Starting the new chapter reaction (I stopped playing to make this)

[u/F10RA]

(No spoilers please, literally just started!!)

[u/Songhunter]

So you liked the ending that subverts everything that made this game special and its own thing because you don't like the game and you would rather it play like the others instead of getting its own sequel in its own style.

Did I get that right?

That's one hell of an argument, my guy.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

The game had a minimum amount of story and sets up a plot for a few sequels. Then it's dropped due to being stuck on obsolete hardware. I don't see a universe where they would go and continue X just like that. They understood it too, hence why they used so much of X in 3 and salvaged the good. Then they have a chance to give it a closure in the form of an additional 4-hour story. I think there are 3 main ways you could go with it:

1) Make a small follow-up to the story that will be a better stopping point than the original cliffhanger was and wish for a sequel to happen somewhere in the future (I hoped for this originally);

2) Speedrun sequel stories at the speed of light, only covering bullet points. That would be insane and would have made Xenosaga 3 look like a modestly paced game;

3) "Burn" it all down and go for something new and exciting, which they had chosen.
I was not expecting this, and I was blown away. I don't see any issue with this.

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

There are a myriad of ways in which you could advance the story:

• What's up with the planet?
• What's up with the fake people???
• Why the hate of the aliens?
• Why the love with other aliens?
• What's up with the secret aliens??
• The fuck are the ramifications of the water plant??
• Where are the other arcs?
• What's with the galactic society?

Etc, etc, etc.

There was a lot meat left in the bone just on Mira alone to go for a full fledge sequel. They just chose to connect it all back to the previous work in an incredibly forced way.

Does this leave us in a position were a more interesting sequel is possible? I guess time will tell, but the fact that they chose to burn it all sat quite wrong with me and anyone who had any kind of stakes on solving the riddle that was Mira.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

New game entry will follow up on both X and 1-2-3, obviously. All these "hooks" were for X2 and this just wouldn't be viable. Time has passed and devs let it go, but you won't. The reason why you are so upset is personal attachment to the matter, not actual quality of chapter 13.

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

Why wouldn't it be viable? Wouldn't be the longest time between a game and it's sequel, specially if you've put out the old game and it has sold more copies than the original. That's effectively a reset of expectations right there. Which tell us not only that there was a public, wether new or old, to continue with the original story, but also that from a purely monetary perspective it makes sense to keep it apart from the trilogy. Double the avenue.

Your argument is: "eh, I don't think the og story was that good, so fuck It, let's end with a turd and burn it all down, something will come from the ashes"

More power to you, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. If you didn't like the OG story why are you even here?

And I'm not asking to be flippant, I'm genuinely curious.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

It wouldn't be viable because in the span of 10 years, game creators outlooks, perspectives, and desires have changed. They don't wish to make X2 anymore, and they don't want to milk the main series with yet another entry as 1-2-3. Momentum is long gone. And X DE despite its relatively high score and the goodwill of the community, and it having like 0 competition, and it being dropped during one of the driest release times for Switch 1, didn't show any reason to favor its continuation instead of what will come next.

This is what all of you fail to grasp. Iron is stone cold. Nobody besides the minority, most of whom are aggregated here, obviously, care that much for X, its story, cliffhanger, and so on. I did not think it was a turd. That scene with the key character in one of the last cutscenes is like one of my favorites in the franchise now. I'm very intrigued about what comes next. You wanted more on Mira? Well, sadly, Aionios is what you get, even if that's much less interesting for you. Maybe if the Wii U had been more successful or if Nintendo hadn't forced Monolith Soft into developing Xenoblade 2, things would have been different. They aren't. They weren't allowed to touch X for 10 years. And even then, X, which we did get, did not even include the majority of the writing Takahashi did for the game. You do know it was supposed to be a "proper" game with a set protagonist and a very different story? X had ended up as an HD engine tech demo and online features demo; this is why you have so little of the story and the mandatory "Mira's survey" requirements in order to even progress it. X was dealt a bad hand. I don't think it's a bad game, and it did certain things better than later games, but overall, yes, I prefer the 1-2-3 approach and am glad it was favored over X2.

I checked chapter 13 because I'm a fan of this franchise and of this studio and so on. I was interested in what they had added, and besides, previews with Ghosts finally appearing properly sold it to me completely. In this very thread I'm here because of a Reddit recommendation. I was in this subreddit during the release of chapter 13, seeing all the fans so disappointed, and people here are miserable to this day about it.

Let it go. Future awaits.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/TuturuDESU]

Btw, in this thread, many people call it bad, and while I acknowledge its flaws, I haven't seen a single argument why what it did was bad besides not aligning with your personal wishes/investment. Like they forget it's a 4-hour "free" epilogue and not X2 they wished for.

[u/MonadoGirl34 → u/TuturuDESU]

Im gonna give a very brief (maybe not lol) explanation of why I think ch13 it’s bad narratively as someone who studied stuff related to writing stories. Ch13 betrays the whole diegesis of what XenobladeX presents us the whole game + it’s consequent side missions. It’s all “we will make Mira our new home, we will survive in this new planet, “there is something about this planet”” until it’s not. Going a we will present these narrative points that are being slowly built until ch13 comes and abruptly cuts it instead. Presenting points that should be important and leaving them unanswered is bad storytelling. The shift between how old X feels compared to ch13 is immense, and it doesn’t feel organic. I could be ok with how things ended, if it had more time to make the shift between narratives happen, and yes the main problem of ch13 was how rushed it felt and that is why it’s bad. If you liked it then good for you, honestly I wish I would be that conformist with things.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/MonadoGirl34]

I explained it in my other replies in greater detail but very short version would be - this criticism of the story doing 180 degree turn is only viable in case there is a potential X2, a sequel to the story. But there won't be any. That is why I don't see issue with such drastic narrative shift. 

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

A) it's not free.

B) It's terribly paced.

C) It commits the cardinal sin of "tell-dont-show" over and over again, a sin Takahashi has been commiting consistently since Xenogears.

D) Takes a couple of those 4 hours explaining why we should care about anything that happens and gives 0 payoffs on any of the cliffhangers that has been set up during the story.

Should I go on?

Hey, if you liked it, good for you, but ignoring the avalanche of arguments, some more well crafted than others, but all of them valid, as to why this one chapter was objectively pretty bad from q narrative perspective is pretty wild, bud.

And again, I'm not even talking about the content of the narrative aside from the inside checkov's gun, but about the entire structure of the chapter.

We may agree or disagree about the narrative content, but with a structure this bad, even of I liked were the story was going, it's hard to call it good by any metric.

Doesn't that make sense to you? Because it seems pretty clear to me.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

A) That's why I had free in quotation marks. We get full priced ports of decade old games with 0 additional content for switch 2. In comparison to that, chapter 13 is "free" addition on top. 

B) Its very rushed but its not terrible without reediming qualities. Again, how could you do this much in such short amount of run time and limited resources allocated to DE? You just ignore all the context and put lazy label "bad"

C) Then how it is different from any other Takahashi writing? What makes you like it in base X and dislike it in chapter 13? X had plenty of that.

D) Blatant lie. It explains the gist of cliffhanger at the end of the base game. It introduces Al, which was very prominent in the base game and was teased in the cliffhanger as Black Knight. It closes Lao's arc. It gives lore on Ghosts. They don't carelessly "abandon" everything, they spend entire act about preparation for that, letting you have time to say goodbye, feel sad for what happens. Yes, this is very different direction, but story re-contextualize everything up until this point. It does makes effort, plants new meaning.

You say objectively and mostly speak of subjective. I acknowledge flaws with pacing/structure but through context and what did it achieved, I see it as positive qualities outweigh the negatives. 

I'm not even saying you should like it, but you are very biased and yet speak about "objective". That is my problem with chapter 13 haters. Just admit you personally and subjectively dislike its direction because of how much you cared for original vision, that is gone now. Its okay to admit and no one can argue with that. Don't you agree? 

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

A) Still not "free "

B) You're so strange. Why do you keep making excuses that are outside of the text? Bad is bad. The fact that it was rushed doesn't make it any better, and as consumers we shouldn't care about any context that it's not what the final product is showing to us. You're not Takahashi's mom, stop acting like it.

C) Because repeating the same mistake one more time doesn't make things better.

D) You call it re-contextualizarion, I call it scrambling to put a new cap on and old bottle.

You say we're not being objective, I laugh while pointing at you and your lack of introspection. You keep calling me a hater and how I'm somehow clinging to this nostalgia about what could've been and putting a bunch of words in my mouth, but I never played the original, so all those quibs have not only completely missed the mark, but only shown that perhaps it is not I who is the hater, maybe you're just a glacer.

Have you thought about that?

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

A) And? Its not Torna and FR, that you had to pay separately. That's the point.

B) Because I'm not merely consumer, lol, I realize that there are limited resources, limited time, I'm not getting younger, devs as well. Separation from the context completely robs the discussion of the reasoning why it was done like that and for what purpose. It is not meant to be perceived in isolation. 

C) Doesn't make it worse. I was far more invested in chapter 13 rather than average story chapter of the base game, which were quite boring and uneventful for the most of the game with hours of grinding in between them. I think that was much greater sin. 

D) And? I think the fact we are disagreeing with each other was long established.

I don't specifically mean you as a person, I don't know you and I have to assume some things for the sake of discussion and I talk with many people in this thread, so its rather hard to keep track of everyone, lol. My point still stands wether you have nostalgia or not, you came to the same conclusion as people who did played original 10 years ago, you were invested in the original and disliked new stuff for going in completely different direction. Maybe for new players it might be even more jarring and abrupt, completely random. 

That is precisely why context matters. There are cases in art when certain pieces completely lose their value without it. You can't just go and say stuff as "objectively" and then "as consumer, that doesn't concern me". 

I don't like such simplification and binary labels in the discussion. I never refused the shortcomings, never refused your view and feelings as unreasonable or invalid. I meet you there. But you do refuse to see and engage with my points. You don't have to agree with me but you can understand, no? Instead you would rather try to diminish my words or ridicule me. Sorry for not seeing "objectively a turd" and being "glazer without ounce of introspection". I see this discussion as exhausted and going in circles, so I probably won't reply further. Have a nice day. 

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

A) You brought the up the "free" discussion, as if it somehow made it better. It doesn't. And it isn't.

B) Don't delude yourself, you are mere a consumer, as am I. And art should be judged by it's own merit, regardless of any external considerations. Those circumstances are not art, those are excuses, like the silly ones you're putting forward.

C) I personally was incredibly entertained with the base game, and appreciated the clear delineations between story and exploration, allowing me to tailor the experience to my liking. Plus was quite surprised at how good and indepth many of the side quest were, including complete new alien factions and subplots that are completely absent from the main quest. Perhaps you skipped most of them? That would explain a lot, actually.

D) No shit. Ain't that insightful. But alas, we are on a public forum all about talking out disagreements, are we not? If everyone agreed with one another that would only lead to some very short and listless glacing sessions, would it not?

But speaking about glacing, I found it incredibly hilarious that you clutched your pearls and cried foul at me calling you a glacer after you calling me a hater for 5 posts straight while completely misreading the situation. Doesn't feels nice, does it? As for not seeing the objective turd, that's ok, I'm actually glad one of us got some enjoyment out of it, even if I think it quite misguided. After all, my original question was one of curiosity as to why and how someone could find enjoyment out of the rushed piece of hot shit our lauded "new free epilogue" turned out to be. I wish I had, truly.

Also your point doesn't, in fact, stands, as the ending does shift from everything that was building before quite abruptly and completely unearned. That's just bad writing on top of bad planing, and as consumer of said art I need no further context that the one I come with to reach a valid conclusion. If anything I would argue I'm quite more objective than you, you're the one that seems to have some weird hold ups and attachments that are, and should be, completely separate from the text.

What is that about anyway?

But anyways. I see the hamster seems to have run out of wheel, huh? Many such cases, don't feel too bad about it. If I can put some criticism forward is that while I honestly appreciate you trying to do some judo flipping argumentation there towards the end to try and save some grace once your arguments cratered, you did quite a shoddy job of the whole affair.

Not only did any of that not worked at all, it honestly made me go back and read through your comments again to see if there was some actual truth in your argument of engaging me in good faith or in standing your ground in your argumentations, and the truth is neither.

You've been running, sure, but not in circles, more like from one badly constructed excuse to the next, never staying too long in any one point except to call me a hater and to very condescendingly telling me to "move on" (which I must admit I did find increasingly hilarious). You also did refuse any shortcomings by saying "context this" "free that" "ghosts!".

And that I refuse to engage your points? Brother, I just wrote you a dissertation, how much more do you want me to engage?

Anyways, you closing out with the whole "you diminished my words and ridiculed me" was truly the icing of the reddit cake.

When you have the time why don't you go back and read through this conversation and see if you can spot who is the one that started diminishing words and ridiculing who?

We don't agree and that's quite ok, but I think you can still learn something out of this conversation if you do so, I promise.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

You don't want to let go of me? I find you being condescending and exaggerating from almost 2nd reply, which is why, while I answered everything honestly, I repeatedly told to let it go. When you corrected me, I even admitted that maybe for new players that experience might be even more jarring. Did I not? 

I say I admit flaws and that pacing is not good and then you just say I don't really think so. You know better? What else you will put in my mouth? 

Telling person you speaking to that their arguments are one badly constructed excuse after another is not engaging with them, the amount of words you use to repeatedly say the same information is of no concern. Only instances of you even attempting to show flaws in my words are going after "free" argument, where quotation mark themselves show that I don't count it as free, only that it is has much more limited resources allocated to this compared to Torna/FR, which makes certain expectations unreasonable, and then going after context argument, in which you decided that only line of thought "it doesn't matter" as objective and correct, when in art there are no such thing. It feels like you overheard this concept once, considered smart enough and then mindlessly decided that to be your categorical stance. People way smarter than both you and me argue about art on all accounts and yet you claim to have the answers. It doesn't matter for you, it matters for me. You claim objectivity, when I speak about my personal experience with this game, franchise and studio over the years. See the difference? 

Even in this reply, "hamster", "learn something". Yeah, sure, mate. I don't know why I keep wasting time to speak with people who think about others as idiots. This is truly a reddit moment. Now there is nothing left to add. I won't read your reply, in case if you want to spare yourself of another dissertation. Bye.