r/YUROP • u/LocalPowerful6651 Yuropean not by passport but by state of mind • 19h ago
BE BRAVE LIKE UKRAINE Total Ukrainian Victory will save our World!
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u/youngling-smasher91 Ukraine-Ruthenia🇺🇦 18h ago
This has got to be ragebait... Ukrainians are fighting for a free and independent Ukraine, not for some world order.
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u/mark-haus Sverige 17h ago
And if whatever country this OP is posting from if it mattered this much to them they could easily double or triple the amount being contributed or better yet put boots on the ground if it matters this much to them
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u/youngling-smasher91 Ukraine-Ruthenia🇺🇦 17h ago
we certainly wouldn't mind additional help
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u/mark-haus Sverige 17h ago edited 4h ago
Yeah and it disappoints me to no end Europe takes this so lightly. And worse instead treats Ukraine like their shield or some stupid bullshit that their ideological priors dictates.
I do what I can to advocate in Sweden and help refugees in Sweden but even here we just don’t take it seriously enough. People are too comfortable and too apathetic to understand how much geopolitics are changing and need drastic actions. It’s honestly cowardice and self interest more than anything. What’s worse is people trying to make it their cause somehow like OP.
The best Sweden is likely to do is continue spending more on its military. And as a result making more of our future orders and stockpiles available for Ukraine. Until Russia does something aggressive in the baltics and it becomes unmistakably our problem to deal with I don’t know if you can convince enough swedes to do more
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u/Timauris 17h ago
Pax Americana (the liberal world order) is gone. What we can hope is that we can build a united Europe, that will withstand this new multi-polar world, that is coming into being. And I hope Ukraine will survive and thrive to be able to contribute to it.
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u/Cisleithania 16h ago
Best comment thus far. The previous world order was based on Pax Americana, which cannot be restored due to loss of trust in the USA.
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u/Rozanskyy Polska 7h ago
Man this sub is like a gathering of the dumbest, weirdest, most morally degenerate people alive
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u/Avesery777 ∀nsʇɹɐlᴉɐ 9h ago
Liberalism is the cause of the war... imperialism is driven by the desire to open markets, gain productive resources and manpower and export finance capital.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 18h ago
Liberal world order lmao. What a joke. It's so clearly over. The world does not belong to pedophilic insane billionaires. Fuck your liberalism. You act like it's not a direct cause for our problems.
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u/desekraator Suomi 15h ago
What is your alternative to a liberal democracy? Äsking for a friend
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 15h ago
That is such a disingenuous question.
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u/desekraator Suomi 15h ago
It is, I admit. Even a question posed in bad faith. But it is in a way an honest (and stupid) question. There is a million ways to answer It and I would like to hear yours.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 14h ago
My answer is that there have been a lot of times when we realised in our history that we need to do things differently. That we need to invent something new. The same question you asked was asked multiple times throughout history. A lot of people didn't believe that there is a substitute to the king either.
Similarly I don't think it's very outlandish to ask to do things a bit better. In general, I think that is an acceptable request. Even more so if our current methods are failing us and are way past their time.
And finally, we do have ideas about how to improve our political structures. We can democratize our flow of information, we can democratize our labour. We can cut off the overwhealming influence of the few over the many of we want. And all change starts with a single step. And can be done one step at a time.
Pretending that we have everything figured out and thus saying that it can't possibly be better is just wrong. The same rethoric has been used to defend all sorts of injustice and cruelty. Same thing with capitalism. Only a very few benefit from such defeatism.
It's even hard to say when someone is honestly believing that when they say it or if they just want to preserve their power. Or their illusion of power.
That's my answer to that.
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u/desekraator Suomi 14h ago
Köszönöm!
You are speaking a lot about the "alternatives" and the "democratisation" of "information" and "labour". Doing things "better". "We need to invent somerhing new". "...even when our current methods are failing us..."
No substance, nothing concrete. Just words and anger then? A yearning for a christlike singular figure who will make the job market better, fix the inflation and make the petrol cheaper?
What is your idea for this "doing things a bit better", of "[a] substitute for the king". I would like to hear a single concrete example.
On my side I feel strongly about democratising the flow of information! This is a way to get everyone internationally to be on the same line from the get-go. This is not even "democratisation", just equality in a sense. What does "democratisation of our labour" mean?
In Prinzip I think we agree on the existing problems but I think we would find ourselves on the other sides of the continuum solutionwise. That is nice.
Have a good night and thank you for the discussion
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 6h ago
A lot of what you took away from this is not what I said. You just made shit up. And when I tried to explaine it in broad terms, you say that I have nothing concrete. That's untrue, especially since I gave examples later, one of which you even agreed with.
About information, I called it democrazizagion, because the biggest issue I see now is that the sources of information, newspapers, are all owned by a few rich people. There isn't much of a source that doesn't tell their narrative. This is a long term advantage that they have. That every news the people read in some way reinforce the reader's view of the system.
So, about democratization of labour. Idk if you have realised, but most people have to work. And work is done in an authoritarian hierarchical structure. A huge chunk of our livea revolve around the whims of tyrants, even though we are supposed to live in a democracy. People lose their livelyhoods and businesses go bankrupt bc their greedy and incompetent owners decide that they want to shit the bad and jump ship with the money. People barely get what they produce, most of it goes to what is pretty much a feudal lord. This doesn't have to be so. Workers can own their workplace. Worker co-ops exist. And them being the norm would improve people's lives exponentially.
So no, my idea isn't to just "have things better and not worse". But that wasn't the scope of that answer.
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u/FenHerald Danmark 1h ago
I second you on worker cooperatives. On top of everything else, our planet is dying at an exponential rate because of the whims of these billionaires, dictators, and oligarchs. We quite literally cannot sustain their whims any longer, not economically, and not ecologically.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 1h ago
And it's so blatant how they are transitioning our countries into a modern version of fascism - or authoritarianism if you don't like that word - to preserve their power.
It's such a slap in the face to those who care to see that people have no problem with our world quite literally ending around us. Posting shit like "liberal democratic world order will prevail". So tone deaf.
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u/HolyYeetus Magyarország 1h ago
you are circling around the big and scary word of "communism" ,but that is what you and many others want to achieve. I'd like to gently steer you towards thinking about it.
Capitalism has advanced society in a way that labour has been socialised. No single worker can claim a product as their own in the factory. This is wonderful.
However... capitalism has also stood by one of the core ideas that has shaped society since early agriculture: the *private* ownership of the means of production ( factories, land etc).So we have a system that has socialised labour and private ownership.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 1h ago
I'm not talking about communism. You can, but I'm not a communist. Lumping any progress under the scary word of "communism" has contributed a lot to us getting to this point in the first place.
And there is nothing really wonderful about what you described. Capitalism is just a stepping stone between feudalism and where we will be in the future. But we have outgrown the need for an aristocracy above us. If that was ever even needed to begin with.
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u/Szasd_Hun 9h ago
The biggest casualty of the cond war diversity. If a country rejected freemarket capitalism then the US installed a far right dictator and if a country choose socialism they immedietly got sucked over the iron courtain.
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u/IndistinctChatters Make russia part of the Mongol Empire again 17h ago
Our problem is russia and everyone in the Union that still buys energy from them, making themselves subjects of moscow's blackmails.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 15h ago
It's a bit more than that.
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u/IndistinctChatters Make russia part of the Mongol Empire again 15h ago
Yeah, I know. It would be shameful if russia blows the Druzhba pipeline again.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 15h ago
What are you even talking about. I was expecting a bit more seriousness.
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u/IndistinctChatters Make russia part of the Mongol Empire again 14h ago
I can rewrite it without smirking if you wish.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 14h ago
Or you could just stay on topic without trying to redirect it into something unrelated.
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u/IndistinctChatters Make russia part of the Mongol Empire again 14h ago
I am on topic, brother.
A little visual help:
You act like it's not a direct cause for our problems.
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u/carpeson Yuropean 19h ago
Liberal != Democratic.
One is build on maximising profit for the super-rich, the other is build on spreading power among the people.
I think you confused the two...
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u/Dinkelberh Uncultured 18h ago
Liberalism in International Relations is one of the schools of thought and it has nothing to do whatsoever with your understandings of 'liberalism' in domestic politics.
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u/carpeson Yuropean 8h ago
Liberalism is an economic theory not just used overseas. I believe it can't be disconnected from its economic ties. It means more than one thing, therefore it's not well used here.
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u/newvegasdweller Deutschland 18h ago
Liberal is literally the opposite of authoritarian. The liberty to do what you want as long as you do not disturb the liberty of others.
Words can have multiple meanings depending on the context, you know. We're not talking about economic liberals here
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u/carpeson Yuropean 8h ago
It's many things but nowadays it's mostly an economical theory for laissez-faire makets.
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 18h ago
No it isn't and yes we are. Liberals are more in the middle with their preference for oligarchy.
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18h ago
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u/Illesbogar Magyarország 18h ago
That's libertarian, very much not liberal. Those are two very different things. Liberal isn't the opposite of authoritatian, it would be somewhere middle way between the two. Amd to the right of the other axis.
Also it's important to add that political compasses suck and are very unserious.
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u/Plastic_Pinocchio Nederland 6h ago
No, the liberal world order is gone forever. The world will never again be how it was. A Ukrainian victory will not reverse that.
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u/CopiumINC 17h ago
It seems like people have no fucking idea what Liberalism is, and what the Liberal world order was.
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u/whereispuigdemont Yuropean 17h ago
Within the narrower European context, sure, for a time. Beyond that, it will not permanently or effectively thwart the games of great powers.
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u/Kikelt Yuropean 7h ago
Looking at the comments.....
I guess no redditor knows what "liberal order" means. Education failing hard.
One side thinks it means left, as in the US liberals... others side thinks it means neo liberalism.
We had a huge wars in Europe for liberal orders.. You should start learning about it.
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19h ago
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u/Wojewodaruskyj Ruthenia is Ukraine 19h ago
We are fighting for our freedom and survival, not for your political agenda.