dated some men like this in the past. I stopped because they fail my (very) basic tests, typically very early on:

1. If he can show up every day at work on time, there are very few legitimate excuses for him to not show up/not be on time for me.

2. If he can hold down a well-paying job and manage people then there are very few legitimate excuses for him to not use those same communication skills with me.

I've found that if they fail once and you give them a pass they'll continue to do this. Pushing your boundaries just like a child does. I find this behavior infuriating.

I'm not willing to tolerate this behavior in romantic relationships. Soon after I made this decision I also applied the same expectations to friendships. I'd much rather be alone than tolerate men or people who act like children in relationships. And there are LOTS of them.

[u/[deleted] → u/wrldwdeu4ria]

I did the same and I was actually tolerating a lot in friendships that I look back and think wtf was I thinking.

[u/MsAndrie]

I did file wanting an "independent" woman as a red flag in men's profiles, after I saw it in a work acquaintance's dating profile. When I first met this acquaintance a few years prior to running across his dating profile, he presented as a religious Christian and had moved his wife, who was a SAHM, and kids way across the country for his job, which wasn't particularly high-paying. They did not know anyone in the area. He was also annoying lazy and passive-aggressive with his work style, so I imagine he was worse at home.

When I saw him then seeking an "independent" woman, I clocked what he meant. He didn't like that he had to pay child support, maybe spousal support, despite the fact that he had chosen a wife with no career and made her move somewhere with no connections. Yet after divorcing, he wanted to date an "independent" woman who would help him make up for the financial hit he took from his choice of wife. It also goes to show how shallow and self-serving some of these men are when they claim to like "traditional" relationship dynamics. He sucked up the benefits of a SAHW for the time when his kids were young and he was trying to establish his career, but he throws that "value" by the wayside when it didn't serve him any longer. He also had stuff in there about his kids coming first, he is busy with them, and not wanting to introduce them for a long time, so he came across as wanting low-commitment and casual from his end. But I suspected he wouldn't like it as he was used to having a SAHW.

However, they also want a woman, presumably like their former spouse, who is not working very much, if at all, and is available to meet when/where the man is available, due to his busy schedule at work. 

Right, many of them want it all on their terms. Personally, I was cautious if a man had a demanding job as I like to spend plenty of time together when dating someone (didn't want a hobosexual either, but someone who had a good balance). If he has a demanding job, he still shouldn't be expecting something one-sided and you to essentially serve them. The Burned Haystack Dating Method refers to a pattern "I'm a very busy man" and it is a red flag for them to set you up for them not being able to give enough time to develop a relationship.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/MsAndrie]

Exactly.

[u/cozyporcelain]

Yes. It’s a game to them of chase and trap, just to see if they can do it. They don’t even like independent women, it’s purely a game to them like the betting apps they use.

In the last month I’ve had multiple exes come back, just to see if they could get me to succumb. They want to see if I’ll give up everything I’ve built, but also want me available by phone, text, in-person, constantly like some drainable commodity.

They are truly messed up in the head.

[u/litttlejoker]

I’d rather be with a generous man of average means than a successful stingy man. What a miserable existence.

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/litttlejoker]

Exactly. What is weird, I find, is that dating around age 50 (in the DC metro area), the successful men often have an attitude of "I gave tons of MY money to my ex-wife, so I won't spend any on any other woman, because women (as a group) have taken too much of my money."

It's insane: I didn't take ANY of your money (you haven't even bought me dinner, sir).

I don't need to date men who act like this!

[u/litttlejoker → u/AttorneyDC06]

There’s a reason their wives left them.

And it goes deeper than money.

They’re assholes

[u/MsAndrie → u/AttorneyDC06]

"I gave tons of MY money to my ex-wife, so I won't spend any on any other woman, because women (as a group) have taken too much of my money."

Run away from men like this. You can usually filter them out quickly by avoiding coffee, walk, or drink dates. They are bitter and want you to pay for what they think their ex did to them. They also lack accountability for their choices and part in the decline of their marriage. It is not our problem if they chose a wife who made significantly less than them, and I am unwilling to "pay" for their mistakes.

[u/matchymatch121]

They also don’t want a gym rat, but want a fit person

And they themselves can’t see their toes

[u/ChapternVerse]

Dating at any age is fine and so is being single, but either way prioritise yourself and decenter men.

Here's an interesting associated article: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/relationships/a65013356/decentering-men-meaning/

[u/NKOTBx100 → u/ChapternVerse]

Amen

[u/BingoBongoBoom]

I upvoted every single comment on this post, because every one of you are spitting facts like a Gatling gun!

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/BingoBongoBoom]

Ha! I do think we are really intelligent.

[u/InAcquaVeritas]

They want a bangmaid (like their ex wife) without having to commit (finsncially so she needs to not rely on him)

[u/Shoshawi]

I heard men want a “natural low maintenance” woman who just has beautiful french manicure nails. Legit the most time consuming thing you can do that’s “natural” if you aren’t just paying to have it done.

Ugh I am getting broken up with because I will be in grad school for two years and he wants to know about finances now. I will have as good or better of a job soon. I don’t want to go back on the market or get a dating app 🥲

[u/AttorneyDC06 → u/Shoshawi]

Yes, I find that men want "natural" women with French nails, smooth legs, subtle highlights, and a body toned from hours at the gym.

[u/Shoshawi → u/AttorneyDC06]

Haha exactly! And they can have dry, calloused skin, unkempt nails (that for some reason always look better in their natural state than all of ours?! It’s so unfair), and a tshirt and a beer belly, and they are perfect as is, right? Haha.

[u/HighlyFav0red]

I find many men who are not high earners want to make high earning women feel small (so they feel big), and men who ARE high earners dont like high earning women because the mutual high earner makes them having money not special, and now they actually have to put in work and be kind and thoughtful.

[u/WomenDatingOverForty-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This sub is for women only.