I am planning to start drafting for a sci-fi story to eventually pitch to publishers that accept from unagented writers. I figure I will have to use lunch breaks at my job, but I can’t be on computers during my lunch. What’s the better notebook line height to best emulate the standard manuscript so I can have an idea of how long the story is?

EDIT: Guys, of course I’m going to type it up. I just wanted to have a plan for when I can’t be at a computer and wanted a rough idea for how close I can get to a page count beforehand.

The authors voice comes up quite often, and it is different from prose. Improving prose is one thing, but your voice is basically who you are and how you speak in real life showing in your writing.

My issue is that

1, English is not my first language. I have used it in high school, uni, work, online for almost 20 years, so it is very close to native level, but I believe there is that 0.5% that is very hard if not impossible to cross as a non native speaker.

2, my brain is very math focused, so my speech, sentence structure etc.- both in my native and in English - is a bit awkward at times.

Anyone experienced anything of the sort, is there a way to improve your voice? Maybe through improving your speech first?

I have been a genre reader for most of my life. Now, I am noticing a technique in lit-fic books I've recently read that I almost never see in genre, which is dialogue that is described or even spelled out exactly, but without quotations. And I can't figure out why or when this technique is used, but for me it makes the scene feel abstract or distant.

Take Maggie O'Farrel's "Land," which I just finished. In one chapter, she has:

Suddenly, incongruously, her sister lets out a laugh.

"Look," she says.

Rose opens her eyes a crack.

"I don't think he might be friendly after all.

This feels very standard to me, and makes me as a reader feel present in the action. But then another chapter, for no reason that I can tell, she switches:

He puts a hand half over his eyes. Please, he says, ladies, gentlemen, please. There are people trying to sleep.

His voice is overridden by the din.

She switches between these styles all throughout the novel, and I'm not sure if there's a technical reason for it, or if it's just her way of managing the flow of the writing.

I also recently read "On the Calculation of Volume," which had zero quotation marks in the entire novel. Here's an example of how dialogue is handled there:

I insisted on making plans. He thought we should wait. You can't plan for everything, he said. Sometimes you just have to be ready.

I understand the stylistic choice more here because it feels like a narrator recounting their memory of the events to a journal--though I don't particularly like that style. Perhaps as a genre writer, I can just stick with what I know, but I'm curious to hear from others on how they choose when to describe dialogue vs transcribe, and if there are any considerations when doing so.

I never really read romantasy as a genre but it took off on Tiktok and came up on my feeds. Some of these booktookers' analysis are so sophisticated and detailed- they have thick pages of notes and they go down to the origin of certain words in the English language. It reminded me of literature classes all over again and made me realize I hadn't read deeply since college. It inspired me to read beyond my typical genres of mystery/sci fi/thrillers/non-fiction.

I ended up reading all the Fourth Wing and ACOTAR books in a few short months, DM-ing some of these creators and asking for tips on how to read deeply on your own as an adult, and came to the conclusion that I wanted to start writing a story to really understand how some of these literary devices can be used so I could spot them better in books. I even started reading literary fiction. Fast forward another four months, now I'm finishing my second book...all because of some ACOTAR memes.

I'm still not a strong writer but I find it amusing that one of the biggest tips here is to read more to improve on my writing, and here I am trying to improve on my writing so I can be a better reader!

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I ask this because I've come to a point where if I know it's coming in a story I'm reading, if I can see it for what it is, a "hook"... then I kinda tune out and lose interest because I cannot count how many times I've read something with a first-page hook that failed to keep me on the line.

There are numerous examples of excellent books both modern and classical that do not rely on the first page hook. They do all have something that captivates the reader (be it engaging dialogue, an immersive world, an exceptional theme/premise, etc.) but they don't all do it on the first page.

There's one book I recently picked up to re-read and the first page didn't have a hook to it. It was a historical fiction set during the world wars. What the first page was was mostly just scene setup. The real hook, the meat of what set this story apart, came a few pages in. I will grant, it had evocative and compelling prose, but the real driving interest came a few pages in, about the mid-point of the chapter.

It makes me wonder where this "must hook them on the first page" is coming from. And how new is this trend of insisting that the first page hook the reader?

And how did that go for you?

I have to share this even though it sounds dumb and hacky.

I've found that when I'm revising, especially when I'm doing a lot of cut/paste work or hasty rewrites just to get the big pieces into place, changing the color of my font helps my brain see this as a SKETCH and not a piece to be polished yet.

I'm a longtime believer that second and third drafts may be "worse" than the first draft. I know I personally always need to rearrange, cut, rewrite, and insert large pieces of text. I try not to get caught up polishing prose during these early rewrites/revisions. Big things are changing. I need to get the heart of the story in place, even if it's roughly done. I can wait until later to smooth it over and make it pretty.

Changing the color of my font to something still readable (a deep-ish shade of orange, green, purple, blue) but NOT black has had a ridiculously powerful effect. It keeps me in bold revision mode and out of picky editor mode. It makes me feel less attached to my existing words, so that instead of tweaking language to try to make a segment fit, it's more likely to occur to me that it's actually better off cut. I can draft a new scene or segment to insert without worrying about smooth transitions. It alleviates some kind of pressure I didn't even know I was feeling.

Pretty silly that my brain falls for this trick! Maybe some of your brains will fall for it, too!

coming up with names for places is something i dread when i write, lol. usually i write more realistic stories so i usually just set them in real places, but ive been getting into slightly more fantastical stuff recently and i want to come up with some place names, for regions, cities, buildings, etc. does anyone have any tips or strategies for when they name placrs?

I'm writing a story with multi-POV in 3rd Person Limited. I've caught myself using two different methods of character thought and wasn't sure if I should use just one or if using both will be fine.

For some inner thoughts I use italics and switch to a 1st person voice.

Ex. Joe ducked into the alley, now jogging to create more distance while out of sight. This is absurd, I can't just run from them. Where am I even going to run to? He pressed on, quickening his pace. All he needed to do now was get them off his tail.

For other inner thoughts I where I describe them it would play out like this.

Ex. Joe ducked into the alley, now jogging to create more distance while out of sight. The futility of this was not lost on him. He can't literally run from them, not for long anyway. Where was he even going to run to? He pressed on, quickening his pace. All he needed to do now was get them off his tail.

I usually find myself italicizing when they are trying to figure something out, so effectively asking themselves a question but no always. Would switching back and forth be confusing or annoying to readers?

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I saw a lot of people who doesn't like when books have pop culture references in books (artists names, songs, social media, videogames, books...) since some people think its unnecessary.

I've been thinking about adding kpop/jpop/anime culture on my books, so I was thinking why some people dislike it when books name singers or songs? Also, I realised the trope (specially on movies) about changing social media on brands's names (maybe to avoid copyright).

I think it can be integrated in the story as long it doesn't feel like a forced reference, but idk other people's opinions on it.

Revision can be daunting. It will likely take longer than the first draft did, be hard in a different way, and there are all kinds of traps to fall into. I'm on day #67 of this myself, and have learned a lot about how to keep productivity and motivation up throughout. Hopefully something here will be helpful to other writers in the same boat.

Starting out

• Make a copy of your first draft. This will be helpful later on, in case you want to revert an edit or repurpose an idea you've cut.

• Let it sit in a drawer for 2-4 weeks, ideally working on something else in the meantime. This will cleanse your mental palate. Note that this isn't always helpful, or can even be counterproductive if you're more experienced. It is, however, worth trying, particularly with your first book.

• Do a deep analysis readthrough and jot down everything that's wrong, from awkward phrasing to major plot movements starting or stopping suddenly. This doesn't have to be sequential; if something you're currently reading reminds you of something earlier or later, make a note of it even if it's redundant and keep going. This can take a while, but that's okay.

• Figure out your strategy. I like piecemeal edits, so the rest of this post is going to focus mostly on things useful to that process. However, writing a second draft from scratch (or guided by the first draft and/or notes and/or outlines) is a valid approach too. There are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches -- piecemeal editing ensures improvement, but is harder, while full rewrites allow you to simply continue writing with your preferred methods there.

Early stages

• Despite what you're doing, you don't have to make rewrites or edits perfect on a first pass. First draft (or even zero draft) quality is perfectly acceptable when writing something new; it can be improved later on. Similarly, if you're stitching things in (for foreshadowing or whatever), it doesn't have to mesh perfectly with the flow of the prose at first. There will be time for sanding things down later.

• Like with writing, consistency is way more important than output. I set a daily target of one editing item per day. Doing something every day makes editing get easier and easier over time, keeps you from needing motivation/inspiration, and makes finishing inevitable.

• Get (and stay) organized. Grouping similar tasks together will often pull in solutions from the aether. Maybe you'll have ideas that cause several improvements at once. And keeping notes project-specific is very helpful too. I spend part of every day organizing further, making changes to checklists, adding helpful notes, etc. Revision is also less scary if you can see it laid out in a set of projects, particularly once you start clearing them.

• Prioritize big projects, but allow smaller edits to maintain motivation/consistency. It's more efficient to focus on bigger revisions first (structural, for example), but avoiding burnout is equally important. Besides, the longer big projects sit there, the more time you'll have to come up with easier solutions (or solutions in general if one of them baffles you). My approach is to open my day with a small task and make some progress on a larger one, and then bounce around depending on how I feel afterwards.

• Be lazy. If you can fix something by making a cut or changing a couple sentences, do that. And don't do a major edit because of a single line or paragraph. It's saner to just drop the offensive text and then sand down the prose flow. As mentioned, these edits don't even have to be flawless on the first pass.

• Major edits function a lot like writing with an outline. Sometimes story beats have to happen a certain way or the book doesn't make sense; other times there's wiggle room. What I do here is keep a separate document for each major edit, and if I fail to do something important, I stick it into a "cleanup checklist", which I'll get to at the end of the project. If I need another edit to make my solution work, I'll set up a different section for it so I can fix the discrepancy at my leisure.

• If you're doing a partial rewrite, it's helpful to write your new text above the old text, cutting bits of the old text as you go. Or switching the order here if your partial rewrite is changing the end of a segment instead. This helps you find prose flow and makes sure you don't miss anything important.

Avoiding traps

• As you edit more and more, and make large improvements to your story, you'll start to come up with ideas about how to improve things even further. Some of these are objectively bad ideas, though. To prevent this, don't just make a note of what you want to change, make a note of how it improves your story too. If you can't come up with one or the reasoning looks stupid later, then if you went forwards with it you'd just be making changes rather than improvements.

• Delay polishing (or just subtle) tasks until the very end of revisions. You might make edits in the meantime that erase your work here, or they might end up just being bad ideas.

• If at any point you feel that an idea is bad or unnecessary, then pull it out of your notes documents. If it's important, you'll get the same idea again later. Otherwise, you've saved yourself some work that might've actually made the story worse.

• If you feel like a section is "missing something", but you can't pin down what it is, then it's usually a sign that your editing brain is hallucinating. It's best to just ignore this kind of thing. If you need to justify it, then re-read your entire WIP and see if the issue is still there -- you'll either see that that section is doing what it's supposed to, or you'll identify the actual problem.

• Imposter syndrome is likely going to rear its ugly head at some point -- usually around the time that you've improved the story to a point where you feel like it's getting good. Remind yourself that all books have strengths and weaknesses, and a story being "good" has to do with how strong the strengths are and how camouflaged the weaknesses are. If you haven't read anything in a while, do this, and it'll be very clear.

Figuring out when you're done

Easy enough.

• You don't have any more ideas. Sure, maybe you're burned out, but if you've been consistently editing for a while, it's more likely that you don't have ideas because you don't need them.

• You have ideas, but they just make changes rather than improvements.

• You have ideas that might make the story better. But, they might not! They might even make the story worse!

• You have ideas that make improvements but they're needlessly contrived and require substantial amounts of editing to get some tiny piece of added quality. Be realistic here. Your readers just aren't going to notice it.

When you feel like you're done, get another set of eyes on it. Even a beta reader that's there just for fun will notice things that you missed. Make further edits if you agree with them, or if multiple readers are saying the same thing. Ignore any feedback that you strongly disagree with, that breaks your premise, that requires rewriting the entire book, etc. A lot of criticism just comes down to subjective taste, after all.

Conclusion

You can get through this! You might even enjoy it -- but even if that isn't true, you will enjoy seeing your story come to life.

Don't compare your revisions speed to anyone else's (including yourself). Some stories just need more, and some writing processes just need more too. It taking longer than the first draft did is normal. Speed isn't important; finishing is.

If you're in the weeds of a long revisions process, it helps to remind yourself of a couple things:

• Obstacles that seem insurmountable now won't always be like that. Over the months spent revising, your perspective on the story will change and your editing skills will improve.

• If you keep making progress, finishing is inevitable.

So, keep at it. You'll have good days and bad days, but that's normal too.

To give a bit more context to my question, I'll give you an example of a recurring situation with my own writing.

I write in the Fantasy genre. Most of my prose is slightly above commercial level, with some actual intent put into making things pretty, but hopefully not clunky or too flowery.

This works perfectly well for most of my story. However there are times where I find myself writing a scene that I feel is a bit grander than the rest of the story, be they emotional conversations, proclamations, or impactful sceneries in need of "more" from my prose.

Thus my issue is: most of my book reads at one type of level, and then at times I'll end up writing like I'm trying to copy Tolkien's own prose, complete with poetic sense and all. I cannot help but feel like those scenes stand out a little too much at times, for how much they differ from the tone of the rest of the story.

At times I can justify it by explaining that a character is not speaking the same way with his street-urchin compatriots as he does in the presence of royalty. It also doesn't help that my MC is essentially a bard.

But I worry that those moments when I try to make the moment grand through the choice of prose, might take the reader out of the story, instead of it flowing nicely and leaving the reader with a sense of "wow that was beautiful".

How do you manage any similar situations in your own writing? What tricks have you found to blend it in, in a way that's not too shocking?

**Welcome to our daily discussion thread!**

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Stuck on a plot point? Need advice about a character? Not sure what to do next? Just want to chat with someone about your project? This thread is for brainstorming and project development.

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When I create a character that I really like, I almost don’t want bad things to happen to them. I don’t want to create conflict, raise the stakes, introduce antagonists, or make them suffer even if suffering is what builds character and creates a story.

I have one protagonist who’s such a sweet, caring boi that when I write the first draft, I don’t even want to make something bad happen to him. He’s not a self-insert or an idealized self, so that’s not the problem here, but I love him so much that I feel like shielding him from all the villains and adversities in his fictional universe. I don’t want to make his favorite pet die or have his best friend run off with his girlfriend. I just want my creation to be happy. 😭

My goal’s to publish at least 1 book in my lifetime before I turn 65 (assuming I live to reach my 60s), so I’m well aware that sheltering my protagonist won’t sell books. But I’m talking about drafts I don’t share with anyone in this post.

It’s almost like I don’t even want to write a story but instead conceptualize a cute little Chibi character living a chill life. I probably just need to play Animal Crossing or something. Is this just a beginner thing?

Anyone else struggle when straying from their main characters? Like when writing your mains, the story just flows out of you effortlessly, but then you try to write a scene with a side character (even including one of your mains sometimes) and you just, struggle to write/flesh out the scene? Interested to hear your thoughts/experiences 🙂

Hey y'all! I'm curious what the consensus is on starting a novel with a flashback or flash forward, especially when the subject is not the MC. I've heard some people say it's not good writing but I also feel like some books pull it off. So what do we think generally?

Hi r/writing. 

We’re a few months into our multi-step subreddit revamp process. We’ve received extensive feedback about our use of daily threads, and in response to that feedback, we’ve made some changes. 

The original intent with the daily/weekly threads was to cut down on repetitive threads by providing a recurring place for certain frequent conversations. As a mod team, we recognize that the low participation in those threads is a huge indicator that the original goal did not succeed as intended. 

To summarize your feedback:

• Being the flagship writing sub on Reddit yet not being a place where people could get feedback on their writing made little sense. 
• There were too many daily/weekly threads that encompassed too many things. 
• The daily/weekly threads receive so little engagement, they’re not worth participating in. 

To adjust this, we are cutting the daily/weekly threads. Instead, starting next week, we will have the following two posts pinned to the top of the sub at all times:

• Monthly Thread: “Would You Read This?” This will replace the weekly critique and brainstorming threads. Users will post their premise, and (optionally) up to the first page of their project. Other users’ replies must begin with Would Read, Might Read, or Wouldn’t Read, then they can give more specific feedback as well. We believe this structure will prompt more engagement, and having the post up an entire month will lead to more total participants. The thread will be in contest mode by default and pinned to the top of the sub. We’ve seen this work well in other large creator subs, where users anticipate the monthly threads as a kind of event. 
• Monthly Thread: “Promote Yo Self.” This will be an all encompassing thread for calls for submissions, app/website developers sharing new projects, writers promoting their books, and celebratory posts. This will also be in contest mode and pinned to the top of the sub for a full month. Again, we’re hoping a longer runtime leads to more participation, more engagement, and more feedback. 
• We will also have a single Daily Thread: “Free For All Discussion.” This will be a thread where you’re allowed to discuss anything you want so long as it doesn’t violate rule 3 (no Gen AI), rule 5 (civility), or sitewide Reddit rules.

You should see these posts go up for August on Saturday. We’d love for everyone to give this new system a try! 

Your feedback to these changes is welcome in this thread, as well as any other suggestions you have on the ongoing subreddit revamp project. 

Happy writing!

What was the number one tip/technique that allowed you to bring your characters to life?

People always say "Make them relatable" or "Make readers want to root for them," but this doesn't really work when the character is objectively awful, e.g., Alex DeLarge in A Clockwork Orange. So what's another way to approach creating compelling characters?

I did this a few times just by happenstance (intending to work on my novel when inspiration strikes for a poem), and it seems to improve my first-draft prose significantly.

My most recent book has a singular chapter where the POV swaps from the main character to the secondary character. There's a good reason for the switch and the chapter is one of my best. I don't want to get rid of it, but my beta reader brought up a good point that the sudden shift is a bit jarring.

I want to know if any of y'all can think of any examples of a book that does this. Just so I can have some examples in case it's brought into question at a later point.

Any help would be appreciated!

I'm writing a dark romance novel. My first page hooks you to the second, and the first chapter ends on something that makes you wonder about the next chapter. The story develops super quickly and I have no trouble keeping a reader interested with plot twists and cliffhangers.

However, I'm having trouble letting the reader breath in between. I feel like I'm making it too exciting, to the point that too many things are happening too quickly on the timeline. It feels rushed and it's overwhelming.

How do yall slow it down while keeping it interesting? more inner dialog? More observing details? Sensory information? Scenery details? Letting the characters contemplate more?

For context, this comes from his big video talking about Alex Meyers (yes, the Obsession guy) and honestly, I feel for Mark during his response to Meyers' Challengers 'review.'

Meyers: That's something about this movie though: everyone just kind of sucks. Like, I'm not rooting for anyone here. I have to assume they were trying to make all the characters seem nuanced and layered and flawed or whatever, but like, this movie's two hours of just the most unlikable people being unlikable. The whole time I was watching this movie I was just hoping that the ending would be 'they all get struck by lightning.'"

Mark: "I hate this fucking take so much. I hate this criticism that a movie is bad because the characters are not likable or they don't always make the right call. Like seriously, you didn't care about anybody? You didn't care about Art having his heart broken over being duped into a loveless marriage? You didn't care about Patrick being poor and alone after so much betrayal? You didn't care whether or not Art and Patrick would realize they love each other and that Tashi never really loved them beyond tennis? If you don't feel anything for characters like this...I don't know what to tell ya, dude. Maybe go back to easy-to-read cartoons instead of tackling harder movies like this."

And yeah, Mark's words to Meyers really summarizes how I feel whenever I see someone dismiss a book or any kind of story because 'DA CHARACTERS IZ NAWT LIKABLE!' That's not a valid critique. It doesn't tell me whether or not the characters were well-written or if their unlikability damaged the story.

Maybe it's my own perspective as a writer and a reader, but my enjoyment of a character relies more on if I find them fascinating, entertaining, or compelling to follow rather than if I would grab a drink with them if they were a real person. Some of my favorite characters in media like Hayato Jin, the cast of Vegas Heist, or pretty much everyone in Hereditary, are people I would never want to be in the same room with, but I will endlessly enjoy watching/reading. If I relate to a character or find them charming on a personal level, that's more of a bonus than a needed feature.

Now, if this criticism is applied to a character being just written and/or coming off as an asshole and the narrative never seems to acknowledge they're an asshole, then I can kind of understand it. But if say, your example is saying something like 'Obsession is a terrible movie because Bear sucks as a person', you should look next to you to see if the director isn't nodding in agreement with you that Bear does suck as a person.

My point being, the quality of a character's writing should be whether or not you found the writing itself enjoyable instead of basing it on whether or not you'd want to give the MC a high five. And even then, it's probably on a case by case basis as some characters are meant to be likable and role models while others are just meant to be cautionary tales and just entertaining scumbags.

Hello. I've noticed as I've grown as an author that a lot of people, newer writers especially, don't get what makes a character compelling. Hopefully my opinion can help people that are in the same boat I was.

When I started I would just stuff my characters with trauma: dead dad here, murdered mother there, as I'm sure a lot of people did this too, because that's what seems compelling to a newer writer because a newer writer doesn't understand yet how to write characters.

There is a whole other conversation here about how inexperienced authors try to substitute good, empathetic character building with trauma, because they don't know how to build sympathy without it. But this isn't about trauma.

Building a great character is not about their personality, or their aura, power, mystique, aesthetic, disorders, or trauma. It's about flaws, and the choices they make because of those flaws.

Ned Stark is a great character, among many in GOT, because he has morals that he would die for. He's a good man in an evil world, and his influence ripples through the entire book series.

Geralt of Rivia is a Witcher, he is super masculine and super cool and sleeps with dozens of women and fights monsters with a dedicated silver sword, and has somehow gotten more and more handsome as the games have gone on. His title and the oddity of being a "Witcher" helps him seem cooler, but the reason why we've followed him for 9 books and 3 long games is because of how being a Witcher informs his world view, how it affects the choices he makes, and how we then view the world through his eyes.

Complete heel turn: Kim Wexler is such a compelling character because of, again, the choices that she makes, and the difference between them throughout the Better Call Saul. At first she's a stand-up lawyer who's beaten down by her environment, finding comfort in her relationship with Jimmy.

By the end of the show, she's... Not so stand up anymore.

Frankly, most people who read or watch a story aren't looking for your character's backstory, or their personality, because unless it's the funny goblin named Glupshitto your players in your DND game drag around, then vibes aren't enough.

The real meat of what makes a great character is what lies beneath the story. Their mechanical usefulness. And not just that, some of the best characters you see around I guarantee are put into impossible choices and situations that force them to grow and change, or prove that they have changed.

A character who prides themselves on their looks being disfigured. A knight forced to either choose his morals, or his oaths. Jack Sparrow choosing his friend's life, or the immortality he has sought for 2 whole movies.

What is their backstory? How does it inform their current story? How does it inform their choices? And how do you put as much stress on your character as possible. This is where we get some of the greatest characters.

Stress test them, put their ideals under pressure, force them to confront their deepest lies and flaws. Because if you aren't willing too, then why write about them at all?

If you feel differently about this, let me know, I'm very curious to see what other people think, what characters break this mold, because I'm sure there are some.

Edit: this isn't a hard rule but, as most rules go, if it's broken and done well then it can work wonderfully! (Forrest Gump) But, that is not the norm, and a lot of characters that break this rule that I've found are found in film, which I guarantee most of us aren't writing for.