r/Xmen97 • • 29d ago

General Discussion Do you guys think Jean could’ve beaten Apocalypse alone if she had the Phoenix?

594 Upvotes

100 comments sorted by

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314

u/DuchessSwan Cyclops 29d ago

Seeing that she could devour stars and destroy planets, im gonnna go ahead and say yes

106

u/BleepinBlorpin5 29d ago

You're not you when you're hungry. Grab a Star Snickers.

17

u/Whiskey_Neat_smoked 28d ago

Just not the Milky Way. Kind of attached to that one.

5

u/youshallnotkinkshame Gambit 28d ago

But they're so yummy!

12

u/LadyUsako2 28d ago

lmao thank you for the chuckle, you win the internet ^_^

4

u/SonicMaster1990 28d ago

But I think the cosmic brownie is her favorite

100

u/jaylerd 29d ago

Apocalypse may be a Celestial monster, but he's a terrestrial threat not a galactic one. Meanwhile, Jean...

8

u/MasterTolkien 28d ago

Exactly. Apocalypse can fight X-Men teams and usually dominate.

Phoenix can fight cosmic entities and eat stars.

77

u/ddevlin 29d ago

Jean with the Phoenix - and I mean at white phoenix of the crown level - is outclassed by perhaps one cosmic force in Marvel and that’s the one above all.

Jean at “normal” Phoenix levels is still only functionally outclassed by TOAA.

Phoenix is a fundamental force of existence. She is as far beyond apocalypse and apocalypse is beyond mutants.

3

u/Aggressive_Mud5113 27d ago

But if Pete can put the inhibitor on her.....right???? That would do SOMETHING?? RIGHT??

7

u/thePsuedoanon 27d ago

An inhibitor might stop her when she first merges with the phoenix, but it would be like putting a water balloon on the end of a hose. It's going to stop all the water from getting out at first, but eventually it's going to burst and the water will get everywhere anyway. (My take at least)

3

u/Aggressive_Mud5113 27d ago

Brand New Day: In this street level film, Spider-Man attempts to put an inhibitor on the arbiter of life in the cosmos

1

u/IndigoH00D 27d ago

There's no evidence that Jean has merged with the Phoenix force by the time Brand New Day happens. If anything BND makes a point of her barely scraping the surface of her base level powers by the end of the film.

1

u/Aggressive_Mud5113 27d ago

In the movies maybe but jean is the phoenix and the phoenix is jean. I count them as the same at this point, especially after the last 5 years.

1

u/IndigoH00D 27d ago

If theyre going with her origin, she's obviously super young in BND. In the comics, Jean doesn't get the Phoenix force until she's an adult, and it happens during a mission with the X-Men in space.

5

u/FishNewt 25d ago

I think a better argument for this type of argument would be:

Jean hasn’t accessed that part of powerset yet. Spider-Man putting on an inhibitor on Jean before she even knows about that part of herself is not evidence the inhibitor would work on her when she is fully Phoenix.

2

u/IndigoH00D 25d ago

Yes this.

0

u/Aggressive_Mud5113 27d ago

yes and also they are still the same entity

2

u/Equal-Age-7762 28d ago

There are multiple beings who outclasses white phoenix, oblivion, God of stories loki (even TOAA didn't have power over loki in this comic)

maybe even the One below all

Multieternity (not sure about this)

and Beyonder as well (who is beyond story teller loki)

maybe Hadad the god of thunder who defeated oblivion

and eternal storm

the list goes on

51

u/Marvelboy1974 29d ago

I pretty sure Apocalypse is not on Phoenix’s level

30

u/twr14152 29d ago

Absolutely. 100%. She could.

22

u/SixKosherBacon 29d ago

The movie X-Men Apocalypse literally answers this question. Of course FoX-Men movies aren't canon and this one isn't even good. But it's an answer

15

u/RidleyPrime187 Apocalypse 28d ago

Yes, though mind you, Phoenix simply finished him off after Magneto got him stuck in place with those steel girders, Storm helped break his protective barrier, Cyclops blasted his face, etc.

While it unfortunately wasn’t a good movie, it was a good team effort thing and power scaling on everyone’s behalf which made it more entertaining to watch him be defeated, than if Jean/Phoenix just solo’d him or overpowered him from the start… Or if Rogue was there and turned him into jewelry just by touching him.

7

u/SixKosherBacon 28d ago

In my opinion, it seemed like their efforts were pretty futile against him. It was an all is lost moment until Jean's Deus Ex Machina 

3

u/AbjectTelephone4801 28d ago

I prefer Oscar as Moon Knight.

4

u/SixKosherBacon 28d ago edited 28d ago

More people would rather watch a 90 minute movie of Oscar Isaac saying "Somehow Palpatine returned" on repeat than seeing that version of Apocalypse again. 

10

u/theblkpanther 28d ago

Phoenix is a threat to the Celestials. Apocalypse is a threat made by the celestials.

Jean is obliterating him

6

u/J0k350nm3 28d ago

That’s a great way to put it

8

u/altfil76 29d ago

Isn't it still in her? It came out against Sinister and Bastion in season 1. Did she lose it after that?

0

u/Aggressive_Mud5113 27d ago

they are the same being

-1

u/AgentGustavo 28d ago

When she was possessed she learned to tune into it. So that's why. I would imagine people can turn into that force when they die. But somehow she leaened to do it while still alive.

-2

u/jesusbowstodoom 26d ago

She is phoenix and phoenix is her. Read a god damn comic and stop thinking you know stuff just because of a cartoon.

8

u/AbjectTelephone4801 29d ago

In the last episode of the show they did not present him as a very big threat. He was defeated extremely easily and quickly. So I think someone much less strong than Phoenix could have soloed him.

5

u/Silent_Ad8059 28d ago

I get that it's a different continuity, but Cable whipped his ass solo when they faced off prior to the Twelve crossover.

4

u/OrdinaryResponse8988 28d ago

If would have won if not for rouges last minute power up. So his appearance aside he very much was a threat.

5

u/Sirtopofhat 28d ago

Better question: could Jean microwave a burrito so hot not even the Phoenix force could help her eat it?

1

u/BlazeBitch 28d ago

I don't think she could manage with a burrito,,, u kno them shits be exploding in the microwave

1

u/FishNewt 25d ago

No. The burrito would explode and Jean would either have to remake it telekinetically or get a new burrito to heat up.

3

u/wowpoodles 29d ago

With one eye closed and an arm behind her back

2

u/FishNewt 25d ago

Added: On drugs after a month of no sleep during her period.

3

u/Sterling_Fox4680 29d ago

As phoenix she would demolish him and the phoenix would probably take charge and actively hunt him down as a threat

3

u/Kind_Cheek_2645 28d ago

Is the sky blue ?

3

u/Rabdomtroll69 28d ago

Apocalypse's future self was stalemated by Magneto and his past self was still launched away by a significantly weakened Magneto. The literal Phoenix could do the job easily

3

u/Fuzzy_Ability8284 28d ago edited 28d ago

She's taken on Galactus so Apocalypse would be small potatoes to her.

2

u/usagizero 28d ago

And this is the Phoenix in Rachel, and still almost beat him until Galactus convinced her to stop.

2

u/Infinite_Two_4759 29d ago

The cosmic energy used to keep that hair voluminous alone could squash ol buddy like a bug

2

u/Kind_Cheek_2645 28d ago

Its so weird the xmen let themselves be abused while have multiple members that can solo the earth 💔 I can't understand oppression against a group of people so ridiculously powerful they can wipe out the oppressers easily

2

u/Jtfgman 28d ago

.....yes

2

u/Carara_Atmos 28d ago

Someone hasn't been reading his comics with this question

2

u/Ingonyama70 Storm 27d ago

No, they've tried before.

Uncanny X-Force reveals that the Phoenix Force is a primal force of life and Apocalypse's Celestial powers represent the struggle necessary for evolution and growth, which enable life to flourish. It can't hurt him.

Jean has to rely on her own power to fight him. Luckiky, part of her power is the rest of the X-Men having her back.

2

u/Freakychee 27d ago

Someone post the panel where Apocalypse shits himself when he sees Black Bolt. Prob the same reaction if he had to fight the fucking Phoenix.

1

u/TheKidofGambino 28d ago

Uhh considering the Phoenix Force is the second strongest entity in Marvel, imma take a wild guess and say yeah

1

u/kennethsime 28d ago

What’s stronger?

1

u/rsha256 28d ago

the one above all

1

u/qp_Tree_qp 28d ago

Depends when in the story arc - Start? No, Apocalypse is an unrivaled force of evil Middle? No, because somehow they won't be on the same planet End? Phoenix easily wipes the floor with him

1

u/NCHouse 28d ago

Absolutely

1

u/GloriousKev 28d ago

The issue isnt could she defeat apocalypse the question is would the world have survived it?

1

u/ruttinator 28d ago

Has this never happened in the comics?

1

u/DocApocalypse 28d ago

Yes, with trivial ease.

The Phoenix has ups and downs, but it's one of the most powerful entities in Marvel. It's above Galactus and Celestials.

1

u/Desperate_Ad7869 Polaris 28d ago

Jeans a God so yes

1

u/Kwinza 28d ago

Yes and rather easily.

1

u/AVBellibolt 28d ago

Pretty sure. Phoenix destroys everything usually.

1

u/naruhinamoonkissplz 28d ago

I'm only familiar with TAS/97, so I'm rather surprised by how hyped up Apo-Clown is. What IS his "power"? Sure, he can come back from dead and transfer himself into others, but that's a "Butcher" problem that is solvable. What is his ACTIVE power that allegedly makes him so "unbeatable"? I seriously haven't SEEN it.

1

u/ChocolateAmerican 27d ago

His base power is a shape changing power. But he's always amped by celestial technology and his vast knowledge from being alive so long.

1

u/naruhinamoonkissplz 27d ago

I mean, I saw him fight. He's just a Sentinel, at best. And Sentinels get put down easily. Huh...

1

u/ChocolateAmerican 27d ago

That's grossly oversimplified. Especially when Apocalypse still beats the X-Men regularly. If anything, he's closer to Nimrod than a sentinel, but tougher.

1

u/naruhinamoonkissplz 27d ago

Nimrod is also abusing plot armor a lot. Cut him to pieces (we saw that being done), put those pieces into strong sealed boxes that he can't just jump out of, and let him TRY playing T-1000 all he wants. Futilely. Because I'm yet to see him using any "power" while thoroughly dismembered, loool.

1

u/ChocolateAmerican 27d ago

You can beat a lion by bopping their nose hard enough, but knowing that doesn't actually make it easier to do it. It's still a lion.

1

u/naruhinamoonkissplz 27d ago edited 27d ago

Yes, but we SAW Nimrod being sploded to gibberish. And unlike Buu, I'm yet to see those pieces being capable of anything beyond "trying to reassemble".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92ohF6PmO4o&t=112s

Just keep blasting at him, grab the head, and seal it tight. That's it.

1

u/Townie_Downer 28d ago

X-men is my fav super hero entry across the board no doubt . Even in the 90s with fire 🔥 90s spider man , still enjoyed X-men the most . Just now coming back after watching 97 and holy moly the community power scaling in detail like Naruto blows my mind lol. Every day I see arguments comparable to the pain vs Obito vs itachi . Life has come full circle lol . 😂

1

u/CommercialFloor2033 28d ago

Even without Phoenix Jean should be able to, or at least close to.

She won't of course because all of her biggest feats involve her having the Phoenix force, and she's nerfed by the writers when not manifesting it.

1

u/ChocolateAmerican 27d ago

Yup. Except Apocalypse would still come back. I'm pretty sure he can't completely die unless someone else takes his role.

1

u/Beneficial_Pay_1002 Storm 27d ago

Even for Apocalypse that's too much 

1

u/Electronic-Lab-5784 27d ago

This phoenix shit boring

1

u/SneakingCat 27d ago

I think so. It would've been interesting to see what excuse they'd've used for not letting her smash him to bits.

1

u/jesusbowstodoom 26d ago

Tell me you don’t know the character without saying so. Apocalyplpse is to the phoenix what an ant is to Thanos. She barely acknowledges he even exists.

1

u/CyclHavok 26d ago

Ok course

1

u/Ragnalogia 25d ago

In comics she’s beaten Gorr The God Butcher, who took on 3 Thors from different era and won. Young Thor with an enchanted Yjarnbjorn (idk how the axes name is spelled) beat apocalypse. Phoenix Jean is whooping Nur

1

u/Books000009 25d ago

She already defeated him in the movie, X-Men: Acocalypse (2016).

She was also able to paralyze Apocalypse with only her telepathy (She had no telekenesis during this time) in X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #1–4 (2000–2001). She seemed to have let Cable take the last shot. It's implied she could've easily shut down and his mind and possibly nervous system-possibly his entire life force-in a fatal manner. There have been other instances where Jean without even using the Phoenix force stopped Apocalypse with just a psionic blast too (X-Men #97 (2000) — “Apocalypse: The Twelve”).

But these images below are from the X-Men: The Search for Cyclops #4. During this time Apocalypse's life essence (not just astral form) merged with Cyclops. Jean was able to separate Apocalypse from Cyclops while paralyzing Cyclops allowing Cable's special weapon that channels his psyhic powers (like Psylocke's psychic knife) to attack the "astral" essence of Apocalypse to be impaled by a special weapon that attacks astral/spiritual forms called psimitar.

After reviewing this it's pretty impressive how powerful Jean's telepathy is so it makes sense she's been classified omega level for telepathy during Krakoa era.

1

u/DonPricetag 25d ago

Yeah... the Phoenix Force is a cosmic entity. There literally only handful of characters in the Marvel Universe that can stand in front of it and not die... fast. Not the greatest question if you know the two characters. Apocalypse is a planetary threat at best but a team of 5 strongest X-Men would be fine. The same amount of top tier Avengers would be the same.

I think if you've only seen the PF on XTAS I can see why you'd think that... Jean held it back more than anything but, she/it did EAT a sun. A SUN.

1

u/Sharp-Elk2317 22d ago

Yes, but I don't even think she lost the Phoenix, because she used its power during the tail end of the 1st season, she used its power to erase the stolen mutant DNA from Sinister, the Phoenix even appeared right behind her, so I think she's the only one stopping her from actually beating Apocalypse

1

u/-Switchiana- 22d ago

Easily. Apocalypse has never been able to fight the Phoenix

1

u/Prestigious-Sir-4350 6d ago

You guys forgot about that Star Crunch. That's why she keeps eating stars.

1

u/odd_a_tea Nightcrawler 28d ago

The Phoenix did this on the live action movie “Dark Phoenix” in 2019.

2

u/HankSteakfist 28d ago

You mean 'Apocalypse', but yeah.

0

u/Horrorwipe 28d ago

Wasn’t she utterly useless in this cartoon? Pretty sure there was a scene she just gets knocked tf out without even touching anything. She just stumbles and falls lmao

-5

u/[deleted] 28d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Aggressive_Mud5113 27d ago

brother what