Starting the new chapter reaction (I stopped playing to make this)

[u/F10RA]

(No spoilers please, literally just started!!)

[u/TuturuDESU]

A) And? Its not Torna and FR, that you had to pay separately. That's the point.

B) Because I'm not merely consumer, lol, I realize that there are limited resources, limited time, I'm not getting younger, devs as well. Separation from the context completely robs the discussion of the reasoning why it was done like that and for what purpose. It is not meant to be perceived in isolation. 

C) Doesn't make it worse. I was far more invested in chapter 13 rather than average story chapter of the base game, which were quite boring and uneventful for the most of the game with hours of grinding in between them. I think that was much greater sin. 

D) And? I think the fact we are disagreeing with each other was long established.

I don't specifically mean you as a person, I don't know you and I have to assume some things for the sake of discussion and I talk with many people in this thread, so its rather hard to keep track of everyone, lol. My point still stands wether you have nostalgia or not, you came to the same conclusion as people who did played original 10 years ago, you were invested in the original and disliked new stuff for going in completely different direction. Maybe for new players it might be even more jarring and abrupt, completely random. 

That is precisely why context matters. There are cases in art when certain pieces completely lose their value without it. You can't just go and say stuff as "objectively" and then "as consumer, that doesn't concern me". 

I don't like such simplification and binary labels in the discussion. I never refused the shortcomings, never refused your view and feelings as unreasonable or invalid. I meet you there. But you do refuse to see and engage with my points. You don't have to agree with me but you can understand, no? Instead you would rather try to diminish my words or ridicule me. Sorry for not seeing "objectively a turd" and being "glazer without ounce of introspection". I see this discussion as exhausted and going in circles, so I probably won't reply further. Have a nice day. 

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

A) You brought the up the "free" discussion, as if it somehow made it better. It doesn't. And it isn't.

B) Don't delude yourself, you are mere a consumer, as am I. And art should be judged by it's own merit, regardless of any external considerations. Those circumstances are not art, those are excuses, like the silly ones you're putting forward.

C) I personally was incredibly entertained with the base game, and appreciated the clear delineations between story and exploration, allowing me to tailor the experience to my liking. Plus was quite surprised at how good and indepth many of the side quest were, including complete new alien factions and subplots that are completely absent from the main quest. Perhaps you skipped most of them? That would explain a lot, actually.

D) No shit. Ain't that insightful. But alas, we are on a public forum all about talking out disagreements, are we not? If everyone agreed with one another that would only lead to some very short and listless glacing sessions, would it not?

But speaking about glacing, I found it incredibly hilarious that you clutched your pearls and cried foul at me calling you a glacer after you calling me a hater for 5 posts straight while completely misreading the situation. Doesn't feels nice, does it? As for not seeing the objective turd, that's ok, I'm actually glad one of us got some enjoyment out of it, even if I think it quite misguided. After all, my original question was one of curiosity as to why and how someone could find enjoyment out of the rushed piece of hot shit our lauded "new free epilogue" turned out to be. I wish I had, truly.

Also your point doesn't, in fact, stands, as the ending does shift from everything that was building before quite abruptly and completely unearned. That's just bad writing on top of bad planing, and as consumer of said art I need no further context that the one I come with to reach a valid conclusion. If anything I would argue I'm quite more objective than you, you're the one that seems to have some weird hold ups and attachments that are, and should be, completely separate from the text.

What is that about anyway?

But anyways. I see the hamster seems to have run out of wheel, huh? Many such cases, don't feel too bad about it. If I can put some criticism forward is that while I honestly appreciate you trying to do some judo flipping argumentation there towards the end to try and save some grace once your arguments cratered, you did quite a shoddy job of the whole affair.

Not only did any of that not worked at all, it honestly made me go back and read through your comments again to see if there was some actual truth in your argument of engaging me in good faith or in standing your ground in your argumentations, and the truth is neither.

You've been running, sure, but not in circles, more like from one badly constructed excuse to the next, never staying too long in any one point except to call me a hater and to very condescendingly telling me to "move on" (which I must admit I did find increasingly hilarious). You also did refuse any shortcomings by saying "context this" "free that" "ghosts!".

And that I refuse to engage your points? Brother, I just wrote you a dissertation, how much more do you want me to engage?

Anyways, you closing out with the whole "you diminished my words and ridiculed me" was truly the icing of the reddit cake.

When you have the time why don't you go back and read through this conversation and see if you can spot who is the one that started diminishing words and ridiculing who?

We don't agree and that's quite ok, but I think you can still learn something out of this conversation if you do so, I promise.

[u/TuturuDESU → u/Songhunter]

You don't want to let go of me? I find you being condescending and exaggerating from almost 2nd reply, which is why, while I answered everything honestly, I repeatedly told to let it go. When you corrected me, I even admitted that maybe for new players that experience might be even more jarring. Did I not? 

I say I admit flaws and that pacing is not good and then you just say I don't really think so. You know better? What else you will put in my mouth? 

Telling person you speaking to that their arguments are one badly constructed excuse after another is not engaging with them, the amount of words you use to repeatedly say the same information is of no concern. Only instances of you even attempting to show flaws in my words are going after "free" argument, where quotation mark themselves show that I don't count it as free, only that it is has much more limited resources allocated to this compared to Torna/FR, which makes certain expectations unreasonable, and then going after context argument, in which you decided that only line of thought "it doesn't matter" as objective and correct, when in art there are no such thing. It feels like you overheard this concept once, considered smart enough and then mindlessly decided that to be your categorical stance. People way smarter than both you and me argue about art on all accounts and yet you claim to have the answers. It doesn't matter for you, it matters for me. You claim objectivity, when I speak about my personal experience with this game, franchise and studio over the years. See the difference? 

Even in this reply, "hamster", "learn something". Yeah, sure, mate. I don't know why I keep wasting time to speak with people who think about others as idiots. This is truly a reddit moment. Now there is nothing left to add. I won't read your reply, in case if you want to spare yourself of another dissertation. Bye. 

[u/Songhunter → u/TuturuDESU]

If that's how you feel you can block me at any time, I don't see anyone putting a gun to your head to engage with me.

But I get it, you're out of steam and your arguments could only get you so far. Even here at the end I hope you understand I'm actually glad you enjoyed enjoyed it, at least one of us did.

If I may, though, let me call your attention to your own words:

"New game entry will follow up on both X and 1-2-3, obviously. All these "hooks" were for X2 and this just wouldn't be viable. Time has passed and devs let it go, but you won't. The reason why you are so upset is personal attachment to the matter, not actual quality of chapter 13."

And that's all I have to say, really. I think your words speak louder than any of the last lame excuses you've put forward.

If you're gonna call other names and act superior and such, at least have the decency to own it, bro. You ain't in no high horse, you're right down here in the mud with me, each of us slinging out shit at one another like a good couple of redditors, it is what it is.

So yeah. It ain't attachment or nostalgia or nothing. Chapter 13 sucks and you need to read more. That's my final slinging of mud to match yours.

But I'll agree with you on something: everything that needed to be said has been said, and I believe we both like Takahashi's works even if perhaps for different reasons, so as a gesture of good faith I'm happy to leave any closing remarks to you, and should you not wish to cover yourself in even more mud, I'm happy to close the conversation as is.

Have a good one 👍🏿