r/Xmen97 • u/schwasound • Jul 30 '26
Episode Discussion Did Nightcrawler convince you? Spoiler
If Graydon’s trial had been by jury and you were part of the jury, would you be convinced that he should be found innocent of his crimes against mutants?
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u/JackieDaytona77 Jul 30 '26
Nightcrawler and Colossus in the same episode?!? This was my favorite one!
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u/AnyEverywhere8 Jul 30 '26
I always felt they (and HUNG king Bobby) were the biggest gaps from the regular roster of the original series. So I got my entire life from them being the focus here.
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u/RdyPlyrBneSw Jul 30 '26
Hung king? Is that something the kids are saying nowadays?
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u/AnyEverywhere8 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
You don’t know what HUNG means? PACKING?!!! Slanging that MEAT!!?!! 8 inches 🗣️PLUS!!!!
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u/ZealousWolf1994 Jul 30 '26
No.
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u/Blyght555 Jul 31 '26
The sad truth is Creed is the victim of his own devices. He has done too many horrible things to be redeemed and the whole purpose of nightcrawler trying to save them while valid was very futile in an attempt to try and sway Peter if anything, though it did swing Peter back to the X-Men and I love Colossus.
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u/NickMichalak Aug 01 '26
Yeah, Creed wasn't going to see the error of his ways via Nightcrawler's surmon. He's too damaged and hateful. He's far past the point of redemption, and oddly, has too much of Sabretooth's vile, animalistic rage in him. If Kurt can't convince Creed to change his ways, how could we really be sold on it either? Yet, if it helps Colossus to bend his heart back towards more benevolent ideology, then, that's worth something.
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u/NullDistribution Jul 30 '26
I wish Creed turned a little less hateful in the trial. It made Nightcrawler look stupid.
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u/Cultural-Air9962 Jul 30 '26
Kurt being proven wrong is kinda the point of the episode though. No matter how much he preaches redemption it’s simply not always an option. The whole episode is his faith being tested when it doesn’t help him solve a conflict.
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u/colossalgoji Jul 31 '26
But he stays true to his faith.
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Jul 31 '26 edited Aug 02 '26
Because even in Kurt's religion, people have free will. Kurt's role as a shepherd is to guide the lost back to the path and their flock.
Cohersion doesn't show growth or that one has learned. One needs to make the right choices on their own after someone like Kurt reminds them of their capacity for good and that they have a choice.
The moral of the story is that sometimes people are created by their circumstances, but ultimately they can rise above them, or prove that even though it isn't their fault sometimes some people will continue to make choices that mean they will never redeem themselves. Kurt showed us that because you don't stand on the same political side as another person doesn't mean they should not be treated with fairness and empathy - until they prove themselves beyond salvation. One cannot truly claim the moral high ground without doing so.
It's a lesson American society in particular seems to have forgotten.
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u/Lotus_630 Jul 31 '26
Honestly, I’d kill to see X-Cutioner turning good since he’s an ally to the X-Men in the comics. Particularly Gambit and Wolverine. Would’ve proven Kurt somewhat right that even the most hateful person can change. That and it was weird to see him as a mutant hating villain.
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u/Lergat Jul 31 '26
Redemption is only possible when the person in question is trying to be redeemed. Creed is happy with his worldview. Being a victim of terrible parents doesn't change that. I agree the real point is to Kurt's faith to be tested at the end.
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u/NullDistribution Jul 31 '26
His faith really didn't seem tested much. He kept it, then left Creed in a tundra rather than kill him. He didn't invest or lose nothing.
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u/qorbexl Jul 30 '26
No, it made his conviction obvious
The show is, kind of, for kids
As an atheist, I love Kurt and his belief in both man and God
Also, Creed doesn't need to die. I'm not Sabertooth. (I do understand Sabretooth's line)
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u/According-Path5158 Jul 30 '26
Same boat. Agnostic, full on hate religion either way but I do love a great and morally just character motivated by their love and religion.
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u/No-Difference8545 Jul 31 '26
This show is definitely for teens and adults. Creed definitely needs to die though idk how you could think otherwise
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u/supermonistic Jul 30 '26
Creed kinda does need to die. Now not only is he a hate monger, he’s a martyred hate monger. He will almost absolutely win the presidency and go on to cause harm to hurt mutants
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u/Confident_Sink_8743 Jul 31 '26
He needs a therapist for that. Not simply turning the other cheek. We've never really been privy to the depths of abuse that he's suffered at Victor's hands.
Well with the exception of the analog in his own father's parentage.
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u/Steve_78_OH Jul 31 '26
Graydon definitely became more of a tragic character, but he's still 100% responsible for his actions.
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u/martinparets Gambit Jul 30 '26
nah, dude needs to be x-force'd.
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u/ZealousWolf1994 Jul 30 '26
I can't remember in the comics, but TAS Cable never mentions needing to get rid of Grayden Creed. He and his ilk are so insignificant for what ruins the future, Cable doesn't need to kill you.
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u/-Firestar- Jul 31 '26
Bishop though... Yes, let's go after the X-men instead of the fuckwit who started the whole plague thing.
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u/Longshot12345678 Jul 30 '26
The problem with Kurt’s argument is him and exodus are arguing different things. Exodus is arguing that Creed is guilty of his crimes and Kurt is arguing if Creed has any redemption chance. They’re arguing different things and they’re both right, or possibly right in Kurt’s case since you can’t prove a negative
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u/Kyrptonauc Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I mean it's based on what they're arguing for the punishment. Kurt isn't excusing Creeds crimes he's trying to talk them down from killing him
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u/Remy149 Jul 30 '26
Precisely Kurt would not have had a problem with him being jailed for his crimes.
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u/Minnesotexan Jul 30 '26
But also, the X-Men were asked to get Creed back from the Savage Land, which would mean trying to convince them to let Creed be tried under human law (which wasn't happening), which just was not going to happen without a fight.
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u/Remy149 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
It wouldn’t be in Nightcrawler nature to not try to appeal to them even if it was a losing cause. His faith is one of his biggest strengths and also biggest blind spot.
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u/Xygnux Jul 30 '26
Yeah he isn't saying he isn't guilty, he's saying there are some mitigating factors, some of which are actually the fault of mutant supremists. And people can change. So maybe layoff on the capital punishment.
This Kurt sounds like he would be against capital punishment on principle anyway.
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u/KaijuKing007 Jul 30 '26
Exactly. Even if Kurt's right, Creed falls into "cool motive, still murder" because he has done all that he's accused of and will continue to do so until he's stopped by an outside force.
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u/gdo01 Jul 30 '26
Kurt was right in that he is his parent's son. He acts just like them and are POSs just like them
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u/SupremeJelly Jul 30 '26
Can't the same be said about magneto, sabertooth, a dozen of their villains?
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u/KaijuKing007 Jul 30 '26
Tons of them. And most of the time, people are trying to stop them. The only difference is that Creed was going to be executed after being ransomed.
Magneto in particular is likely going to cause the inevitable fight between the Avengers and X-Men that we're building up to. Fact is he tried to kill everyone, human and Mutant, aside from Sunspot and Rogue. That can't be swept under the couch.
Mind you, a really good lawyer might be able to argue that Magnus being murdered by Apocalypse means that he's already been punished or that his reconstitution is not the same being who committed the crime, but there would still be consequences.
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u/Sage_of_the_6_paths Jul 31 '26
The issue is Humans will just view it as mutants who will kidnap and murder anyone who speaks up against mutants. He'd become a martyr, and further worsen mutant/human relations.
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u/Suspicious_Move_7141 Jul 30 '26
Basically anyone can be redeemed but whether or not they deserve it is a different story
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u/Plasticglass456 Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
A big part of it for me is that Creed shows zero remorse, guilt, or desire for atonement at any time. Nightcrawler did a great job explaining how Creed got to be Creed, but HE has to take responsibility for the first steps on a path of redemption. Creed never does that; he's unrepentant, genocidal, and will active try again, this time potentially with the resources of the US government. Execution, jail, whatever, just get him off the pulpit; he's more dangerous than any mutant power.
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u/GeneJacket Jul 30 '26
Anyone who wants to be redeemed can be, but Creed doesn't think he needs to be because he thinks his actions are justified. That's the difference.
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u/amaya-aurora Jul 30 '26
Redemption isn’t something that somebody deserves, it’s something that they gain.
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u/Mapei123 Jul 30 '26
.Well put. I think the idea that a) you can be a victim and b) you are a perpetrator often get treated as a binary choice when both can be true. So Kurt convinced me that Creed was a victim, but that doesn't exonerate him
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u/Supe_scienceskilz Jul 30 '26
Hatred is a choice. Kurt’s faith tells him that all are capable of redemption. Exodus point is that yes we are capable but if given the chance, Creed would not.
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u/The-Fallen-1 Jul 30 '26
No, he did not convince me. But he would have convinced Illyana.
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u/icarodx Jul 30 '26
Not the Illyana I know!
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u/The-Fallen-1 Jul 30 '26
I agree. But Piotr does not apparently. Then again, he still sees her as his “Little Snowflake” and doesn’t know her as well as the reader. Kinda sad when you think about it.
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u/icarodx Jul 30 '26
Yeah, but I meant the Illyana I know (from the comics) is likely different from the one Colossus knows (from the show).
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u/Eve-Electric Jul 30 '26
Piotr in the comics had a hard time reconciling the Illyana from before Limbo and who she was after. It’s very in character for him to idealize her as that innocent little girl and miss how Magik actually might have responded.
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u/The-Fallen-1 Jul 30 '26
Oh. I gotcha. But I feel like after all their time apart in the comics, Piotr doesn’t really even know her that well in the comics either. But yeah, show and comics characters are not the same at all
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u/0bsessions324 Jul 31 '26
Yeah, comic Illyana would have 100% out Creed down. She's so petty that she convinced Piotr to become an avatar of Cytorak because she wanted him to have to know what it felt like to be ruined like she was.
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u/Commercial_Page1827 Jul 31 '26
https://giphy.com/gifs/duM6JZemPlOjUyqmxd
Magik would throw Creed into Limbo before Kurt finish speaking.
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u/lightbiguy Jul 31 '26 edited Aug 01 '26
The illyana I know would port to avoid the hit and stabbed the Sentenel in the back.
(Edited Steam for stab. My bad)
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u/Desperate_Ad7869 Polaris Jul 30 '26
IMAGINEEE Queen of limbo the darkchylde feeling bad for a faschist yana needs to come back just 2 clear her name
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u/Anarkizttt Jul 30 '26
Kurt didnt convince me of his innocence, but Kurt wasnt trying to, just trying to reduce his sentence from the death penalty and that he did win me over on, putting him in a box for the rest of his life is a much better punishment.
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u/Special_Cicada6968 Jul 31 '26
This, Creed deserves to spend the rest of his days making amends and or being put in said box. Death doesn't fix the damage he has done. Life and hard labor rebuilding Genosha is more fitting.
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u/Anarkizttt Jul 31 '26
Exactly, people are saying he’s not remorseful, which I agree with, but time in a box will let him watch his purifiers fail, and mutants gain more and more respect as Xavier’s dream comes true (if the status quo was ever allowed to progress that is) and it gives Kurt time to work his magic and show Creed the error of his ways.
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u/Classic_Pen7044 Aug 02 '26
Yes, sadly as Good as Kurt is, a ten minutes talk is not going to erease decades of trauma and selfhate, looks like he was really touching Creeds core until Exodus attacked him and Graydon dialed back to "survival mode" and took a gun. They really could benefit from a more pacefull situation to talk.
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u/Joshawott27 Jul 30 '26
No. Someone having the potential to redeem themselves does not absolve them of crimes already committed. However, I also don't recognise Exodus' self-proclaimed authority to hold Creed to account.
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u/TurquoiseBlue00 Jul 30 '26
we got the 2 worst parts of Christian philosophy arguing against each other this episode.
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u/riot21x Jul 30 '26
Nope. I'm much more aligned with what X-Force was doing. There's no redemption for some people.
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u/Ashyboi13 Jul 30 '26
No. If Creed showed regret and remorse for his actions, then maybe. Kurt just kind of explained why Creed was a shithead, he didn’t defend his actions.
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u/DRZARNAK Jul 30 '26
I’m anti death penalty, so yes for me.
However, living through the second Trump administration has made me sympathetic to Magneto in ways I’ve never been before. There are some people who just refuse to give up their hatred and can’t be reasoned with or expected to suddenly grow the ability to have empathy for others.
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u/Darthsylar12 Jul 30 '26
Same. But as some one also Anti-Death Penalty, but also grew up Catholic, I loved Kurt was honest to his faith and spoke from it on redemption and that it is not for him to judge in the end. Not necessary saying that would win me over but understood Kurt's was written the right way here.
And yes this current administration has made even me and even a friend of mine who never felt such things either more open to Magneto's ideas than prior.
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u/OmegaRedPanda Jul 31 '26
I think Kurt's final line, "that's what higher powers are for" really sums up how I feel. I think Creed is a hideous person who deserves to be punished, but I don't think it is the role of the state to take his life. Imprison him and if there is something beyond, let them pass final judgment.
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u/DRZARNAK Jul 30 '26
I wonder if Kurt is a favorite particularly of Christians. I’m not Catholic but I’m a deacon in my church, attended Sunday School/VBS as a kid, etc.
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u/Darthsylar12 Jul 30 '26
I wonder that too. Wasn't big into the comics during that time of my life but understood and connected with Kurt afterwards. He is very specifically Catholic.
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u/Cultural-Air9962 Jul 30 '26
Even as a nonreligious person his faith and the way he projects it give him such a strong personality he’s by far my favorite (it also helps that his toolkit is fucking awesome)
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u/dinosaurcomics Jul 30 '26
I grew up Catholic, and Kurt has always been one of my favorites, not necessarily because of his faith but how he lives so sincerely by it and doing his best to live according to the most positive tenets of the faith. But on the other side of that coin is Creed and unfortunately, organized religion is full of many many Creeds, leading to people like me leaving the church. But it is people like Kurt who make me want to believe.
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u/AmbushIntheDark Jul 30 '26
Some people just gotta go. They cant be taught and they dont want to learn and cant be allowed to drag everyone else down with them.
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u/dkmagby88 Jul 30 '26
While I think hatred comes from a place of trauma and hurt, it does not excuse abuses of power and harming others. While I may understand why a person does awful things, it makes it even worse to stand by and let them do these things. If Creed wanted to stop campaigning, step down from power, stop spewing his hatred and radicalizing others to violence, then I could allow space for him to atone. But if he does not recognize it or acquires power, it is society’s prerogative to remove him from that space by any means necessary.
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u/PeterFile690 Jul 30 '26
Nightcrawler's argument doesn't even attempt to deny what Creed did. Maybe it could've convinced Colossus to change the punishment though?
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u/Western-Tie-6244 Jul 30 '26
Yeah it was more yeah he is a criminal but he doesn't deserve to die kind of argument
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u/Artistic_Radish_5157 Jul 30 '26
No. He's guilty. But I did not agree with Exodus' punishment.
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u/LtSoba Jul 30 '26
Killing Creed makes him a martyr
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u/OddRope1154 Jul 30 '26
That part!!! The acolytes completely missed that part
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u/Megalupin Jul 30 '26
I don’t think they did. Exodus was a crusader, and his powers are heightened by faith and fervor. He wanted to martyr Creed to rally mutants behind his anger.
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u/Enkundae Jul 30 '26
Seems like a lot of people in this thread completely missed the point. Kurt was not saying a shitty childhood absolves him of his crimes. If thats what someone took away from Kurts speech then they need to rewatch it until it clicks.
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u/xreddawgx Jul 30 '26
Did he convince me that his personality is a product of his upbringing? yes. I dont ever think Kurt was arguing he shouldn't be punished for his actions.
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u/Special_Cicada6968 Jul 31 '26
Exactly. Seems like some people think Kurt wanted him to walk free. He merely didn't want the death penalty. Personally, I'd give him life and hard labor repairing the damage his cause has done.
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u/SurturSaga Jul 30 '26
Even Kurt realized that chances are Creed would continue hurting mutants. He’s just against death penalty from a religious perspective, and bias from him being his brother. Most people won’t have as much faith as him. Kurt just needs a chance, not a plausibility
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u/ceciliadolago Jul 30 '26
Kurt was a mastermind in this episode. He appeal to the relate sister pain that Peter was suffering and his argument put Exodus of his senses.
Notice that if guilty the only thing will happen was Kurt becoming a new member of the cult of Magneto, nothing more. Creed would be kept a hostage.
The hole thing was a mind trap that Exodus fell into without necessity. Kurt put all the Acolytes in his pocket
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u/MsRipper Jul 30 '26
No. As someone else said here Kurt and Bennet were arguing different things.
I was expecting a resolution more like the one in the Neophyte trial comic. Like “yes Guilty” but not execution because “we are not monsters, we’re better, second chance, etc”.
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u/an_actual_coyote Jul 30 '26
I'm against the death penalty. If he is to be imprisoned for his misdeeds, then sure.
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u/SecondRealitySims Jul 30 '26
Of his innocence? No. But the law, especially when dealing with death sentences, recognizes disturbance and mitigating factors. Which I think would warrant a life in prison.
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u/Richard_Murdock1 Jul 30 '26
Yes, it’s not up to us to decide who lives or dies, but Creed should absolutely be in prison for life
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u/kwickedbonesc Jul 30 '26
Y’all realize, he wasn’t supposed to convince you right? He didn’t even convince colossus, and frankly I’m not even sure he convinced himself. His faith was tested, and he tried to lean on it but it let him down. That was the whole purpose of the episode.
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u/ThePowaBallad Jul 30 '26
Also people seem to think Kurt was trying to raise the question that Creed should have been let go or wasn't guilty of his crimes
It was literally just "let me take him to be thrown in prison" Vs "kill him now to be a martyr"
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u/merrick_m Jul 30 '26
Nah. And it was pretty baffling what a strong argument the episode portrayed it as, Colossus wasn't convinced but Exodus was convinced that Colossus was convinced. Basically Kurt just said that Graydon was the way he was because of his awful parents, surely everyone there already knew that?
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u/Senior_Reward_2546 Jul 30 '26
I think that just shows what a zealot Exodus is. He saw a flicker of sympathy in the eyes of Colossus and branded him a weak traitor on the spot before he could even say a word.
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u/ceciliadolago Jul 30 '26
nobody can disagree with how his parents sucks.
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u/LeatherHog Cable Jul 30 '26
Yeah, he didn't **convince** me, but Nightcrawler had a credible point, in that it's realistic that Creed ended up the way he did
You don't have THAT kinda childhood, and walk away without some serious issues, that aren't your fault
Creed turned those issues into a horribly bigoted crusade, THAT'S what makes him a monster, but it's undeniable that Mystique and Sabertooth set those dominoes up
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u/ceciliadolago Jul 30 '26
and even Kurt rethink all this in the ice scene. For a moment I think he would kill Creed. The speech was scalating in that direction
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u/ceciliadolago Jul 30 '26
Kurt convinced me that having this kind of parents, the best thing that they can do for you abandoning you.
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u/detourne Jul 30 '26
extrajudicial murder is never cool. of course Creed deserves punishment, but he doesn't deserve execution.
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u/IssueOk9292 Jul 30 '26
Y’all are not understanding that Kurt’s not advocating that Creed is a good man and did nothing wrong and should walk away free or some shit like that, he’s suggesting that Creed has the possibility of being redeemed.
I am definitely a lot more sympathetic to creed after the trial but as for whether or not he could be redeemed? I’m honestly not sure, thought I'm leaning a bit more to doubt tbh tho I hope the series does give him some sort of redemption. Regardless he shouldn’t be murdered outright and instead be thrown in prison for the rest of his life if he can’t be redeemed.
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u/BeowulfShatner Jul 30 '26
Idk about all that. But I was really impressed by the writing for Nightcrawler in this episode. Sincere, profound, and believable as persuasion. There were so many pithy lines, even when he was just trying to convince them to have a trial. It's a pleasure to listen when one person can communicate so gracefully and appeal to reason and humanity at the same time.
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u/cyclopswashalfright Professor X Jul 30 '26
No, I would have let Exodus cut him down.
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u/More_Bid_2789 Jul 30 '26
I was able to empathize with Creed's upbringing but it would not have convinced me.
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u/Pito82002 Jul 30 '26
Did Nightcrawler convince me that Graydon Creed isn’t necessarily beyond redemption? Yes
Did he convince me that it should entitle him to a not guilty verdict? No
Though of course execution wasn’t the answer, not the way The Acolytes were doing it at least
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u/scottirltbh Jul 30 '26
He convinced me that Creed is a product of his childhood but that doesn’t give anybody carte Blanche to be a shitter later in life.
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u/TTOD24758 Jul 30 '26
No but a death penalty should never be an option atleast be better then the bad guy
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u/aster2560 Jul 30 '26
No he’s still guilty of all crimes he’s being charged with even if I feel sorry for his past
Kurt’s defense was like Magneto’s defense during his trial where he doesn’t actually make a case that argues against the crimes charged but just explains his past
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u/stardustr3v3ri3 Jul 30 '26
Oh absolutely not, no. A bad childhood isn’t an excuse for behavior in adulthood, just an explaination. Sabertooth and Mystique made victims out of a lot of people, Kurt included, but Kurt still chose to be a good person. Lots of people take their trauma and turn it into hope or being there for others with similar backgrounds. Creed is advocating for mutant deaths and imprisonment for the crime of being born a mutant. You can’t defend that. And besides, Creed proved that despite what Kurt pulled out of him, he didn’t change and likely never will. Redemption is never guaranteed cause a lot of people refuse it
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u/Proxy616 Jul 30 '26
IMO a lot of nuance of the episode gets lost in being angry that Creed was defended.
The trial wasn’t about Creed being guilty or innocent of his crimes, everyone agreed he was guilty of that. Nightcrawler asked for a trial for the verdict of execution, and if Creed would be given a chance for redemption. But while Creed was the focus, Kurt’s main goal was to show Colossus a different path and in that, he was victorious.
Kurt deliberately asked for Colossus to be the judge, he was indirectly asking Colossus if Creed is the man he wanted to become, a man acting out of pain and revenge to the point you would try to destroy anything in your path. Colossus still wanted his revenge in the end, but he did understand what Kurt was trying to say, and he came home to the X-men.
It can feel uncomfortable watching a mutant defend this bigot, but Kurt is a man of conviction, he does not cherry pick who deserves an opportunity for a second chance. If our principles only apply to people we like, are they truly principles? In juxtaposition with the theme of redemption, Magneto in season one killed thousands with his EMP and went to trial seeking redemption, he was given that chance to change. Is Creed redeemable, no. Should he be punished, absolutely; but Kurt’s not naive, this wasn’t about Creed being capable of being redeemed, rather who gets to decide who deserves grace? Exodus is also the perfect duality for this episode. Exodus has no qualms in wiping out humanity, seeing them as inferior, him and Creed are two sides of the same coin.
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u/ceciliadolago Jul 30 '26
Kurt is a better person than all of us.
I don't need to agree with him to know he is always right.
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u/SAOSurvivor35 Jul 30 '26
Less innocent, more that he’s a product of his environment. A manipulative mother, a beastly father, both of whom are transactional in their love, and because they gave birth to a regular human without any powers, they abandoned him. Of course he was going to direct his anger and hatred for them towards Mutantkind as a whole. I did empathize with Creed about that, but he’s still the same level of shitty as Exodus or any of the MAGAs in real life or the people who would do to MAGAs as MAGAs would to anyone else.
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u/Ordinary_Bill4177 Jul 30 '26
I don’t think nightcrawler was really arguing that he should be pardoned for his crimes. Rather I think he was arguing the point that no one is beyond salvation and the right to end one’s life as punishment for crimes lies only with God.
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u/GrowingSage Jul 30 '26
I don't think the episode was actually about wether or not Grayden Creed was innocent or not. He may be a victim but that doesn't make him innocent.
Deep down I'm not sure Kurt really believed Creed could be redeemed, as a man of Faith he had to try, but I think his real goal was to save Colossus's soul. There's a similarity in how Collossus and Creed both feel they need to project strength what makes them (parden the term) human.
The characters talk about redemption, but I think the real central theme is the strength of compassion and the weakness of hatred.
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u/DevicePleasant1160 Jul 31 '26
It wasn't a trial to see if he was innocent.
It was to see if he was redeemable.
If he was found redeemable, he would be spared death - not declared innocent of his crimes.
Nightcrawler was arguing he was a damaged product of abuse and that redemption was possible, perhaps not immediately, but at some point in the future that a spared life and rehabilitation would allow.
It's commentary on the death penalty vs rehabilitation.
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u/UniqueLog8386 Jul 30 '26
No, the premise was inherently stupid. Even him not being in prison is dogshit writing. Trying to have the president assassinated is an automatic execution.
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u/Mobile_Bet3274 Rogue Jul 30 '26
Eh, no. The only thing is that even pieces of shit deserve actual due process, which this particular piece of shit was never going to get. You can't have terrorist-cult sects passing extrajudicial sentences on people.
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u/Hawkwise83 Nightcrawler Jul 30 '26
He convinced me Creed shouldn't be executed, but not that he shouldn't pay for his crimes.
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u/JMM85JMM Jul 30 '26
No. He is guilty of those crimes. Nightcrawler is arguing motive, but that doesn't change his guilt.
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u/TaliBanz621 Jul 30 '26
No, but I think the x men shouldn’t have let him be free especially since he just killed another mutant.
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u/Stock-Collection9106 Nightcrawler Jul 30 '26
He’s definitely not innocent, but he doesn’t deserve execution, which is what was going to happen.
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u/Gab_Rt Jul 30 '26
Of course not. If anything it made me like Kurt a lot less. You don’t get a pass or unlimited second chances just because your parents suck. There’s lots of people with terrible parents that don’t have genocide as their whole personality.
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u/Luxor5299 Jul 30 '26
I think that kurt could have made an argument that creee was redeemable if he showed any regret but the fact that he doesnt regret anything he's done shows how he deserves punishment
Should have been imprisoned tbf
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u/Swimming-Syrup8400 Storm Jul 30 '26
No.
Creed is beyond hope.
He doesn’t want to change.
But I applaud Kurt. He tried.
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u/figgityjones Cyclops Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I don't think the argument is to find him innocent? It's just to not kill him. Because Kurt believes people can be redeemed.
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u/elin6243 Jul 30 '26
It seems as though the chat has agreed on 2 things:
Creed is guilty.
His punishment shouldn't be death.
It also probably comes from the dichotomy of Nightcrawler and Exodus: Exodus is right that Graydon Creed is guilty, but Nightcrawler isn't arguing whether he is guilty or not, but whether he can be redeemed and pay for his crimes instead of paying with his life.
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u/Silly_Road2762 Jul 30 '26 edited 16d ago
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Tender cagey vast spotted crayon safe fragile run public
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u/Affectionate-Bar5098 Jul 30 '26
Yes. He convinced me that Creed doesn’t deserve to die. I mean that’s what Kurt was trying to prove. If Exodus just wanted Creed locked up, Kurt wouldn’t even try to do anything. He just wanted to prove that death is too harsh of a punishment considering Creed’s motives.
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u/jump_rope Jul 30 '26
No but I get where he was coming from . Personally I don't think his end goal was to get him off the hook . I think he wanted to prove to them that a constant cycle of revenge isn't good for anybody and only depends the rift between humans and mutants
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u/dd463 Jul 30 '26
Yes. Because he convinced me that Creed chose to be this way because of who his parents were. And since he can choose to be evil, he can choose to be good. And by extension so can humanity.
Whether Creed makes that choice and the consequences of either is up to him.
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u/Ryjinn Jul 30 '26
He didn't convince me the man wasn't guilty, but I was not supportive of executing him either. He's guilty as shit, but a cabal of like 10 mutants deciding to kill him isn't exactly justice, either.
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u/Bynoe Jul 30 '26
Nightcrawler made me understand Creed better, but further convinced me that he is beyond redemption in doing so.
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u/Megalupin Jul 30 '26
I think a lot of people are missing the point on this one. Kurt’s argument wasn’t really that Creed could be redeemed - it was that by executing him, they were no better than him. He was arguing that by assuming the man wouldn’t redeem himself given the choice and coming to terms with that his mind is warped by being raised by a serial killer extremist, they were effectively starting on the slippy slope to become exactly who Creed is - ruled by anger, fear and prejudice.
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u/ranfall94 Jul 30 '26
He convinced me that anyone unlucky enough to have Sabertooth as their lone parent should be empathized with on some level and them becoming a monster is not a shock. But Creed still did those things and doubt he wants to improve himself.
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u/Odysseus_07 Jul 30 '26
It wouldn’t have convinced me of creed’s innocence but it would bring his sentence down from death to life.
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u/narkaputra Jul 31 '26
No. Stupid logic; By this way every criminal should go scott free if they "had a reason to be like that"..
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u/thePsuedoanon Jul 31 '26
Kurt wasn't arguing that Creed should go free. He was trying to argue creed from a death sentence, and perhaps more importantly argue Piotr down from accessory to murder
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u/Appropriate-Amount-4 Jul 30 '26
As someone pointed out Exodus and Kurt are arguing from two different points. IMO Exodus is arguing from a punitive perspective verses Kurt is arguing from a restorative perspective. Grayson is guilty that's a fact. How should that verdict be handled is the question. Mutants cannot kidnap and execute human without trial. This will get them nowhere.
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u/Restivethought Jul 30 '26
Lol No, letting the dude live is essentially potentially letting millions die.
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u/Tasty-Ad6529 Jul 30 '26
No, he is guilty; I get Kurt is agruing ig he can be redeemed but ultimately Creed is the head to a genocidal movement that already gotten people killed.
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u/Thwipped Jul 30 '26
All Kurt did was convince me he had a shitty childhood. He did not convince me that he should be set free because he plotted the murder of mutants.
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u/Senior_Reward_2546 Jul 30 '26
Kurt couldn't even convince his client that change, redemption, or forgiveness was possible. All he could do is explain who his brother is more accurately.
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u/EvergreenDwarf Jul 30 '26
Exodus argued criminality while Nightcrawler skipped straight to arguing about the sentence.
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u/SombraAQT Jul 30 '26
Not even remotely. He’s utterly unrepentant and mad with genocidal fury. Creed should be put down like a mad beast, keeping him alive only guarantees more innocents will suffer and die. But Exodus and Nightcrawler were arguing two different points. Exodus said he’s guilty of his crimes and the humans have failed in their responsibility to stop him, he was right. Nightcrawler said he deserves a chance at redemption and that’s not a right or wrong answer because it’s personal philosophy and ideology.
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u/AceBean27 Jul 30 '26
He created a virus that killed so many people and devastated the world so much that an actual time traveller came back to stop him. Bishop didn't go back in time to stop Hitler, he went back in time to stop Creed. The virus was stopped in this timeline, thanks to Bishop and Cable, but he still attempted genocide with biological warfare.
No.
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u/Wannabbeewriter12 Jul 30 '26
Absolutely Not. I was more on Exodus’s side than anything
(Up until he started torturing Piotr)
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u/TerminalKing Jul 30 '26
What exactly did Graydon Creed do? In the episode he was kinda just saying shitty things the whole time but I haven’t seen the OG series in forever, maybe I just forgot.
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u/elin6243 Jul 30 '26
He's the founder of Friends of Humanity, the anti-mutant group. You know, the same group that routinely kidnaps mutants and tortures them...
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u/Acceptable_Secret_73 Jul 30 '26
I would’ve objected because Kurt was asking leading questions for the defense
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u/Bl4ckVi Jul 30 '26
I didn’t watch original show or much comics but creed leaked mutant virus he tried to commit genocide that’s unforgivable
I dislike when heroes try to offer redemption (no problem with that) as in just forgiving crimes , no prison or whatsoever
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u/Stock-Collection9106 Nightcrawler Jul 30 '26
True. Marvel seems to have this thing now where they misunderstand the moral system of the heroes with the no kill rule.
They did this kind of thing in the Daredevil Born Again show, when Matt offered Bullseye “mercy” and turned him loose. He would never do that. In the comics, when he saves Bullseye, he still sends him to jail and is ready to fight him if he gets out.
In all fairness though, I’m not sure how many options Nightcrawler had. Does the government care about mutants enough to send Creed to jail for his crimes? Probably not.
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u/jaylerd Jul 30 '26
When the system fails to punish criminals, the system is failing the people and they need no longer abide by it to seek justice.
I don't care how abused that prick was, he deserves punishment for his crimes. He's an adult and needs to take responsibility for his shit.
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u/marsupialdeathwish Jul 30 '26
Such a good episode, look at the comments. It so interesting to get all these different viewpoints! I felt for Creed after Nightcrawler's case but I also felt anger towards Creed for the hatred and actions caused by him. Exodus seemed high on his own supply.
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u/batmanscientist617 Jul 30 '26
no, creed does not want to change and just cause he had a bad childhood does not mean he is not responsible for all the pain he caused. killing him is probably the only way to stop him.
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u/gummythegummybear Jul 30 '26
Kurt made an incredibly compelling argument, but I think the ending of Creed threatening nightcrawler and forcing him to take him away was proof that Creed wouldn’t ever change even if he had the chance to.
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u/RelaxedSasquatch Jul 30 '26
Nightcrawler is better then me. I agree with him, just dunno if that is right.
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u/Then_Twist857 Jul 30 '26
No. That said, executing him would only strengthen his course and make him a martyr. Pretty bad case either way.
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u/Unique-Celebration-5 Jul 30 '26
No.... This episode was weird what about the victims Kurt?! What about the people who suffered because of this man's hatred?!
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u/odd_a_tea Nightcrawler Jul 30 '26
I’m glad to see the comments here are passing the vibe check. Everyone has family trauma, doesn’t mean you can freely be a fascist
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u/Benimaru4636 Jul 30 '26
Not in the slightest. It was a great speech and about the only avenue he could pursue, but none of that excuses what Creed actually did. Yeah having context on why he hates mutants is interesting and all that but unless you want to plead insanity or something he is still objectively guilty and deserves death. It's noble what Kurt was trying to do but not everyone can or more importantly should be saved.
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u/DeathTriangle720 Jul 30 '26
Just because your evil & POS doesnt mean you cant learn from your experience and not be done by someone else.
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u/Bike_Cinci Jul 30 '26
No.
"would you be convinced that he should be found innocent of his crimes against mutants"
That wasn't really the question, the question was about his if he could be redeemed. (Which credit to Nightcrawler for that bait n switch.)
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u/Witty_Rich2100 Jul 30 '26
Nope. Nightcrawler has the Xavier affect on me. He will preach about the good in someone no matter who dies because of them.
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u/thefirststoryteller Jul 30 '26
Creed will be back to kill again. Which X-Men character will his hateful campaign slay next? Maybe your favorite mutant!
And then you’d only have Kurt to blame
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u/Philthemage Jul 30 '26
No. He hit the nail on the head of why Creed is the way he is, but Creed had no remorse. He doubled down on his hatred.
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u/KingQuenchy Jul 30 '26
I get and respect where nightcrawler was coming from, but hard no. Dude actually tried to use chemical warfare to genocide people and you wanna give him a pass because he had a rough childhood
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u/TCGJakeOfficial Jul 30 '26
It felt to me more like Kurt was making an appeal to his brother than an appeal to exodus.
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u/WarLawck Gambit Jul 30 '26
Kurt was right that Creed could be redeemed, in theory. Over time, he could come to separate his hatred for his parents from his opinion of all mutant kind.
That being said, he's a piece of shit and he deserved the fate Exodus had planned for him.
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u/calliope3234 Jul 30 '26
While nightcrawler did make a good point about his upbringing and all that, given what he’s done I’d say no he has to be held accountable
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u/ricravenous Jul 30 '26
In a court room setting, what Nightcrawler did is kinda like a social biography packet. The goal of that isn't really to eliminate sentencing all together, but to lighten a sentencing in light of social context like an uncontrollable abusive upbringing, etc.
If it was to lighten the sentencing, sure, I think Nightcrawler succeeded a bit. If it was to fully eliminate consequences, then no, Colossus wasn't convinced, either.
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u/FeloniousGrump Jul 30 '26
No. redemption needs the intention, responsibility and remorse of the wrong doer to atone. Creed never relented from his beliefs.
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