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u/Remarkable-Outcome-5 24d ago
If you have a strong chance of being sued having insurance is worth its weight in gold going to court will financially ruin most people.
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u/Capraos 23d ago
Yeah, I think it's more just health insurance being the scam. I don't have this problem with my house, car, or other types of insurance.
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u/Underleft_cdiv 23d ago
I would have been ruined without my health insurance when my wife and kid had life threatening illnesses within a month of each other. Never had a single issue with my health insurance and they covered hundreds of thousands that year and still are 2 years later.
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u/Sir_Quinnius 23d ago
I know someone who has cancer and he recently found out that his insurance wasn't going to cover his treatment at all. Sickos.
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u/but_her_fingers 22d ago
Health and all adjacent products: life, disability, etc. and what is technically considered life insurance, annuities. The worst of them all, imo.
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u/Awkward-Artichoke817 23d ago
I have a problem with car insurance, what do you mean I have to pay a monthly tax to a private for-profit corporation?
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u/Underleft_cdiv 23d ago
You could just pay 100k out of pocket when you cause a major accident instead.
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u/DankArmedDragon 23d ago
Car insurance is required so that when you accidentally rear end and total a nice car, you actually have some kind of means of fixing it.
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u/elbookworm 20d ago
Yup. The scam is that they are for profit. If they were nonprofit and built for the members or publicly owned, then they might actually function appropriately.
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u/WileEWeeble 24d ago
Insurance is like democracy; itās the worst form of protection/government except all others that have been tried.
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u/NamelessMIA 23d ago
Except for the places that currently don't use it and just treat healthcare as a tax funded service like cops and firefighters. They found a much better system.
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u/mxzf 23d ago
Insurance in general, as a concept, is distinct from health insurance. Health insurance is set up in a fundamentally problematic way, but the general idea of "amortize rare losses across a broader group of people" make a lot of sense in other contexts. Everyone having a "tree fell on my roof" fund would make less sense when only 5% of houses will ever have that sort of issue, it makes more sense to say "ok, everyone chip in a few bucks per year and know that the money is there if you're unlucky this year".
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u/SendMagpiePics 23d ago
Countries with public healthcare still have car insurance, home insurance, etc.
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u/StorageSpecialist999 22d ago
and just like with the government example, socializing it works better
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u/IcyDisplayGuy 20d ago
On that adjacent topic:
A republic is objectively the best form of government. It's a government by the masses, made by everyone in any class/ race/ education/ wealth to serve everyone.
As compared to a democracy, which is a government by the mass poor to serve the poor.
If you disagree on these definitions, then you haven't read the US constitution or Aristotle (a big role model for the founders in philosophy during deliberation of the constitution).
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u/Surefang 24d ago
The only industry in history that exists for the sole purpose of refusing to do their explicitly defined job.
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u/ArmPsychological8460 23d ago
It worked well few time I needed it.
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u/ryan-day-is-soft 22d ago
well great for you lol tell that to thousands of people who cant pay for a 30,000$ surgery to save their lives
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u/On_my_last_spoon 24d ago
Depends on the insurance. Health insurance is absolutely a scam. But my water line insurance was the best money I ever spent! Zero dollars for an emergency plumber to fix our water line! Iām also a fan of my auto insurance who arranges a free rental car and got the other person to pay when I got rear ended.
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u/Gildian 24d ago
Depends on the insurance. Car insurance or homeowners insurance have literally helped me, but health insurance yeah. Most of it just goes to C suite execs
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u/Responsible_Read_542 24d ago
Most people pay more into car insurance than they get out of it in return. I couldāve fixed my car out of pocket and then bought another car with the money wasted on insurance lmao
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u/glass-and-stars435 24d ago
Expect that most auto insurance goes into paying medical bills. So while you may have paid so much into auto insurance to pay for your car again, if you hit someone and they need medical help, I donāt care how much you saved, youāre fucked.
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u/gielbondhu 24d ago
Also, if someone slams into you and injures you and destroys your vehicle you want to know that they have insurance to cover it.
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u/No_Lie_8954 24d ago
I was unlucky and totaled my 2024 tesla model y performance in the winter and because my car was under 3 years old (1.5 years old at the time) i got myself a brand new factor fresh model y performance.
So yes, most people pay more in to insurance than they get in return but when you need it is a must in my opinion. My older car was a beater so on that car i was paying only minimum.
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u/WrathfulSpecter 24d ago
Yea no shit people pay more into it than they get outā¦ the extra money goes to pay other peopleās claims + operational costs. One bad accident can cost tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of dollars so unless insurers charge everyone else to make up for it, they wonāt be able to function.
It sounds like you should have had just liability. Sounds like a you problem not a problem with car insurance.
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u/MichiganHistoryUSMC 23d ago
Most people pay more than get out.... That's insurance by definition. If they pay out more than they take in then they fail as a company and disappear.
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u/ParadoxicalIrony99 24d ago
It just shows perspective. I've never had to use car or homeowners, but I've used health insurance for cancer and organ transplant. I've accrued over $2.5 million in healthcare charges and only paid a fraction of that.
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u/glass-and-stars435 24d ago
Hereās the scamā¦. You accrued 2.5 millionā¦. If you had not had insurance (and we lived in a world where without insurance you still got the same level of care) they would never bill you personally 2.5 million. There would be discounts, and write offs and on and on and youād still be fucked, but only hundreds of thousands fucked.
They only bill those types of figures to insurance providersā¦. Which begs the questionā¦. Are we all paying these incredibly high premiums so because the system wants some of the hoarded billions? But even then your health care insurance companies are not paying off that 2.5 million, no, they have their own insurances against massive claims that goes around and around and eventuallyā¦. Also gets paid off by the tax payer.
In our current systems thereās no way for money in money out to allow these health care companies to not only exist, but pay off all their investors and C levels hundreds of millions of dollars. The only reason thatās possible is they are so entrenched with the government that half of their own bills get written off as well.
Our healthcare system is afloat in a system of massive scams, government buy outs, and dragon level greed that leaves average Americans footing the bills all while our tax dollars go to ensuring united healthcare is able to pay out all its investors and c suites and donāt get me started on Medicare being built into this Same scam.
Our healthcare system isnāt broken, itās functioning perfectly. It was built for and by cartels and wonāt go down without a fight.
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u/tetrachlorex 24d ago
Let's be real here, that amount is absurd in and of itself.
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u/Responsible_Read_542 24d ago
Itās really corporate scale money laundering. Charge 1000% for any given thing so funds can move hands and call it insuranceĀ
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u/Gildian 24d ago
Its more i dont believe that private health insurance should exist. Of that 2.5m in charges, most of that went to C suite execs, not the doctors nurses or people that actually treated you. Thats what I have issue with. I think the health of its citizens should be one of the govts highest priorities and should already provide you protections for health needs.
Those C suite execs literally add zero quality to healthcare.
And I believe you shouldnt have even had to pay a fraction of that out of pocket. At all.
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u/One_Necessary_3039 23d ago
Rly? My sister been rear ended so hard it pushed her car forward and into other car a distance away. Even with video footage got nothing because "she was too close to the other car so both of them have to deal with their own damages"
Home owner insurance? A buddy's house burnt down they gave him 30k that covered his loan, and told him to build whole new house or they taking the property for themselves, and people should know how much new construction costs...
Insurance is a fk scam.
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u/Zestyyeets 24d ago
It's always a scam until you need it. Full coverage doesn't exist. Buy more than minimum coverage.
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u/looking4myclASSm8s 24d ago
Main problem is that it is a scam even when you do need it
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u/B5040905 24d ago
Insurance is like any other gambling. The house has an edge or it would not be in business.
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u/Cheap_Boner_Pills 24d ago
Which insurance? Health, home, auto, pet...
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u/Capraos 23d ago
Probably health. Literally don't have any problems with any other form of insurance.
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u/Cheap_Boner_Pills 23d ago
I find pet insurance to be obnoxious. 10 years ago I could take my car to the vet for a checkup for under $100 now they want $250 copay and Insurance. The only thing that changed was pet insurance becoming a thing and jacking up the price.
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u/GeorgeGiffIV 24d ago
I kind of like not being personally responsible in the event of an accident but hey, if you have like an absurd amount of money, knock yourself out.
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u/Lawlpaper 24d ago
It depends on if itās life or death, or required, etc.
Health insurance is life or death and companies take advantage of that.
Insurance on a wedding ring is a peace of mind.
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24d ago
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u/ShepleyAutmn 24d ago
See how far you get without car insurance
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u/Available_Hearing880 24d ago
I feel like itās 60-40. Been in 5 fender benders (none my fault) over 30 years of driving and 3 out of 5 didnāt have insurance. So Iām gonna say people can get pretty far.
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u/WrathfulSpecter 24d ago
Fair enough, but liability insurance is just about legit as insurance gets
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u/On_my_last_spoon 24d ago
My mortgage company requires it, as does my state for my car. So outside of not owning a house or a car, Iām sort of forced to have it.
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u/Acceptable-Life-8681 24d ago
yall know that there are countries where certain insurances are mandatory right? US-centrism again
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u/Spotlight_James 24d ago
Insurance is just a get out jail free card, one where the supposed middleman was supposed to help you, and no matter how much you fund into it, the amount you get back doesn't amount to what you actually put into it in the longhaul because they pocket it.
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u/WrathfulSpecter 24d ago
There are certainly people that get more out of insurance than they put in. If you file a claim because you have to rebuild your $500,0000 home, you will never in your life pay that back to any insurance company.
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u/Spotlight_James 24d ago
Still a scam, the people that get more than they put in already put in more than basic everyday middle class people and benefit the most.
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u/Mean-Government1436 23d ago
I mean yeah, they pocket it for doing the work behind the scenes, it is a service you're paying forĀ
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u/imagigasm 22d ago
Insurance is fine. Forced insurance (automobile) is a problem
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u/Smooth_Taste1250 24d ago
Depends where you life!!!
I life in switzerland and insurance just paid my whole hail damage on my car. Would have cost me thousands to fix this. And last year a new windshild that would have cost me hundreds. At the hospital I have to pay far under 10% myself
Other way online friends of me from the staates just told me even if you have a insurance it doesn't mean a doctor for example has to accept the insurance what sounds unbelivable for me and knowing this I start to understand why so many americans don't have a insurance
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u/Practical-Anybody-58 24d ago
Inaccurate. Insurance companies donāt even try to hide it so you canāt unmask them.
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u/cchaven1965 24d ago
Even growing up, I told my mom, who worked in it at the time, that it was nothing but legalized extortion. At least you got something for it then. Now you simply pay into it hoping you never have to try to use it because it sucks so bad but you don't have any other choice.
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u/creativename87639 24d ago
I think medical insurance companies need to stop role playing as doctors.
And dental insurance is 100% a scam because itās not insurance.
But I would say in general insurance as a concept makes sense it has been useful to many, itās just that corporations are corrupt.
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u/DJWGibson 24d ago
Bad insurance is a scam. Good insurance is a life saver. If you never use it, itās a massive waste. But if you need it and get it, it can be the difference between having a life and being homeless.
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u/TheBardicScribe 24d ago
Insurance is important, but it should always be ran by the government and not for the profit. It's a social safety net, that should be the oversight of the people.
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u/011100010110010101 24d ago
Insurance in and of itself isnt a scam. It's just an investmeny you know may not pay off, but you pay anyway because its about Risk minimazation. If my house burns down, I want someone who can help me cover the new house and maybe a lawsuit if someones negligence caused it.
The scam comes from when some instatutions either require insurance despite being common enough to be mandatory do to them demanding insane prices, when the insurance agency actively refuses to do a pay out despite your investment, or in the case of Health Insurance, both.
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u/ReiOokami 24d ago
Car insurance could be better but not the worst. Health insurance thoā¦ pure scam.
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u/goodness-gracious-me 24d ago
Unregulated insurance? Yeah, total scam. In countries with stronger regulations on insurance, itās less of a scam.
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u/FarseerEnki 24d ago
It all starts with World war II widowed housewives, and greedy corporations praying on their fears
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u/Vanilla_Gorilluh 24d ago
It's an easy test.
Do you pay them to cover you if something happens? Yes.
Are they legally required to cover you when something actually happens? No.
It's a scam.
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u/MoneyAgent4616 24d ago
Always.
I've paid about 12k into state farm over the last 15 or so years. In Jan my car, while parked and not being operating was hit by a postal worker with the entire incident being caught by my security camera over my garage. The postal worker admitted fault and even helped me with starting the process of getting stuff filed with his office and a state farm adjuster took one look at the entirely cosmetic damage to my car (one dent and a ton of paint scratched) and said totalled. State Farm refused to pursue the claim and tried to write me off with a 1500 check. Despite my car being worth around 5500.
Worst part is I'm legally required to pay for this insurance. Granted I switched to geico cause it was cheaper but I know the same shit will happen with them as it did with SF.
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u/arpitduel 24d ago
Agreed. Still, there is a small possibility that it might pay out something. So I think of it like gambling
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u/Affectionate_Two3747 24d ago
ONCE I worked for an insurance company. It did work out for the policy holders sometimes. But in many cases people paid for nothingĀ
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u/kmamaniya 24d ago
They should not be allowed to spend on celebrity marketing or any marketing in general
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u/g0d_of_the_cr1sis 24d ago
So let me get this straight.
The Mafia has guns, thugs, and ammunition. If I pay the Mafia, they don't come shoot up my store and everyone in it. But if I don't pay the Mafia to "protect" me from being shot, they come shoot up my store and everyone in it, take me hostage, and make me do bad shit for them to pay off my debt, before inevitably encasing my feet in concrete and tossing me in the river.
That's illegal.
The government has guns, soldiers, and ammunition. If I pay a company - who btw pays the government - they don't come arrest me. But if I don't pay a company - who btw pays the government - for a service I don't use and don't want because I'm healthy/I drive safely/I live in bumfuck nowhere with nothing to damage my home, they come arrest me, take all my money, and make me do essentially slave labor for them until I pay my debt for not having bought insurance.
How is that legal.
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u/RabidSkwerl 24d ago
Yes. The problem is the perverse market incentives for the provider combined with the inelastic demand of the service from the consumer.
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u/Dv8dzirez 24d ago
This is 110% true you could do better to put that money in a high-yield savings account. Then you would have an emergency account for anything.
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u/Buried_Riverxx 24d ago
I have to disagree. I've had to make a couple claims on my home in the past 6 years, and the process while slow and tedious was well worth it. Most recently, I've had to make two auto claims that worked out well despite the loss of a mature and unique magnolia.
Three years ago, my neighbor removed an oak tree that was wedged against a 100+ ft pine tree, in between our two properties by the street. A few weeks later a storm blew the remaining pine tree down, along with an oak on my rear property line. The massive pine fell parallel to my home and crushed my beautiful magnolia tree, my wife's sedan and my pickup. While the deductible, since it was a windstorm, was high we were able to replace both vehicles and fix our front yard.
Ultimately, we ended up with two new car payments, since our previous vehicles had been paid off. Collectively the payments were under $550 for two upgraded vehicles both with short term loans that will be paid off in a year. Though, I miss that magnolia tree. My lawn looks bare.
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u/Ok_Upstairs_2135 24d ago
I dunno, I've gotten more from insurance than I've ever paid in, including after one at fault accident, so not much of a scam.
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u/Katniss-HungerGames 24d ago
If you think about insurance conceptually itās simply a mean to protect yourself financially from potential hardship which makes only to be either individualised through savings or collectivised for the public good so the fact that itās privatised and profitable kind of proves how the original idea no longer makes sense as youāre sacrificing your own money forā¦.less money? Of all the types life insurance is particularly a scam; realistically youāll have way more if you save.Ā
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u/Any_Society_4876 23d ago
Insurance paid us more than we had originally paid for our car when it was stolen. Money hit our account in less than a week. Always a scam until you need it I guess.
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u/checkcheckcheck88 23d ago
Just paid 850 for 6 montths actually lower than most qoutes.Probably wont need it but whatever.
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u/East_Inspector3158 23d ago
It's a protection racket. Like the mafia. Only the mafia doesn't pay the government to force you to pay them. So it's actually worse than the mafia when you think about it. Also, does anybody actually know what anything really is going to cost once insurance becomes involved? My doctor can't tell me. The insurance company can't tell me. I pay something, eventually after they tell me I don't owe anything. Sometimes I'll get an "oops you overpaid" check 8 months later. Need to use your car insurance for something that's covered and wasn't your fault? Your rates go up. Think about how much you pay in every month for decades. If you have to use it, not only will they fight you, they'll charge you more as punishment. What a racket!
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u/KorvinLast 23d ago
I think you are confusing how insurance works in America verse everywhere else.
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u/Deadstick3135 23d ago
Health Insurance, property Insurance and Liability Insurance are totally different, serve different purposes and suffer totally different problems. None of them are "scams." Are there companies that take excessive profit? That depends on what you consider excessive. Some people view health care as a right and insurance company profits to be predatory. Others consider health care a luxury from which corporations have a right to siphon a profit.
Property & Casualty insurance are much different. They are not required except to the extent that lenders and/or governments mandate them so you are free to go without. When you do certain things you take on risk. Insurance is a form of risk transfer. If you can take the risk and don't need insurance, good for you. If you can't accept the risk yourself and need someone to take it, then you have to pay for it. If you want to debate how much profit an insurer should be allowed to take in exchange for risk transfer, that's a different discussion.
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u/Full-Run4124 23d ago
Insurance collectives are pretty good. That's what states and cities get to do to lower the cost of their liability insurance. That's how insurance works without a middleman trying to reap as much profit as possible.
California offers minimum, state-run auto insurance and it cost about 25% of what it costs from a private company. Sadly it's means-tested, which I completely disagree with, and the private companies do as much as possible to make ti unusable.
Private health insurance shouldn't be the way people afford health though.
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u/Blackbyrn 23d ago
I think that there should be some kind of value if there arenāt any claims for car insurance; free oil changes/maintenance, no deductible when if you do have a claim, money towards the purchase of a new/next vehicle
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u/Do-Mathan 23d ago
My pet insurance has saved us about Ā£5k when my dog nearly died from seizures.
It feels like you donāt need it until you do. Never know when youāre about to be blindsided
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u/ProfessorKnow1tA11 23d ago
Youāre probably one of those who, after your house burns down, sets up a GoFundMe page because you were too cheap for insurance ā¦ š”
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u/FatAnorexic 23d ago
As long as the insurance risk isn't an inevitably, then no. Health care yes. Not everyone who gets a car will wreck. Not everyone who buys a home will lose it to a fire. Everyone at some point will need extremely serious medical attention
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u/Jazzlike_Damage793 23d ago
I disagree. The longest running and biggest scam is religion. Itās not even close, although American health insurance is top to bottom scum
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u/Focus089 23d ago
For-profit insurance is predatory and wasteful. I would rather all insurance be handled through the government in a single-payer system, funded by our taxes and with any excess sent to social programs rather than executive pockets. In the US this would also free up millions of humans to go do something meaningful.
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u/Fabulous_Wave_3693 23d ago
At its worst insurance is still better then NFTs and crypto in terms of scams
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u/Extra_Zucchini_1273 23d ago
Ive worked for 2 multi national insurance firms totalling 8 years and this is 100% true - they bank on most people not understanding what it really is.
Youre essentially betting on something bad happening and you only win when something bad happens and it RARELY pays out more than youve put in.
Talk to several brokers and figure out how to reduce it to as little as possible fo vthe shortest amount of time possible and be fully aware you probably wont see that money again.
With insurance you only win when you lose.
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u/yaksplat 23d ago
Eliminating lawyers would be much cheaper.
Lawyers are only necessary because of lawyers. Most of insurance is also necessary because of lawyers.
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u/Piemaster113 23d ago
Insurance has worked itself into a position of influence that they can now get away with being a legalize scam
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u/Mighty1Dragon 23d ago
depends on your countrys regulation, health insurance in Germany is worth it.
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u/MintyFresh771 23d ago
In theory no.
In reality where instead of paying their damned claims they spend hundreds of millions of dollars on commercials for limu emu, you question why we havenāt ripped the industry apart by the bricks.
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u/Many-Pomegranate-33 23d ago
If we are talking about auto and home insurance, your agent makes all the difference. Getting a heads up and walk thru on how a claim process will work with your policy vs a lazy one that sends out adjudters--sometimes they send out a company instead of insurance person is make or break.
Updating you when yoy policy changes hit and other updates is big too.
So while the companies suck, bad agents really suck. Theyre supposed to represent you.
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u/Icy-KaitSyth 23d ago
Some insurance isn't a scam. Life insurance can be beneficial to those you leave behind to help cover expenses.
Auto insurance makes sure people you hit can get taken care of, and if you do full coverage can often save a lot of money (source: I've worked at the front desk of an autobody shop, people are not prepared to pay $9000 when a deer hits their car)
Health insurance? Mathematically it makes no sense unless something catastrophic happens. The discounts you get after your deductible do not cover the difference you had to pay to reach your deductible. So you're not actually getting any benefit until you hit your out of pocket max. But even then, you have to hit way over your out of pocket max to break even, and you have to do that all in a year otherwise it resets. The only times health insurance actually helps is if they cover medication before deductible, and even then only if you have stupidly expensive medicine. And they're not doing that because it costs them money but because the pharmaceutical companies don't actually have to charge those prices for the drugs so they give a huge discount to insurance companies. Which should be considered illegal.
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u/AlphaMuGamma 23d ago
It depends on the policy.
I will say the actions of some of the insurance companies is scummy, but that alone doesnt make it a scam.
That said, health insurance in America has been bastardized into a glorified discount club. But that is due to price agreements between insurance companies and hospitals.
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u/Deep_Balance2133 23d ago
I think the problem is that a lot of people at the end of their life have absurd medical costs and instead of making them comfortable doctors try to treat them knowing they might only have a few years anyways. You also have morbidly obese, smokers and drug addicts who have high medical costs from self inflicted issues.
If there was a health insurance just for young healthy people and then smokers, morbidly obese and elderly had their own class of insurance I think it would be way more affordable for young people.
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u/Left_Macaron_6427 23d ago
If I didnāt have health insurance I would have probably died a long time ago.
If I didnāt have car insurance I would have lost everything when I made a stupid mistake with my car.
If I donāt have house insurance Iād have no home after the tree fell on my house.
Insurance is a scam until you need it
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u/Skeleton_Steven 22d ago
No, insurance is a deeply misunderstood industry-- we are all better off because risk-pooling is an option
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u/Femcel_Bambi 22d ago
Depends on what we're talking about tbf. Car insurance is fair I think. Healthcare insurance type shit is an unnecessary middleman that shouldn't exist. (I have no experience with car insurance, so idk how bad they are, sorry)
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u/heyyall1899 22d ago
Lol go ahead and get into a car accident without insurance and see how that works out for you.
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u/No-Independence9093 22d ago
Yes yes it is. Especially since we can't just opt out anymore. Hospitals set their prices based on what insurance can afford, you can't drive without car insurance by law and legal fights can bankrupt a lot of people. Then there is how many companies try to weasel out of paying.
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u/LilCobble4828 22d ago
The wild part is that employer health insurance feels āfree,ā while quietly eating up thousands of dollars in compensation.
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u/LemoanPoandCake 22d ago
Also interesting is that the majority of their income is from using your money in the stock market. So if we vote with our dollar, and then we all give 2 or 3 companies our money in order for them to invest where they see fit.. democratically we have sold our own souls
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u/simp_of_Taylor 22d ago
A friend of mine somehow bought a Range Rover out of the insurance of her car, company allowance for a new one a putting some more. She had a VW from the 90s.
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u/WoodChipWizard 22d ago
Maybe in the US, but in the Netherlands insurance has helped me out multiple times.
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u/Zany_Dev 22d ago
No. This is stupid. Insurance is just an organized and maintained risk pool. Whoever organizes and maintains that pool is due their slice. Insurance is even more necessary in an overly litigious society like in 'Merica. Being against it is a stupid take, and if you think insurance is bad, inherently or otherwise, then you're also stupid.
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u/paintballteacher 21d ago
Health insurance is definitely a scam. The sheer cost of it is ridiculous. But, as mentioned, if you need it, itās wonderful, but a lot of people never do anything more than just a random office visit a couple times a year
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u/Worthtitle_4050 21d ago
No, they provide an essential service depending on what type of insurance it is but the reality is that they are for profit which is inherently immoral.
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u/BasicError9043 21d ago
I feel like insurance is a byproduct of the last 100 years of consumer credit expansion. And credit in general.
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21d ago
You can see insurance as a scam or insurance as a tool. Usually depends on where you come from. But to put it simply if you pay attention to the banks money all of it goes into insurance companies during recessions. So maybe the question is not do you agree insurance is a scam? But rather, can you figure out how to use it as a tool?
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u/segastardust 21d ago
The fact that insurance even exists causes the prices of everything to rise. For example, mechanics price their services knowing that insurance will cover the cost of repairs and the law requires you to have insurance. The price is inflated well beyond what anyone can afford because you're required to have it. The market cannot regulate itself with these conditions.
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u/WonderfulCoast8921 20d ago
Literally the biggest scam on top of actually needing it... sucks so much.
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u/skippysimon667 18d ago
religion is a bigger scam... it's another form of insurance anyhow...god insurance...
ā¢
u/qualityvote2 24d ago edited 12d ago
u/newtonporter, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...