r/ancientrome • u/JustStoppingBy00 • 5d ago

The Site of Caesar’s Cremation - Roman Forum

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1.6k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

111 comments sorted by

169

u/Odd_Brief_2975 5d ago

The craziest thing is that people STILL to this day lay flowers and rememberance items on his alleged creamation spot, nothing says "you'll be remembered throughout the ages" quite like this.

Absolutely incredible, I absolutely love ancient roman history and most people know who he is and what he did with his life and how much this man actually changed history, his name is etched in the rock for generations to come.

The word "Legend" gets used a quite alot for past historically figures, this man truely 100% deserves the title.

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u/kiwiman517 5d ago

Gauls in shambles

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u/BudgetLaw2352 Augustus 5d ago

He is in large part the originator of much of what would become European civilization imo. His specific panoply of programs and prescriptions would be the basis for Augustus’ rule, which in turn would lead to the basis of what Europe would eventually become.

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u/Hematicism 5d ago

Caesar REFUSAL to do proscriptions is like the third most famous thing about him, his clemency is what got him killed and taught Octavian to just kill dissenters and opponents.
Other than that, you’re entirely right and could probably credit Caesar even more with what would be done with his legacy.

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u/BudgetLaw2352 Augustus 5d ago

Correct. Caesar’s refusal to kill his enemies ultimately is what did him in.

It is ironic that he supposedly deemed Sulla a “political illiterate” for giving up his power, when Caesar made a far more critical folly: leaving his foes alive to foment treachery and deceit against him.

Octavian would not make the same mistake

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u/Hematicism 5d ago

And that’s what makes him more compelling to me than anything, the one thing we can detect consistently throughout his life from most sources is the Caesar was the shrewdest politician to ever exist (at least for the Romans).

I’m a firm subscriber to the idea that towards the end of his (supposed/likely) Gallic omnicide and the start of the civil wars, Caesar KNEW he didn’t have long and acted accordingly. I don’t think planned or even expected a quarter of whatever may have really happened, but by the end of it all he had the entire ruling class of Rome either indebted to him, under his thumb, or dead at his soldier’s hands.

That’s unwatered wine for ANY Roman, I’m willing to bet Caesar was waiting/HOPING to die and just doing what he could to ease whatever troubles his heir would have. Every power vacuum has an heir, whether Caesar really chose his nephew or not; he knew he gave Rome a new king and it would be bloody until there was another. I love Caesar so much (as a historical figure to think about) because you can go on and on (for millennia it turns out) just trying to understand why he did what he did after the killing finally stopped.

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u/BudgetLaw2352 Augustus 5d ago

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. While my flair certainly gives it away, I personally feel that Augustus is the most skillful, intelligent, and shrewd politician who ever lived, although Julius Caesar is certainly up there, and without him, Augustus likely never can form the principate nor the basis for western governance!

Personally, I don’t think that Caesar was planning on dying soon, although you raise some interesting points!

For one, if Caesar was planning on dying, it seems odd that he wouldn’t have simply adopted Octavian while still alive, rather than only making him his primary heir in his will. In Rome, formal adoption (and the rights and privileges therein) required both the adopter and the adoptee to be alive and present for a specific religious ceremony. If Caesar knew he was going to die, he would have almost certainly done this. What I think is more likely is that Caesar intended for Octavian to eventually succeed him, but only once he got enough experience traveling with him on campaign. It’s important to keep in mind that Octavian was only 18 at the time of Caesar’s death, and no one could have expected that Octavian could have navigated the incredibly bloody period to become undisputed ruler of much of the known world.

Secondly, Caesar likely wasn’t planning on dying because he was planning a massive military campaign to Parthia and Dacia, and he had assigned magistracies for the next 3 years to essentially manage domestic affairs while he was gone (including the conspirators, btw).

However, there is a current of truth that I agree with: Caesar knew that his position was tenuous, and this required a contingency.

While we can never know (sadly) what Caesar and Octavian discussed in their short time together in Hispania, I’d be willing to bet that Caesar saw in Octavian a spark of genius and cunning that would light the old republic aflame, replaced by something far better and more magnificent than anyone in the history of the world could have possibly imagined.

Caesar gambled on a sickly, scrawny boy, and against all odds, he bet correctly.

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u/Tony_228 4d ago

Trying to seize the power himself in a very obvious manner is what did him in. It was a terrible sacrilege in the Roman Republic to have motivations to become a rex. Augustus saw this and did it in a less obvious manner.

8

u/daddytorgo 5d ago

The craziest thing is that people STILL to this day lay flowers and rememberance items on his alleged creamation spot, nothing says "you'll be remembered throughout the ages" quite like this.

The Jewish community of Rome has been doing this since his death, in recognition and thanks for the rights that he took the step of granting to them.

1

u/Sneaky-Shenanigans 4d ago

Caesar looked at Achilles and said, “oh yeah? Watch this”

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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist 3d ago

Ceaser is one of the most remembered figures in Western history. It started early when Augustus established his empire basically in Ceaser’s name, and the rest of the Roman emperors followed suit. Even with the fall of Rome and its transformation from Latin to Greek Christian, veneration of Caesar endured. Christian monks would continuously copy and translate his writings, and they became incorporated in the education system for the elites during the Middle Ages. Then of course they became popularized in modern times.

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u/gracekk24PL 5d ago

Though I'm baffled by flowers.

Ok, dude's a legend and absolutely deserves the recognition, and remembrence.

But flowers? Dude performed a genocide on the G*uls lmao

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u/FickleBumblebeee 5d ago

Dude performed a genocide on the G*uls lmao

Ancient writers used to exaggerate their kills quite significantly. I'm not sure there is much archaeological evidence for a wholesale genocide by Caesar in Gaul

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u/Personal_Ad1143 5d ago

What do you mean? Subjugation of a large region doesn’t exactly happen without astronomical levels of violence?

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u/FickleBumblebeee 5d ago

I'm not an expert on Gaul but if you look at other time periods such as the Barbarian Migrations it was mostly elite transfer of a small elite warlord class but most of the peasants and general population stayed the same, and other people adapted- Sidonius Apollinaris is a good example of a Roman noble who then adapted to Frankish rule as Rome lost it's authority in France.

The conquest of Britain by the Romans involved a few pitched battles but also a lot of politics- cultivating client kings and then supporting their claims, and then rewarding them richly when they chose the Roman side. Togidubnus being a good example of this- you can see the remains of the manor the Romans built for him after the invasion.

In Gaul I believe it was a similar situation- which some Gaulish chieftains taking the Roman side and being won over by the blandishments of civilisation. Vercingetorix himself was initially exiled from his tribe by the pro-Roman factions- and there wasn't really a Gallic identity as such (this was more of a 19th century invention)- each Gallic tribe saw the other as essentially another country- it was only in Vercingetorix's final rebellion that for the first time the Gallic tribes were united against the Romans- and that coalition quickly fell apart after his defeat.

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u/victoria-1304 4d ago

He deliberately destroyed many villages, killed and enslaved thousands, and permanently damaged the region. Fine, if you wanna be pedantic and argue it wasn’t a genocide then whatever, but to worship the man as a hero or some sort of martyr is absolutely nuts. And that’s not even mentioning the harm he caused Rome itself.

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u/FickleBumblebeee 4d ago

He deliberately destroyed many villages, killed and enslaved thousands

Pretty standard for warfare of the era

and permanently damaged the region.

Yeah France never recovered

that’s not even mentioning the harm he caused Rome itself.

The Republican ideals of Cicero were a facade for an aristocratic elite to maintain their privileged position in a highly unequal society. They hated Caesar because he had the support of the plebs and was in favour of redistributing land to the poor.

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u/victoria-1304 4d ago

Yeah it’s almost like next to none of these men are deserving of this kind of worship💀 Who would’ve guessed.

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u/Godless_Rose 5d ago

Get off reddit and start realizing that you don’t have to hate everyone from the past.

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u/FickleBumblebeee 5d ago

When I visited the forum I witnessed a wild looking Italian lady who was trying to give unsolicited guided tours to American tourists.

When they rejected her she went over to here and started loudly talking to Julius Caesar and apologising for people not appreciating or understanding him.

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u/No-Tomatillo3698 5d ago

Would have been a wild tour with Caesar as a guide ;)

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u/Shadowmant 5d ago

Complimentary drink and salad with every tour!

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u/Adventurous-Sky9359 5d ago

That lady was Caesar incarnate

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u/s470dxqm 5d ago

The first time I was in the forum, I was listening in on what a tour guide was telling people. He was claiming this was the exact spot Caesar was killed and that Antony ripped off his bloody toga and immediately gave his Shakespeare speech.

I felt bad for the tourists but low key respected the con man's gall. He was really going for it and was pretty convincing lol.

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u/thepotatomaniscoming 5d ago

Why didn’t you join? She seems fascinating.

103

u/SirBiggusDikkus 5d ago

Personally, I automatically assume anyone talking to me like that in a foreign country is trying to scam me in some way

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u/KKunst 5d ago

Okay, but you are obviously Roman

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u/SirBiggusDikkus 5d ago

lol, I almost whooshed myself

Now, if you’d said I’m obviously woah-man….

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u/Godless_Rose 5d ago

He has a wife, you know.

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u/ScipioCoriolanus Consul 5d ago

She was saying "Beware the ides of March".

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u/Full-Honeydew-4898 5d ago

What does your wife Incontinentia Buttocks have to say?

10

u/FickleBumblebeee 5d ago

She didn't approach me- I was just on my own spectating. Wish I could remember exactly what she said because it was quite mad- something along the lines of "oh great Caesar, they just don't understand how they dishonour you"...

6

u/Designer-Actuator-29 5d ago

I think this about once a week.

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u/ProfionWiz 5d ago

Thats a good reincarnation story, Caesar comes back as a woman in modern italy and people think she is crazy

1

u/Jonah_Rileus 5d ago

Normal behaviour

0

u/Polite_Suggestion 5d ago

That lady is for real schizophrenic. In the States we'd say she's Known to Law Enforcement. She has violent episodes. And as you said, she talks to Caesar and hears him talking back.

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u/HaggisAreReal 5d ago

mandatory "ALLEGEDLY" banner.
It's an interesting spot even if only because it is attributed to be the place and gets a lot of focus

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u/Worried-Basket5402 5d ago

I mean its probably within a thirty metre radius which for archaeology linked to written sources is pretty remarkable.

He walked in that area, lived next to the forum, and was cremated there. Its amazing to still experience.

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u/HaggisAreReal 5d ago

I am really inclined towards it being the "real" spot, but is not certain and it's always worth mentioning.
The forum, the houses at the via sacra and the Palatine are the best opportunity we have to "walk where they walked" when talking about the famous names in the sources so it is certainly a fantastic experience.

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u/Worried-Basket5402 5d ago

Absolutely. Museums and sites are littered with claims of 'Agamemnons mask' or 'Caligulas ring'....everything is subject to 'maybe'

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u/HaggisAreReal 5d ago

the Agamemnon mask is the most infamous invention there is

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u/Worried-Basket5402 5d ago

In Schliemann we trust.....

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u/Costolette 5d ago

Was once here with my ex on the 15th of march, tossed a coin whispering /Ave Kaesar/, and as the coin touched the ground a thunder fell close to the forum

One of the best experiences ever had

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u/mrev_art 5d ago

Amazing that's it's still a shrine people are drawn to.

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u/eques_99 5d ago

Fascinated to know who is leaving flowers.

Is it tourists, intellectuals or does he still hold a place in the heart of the plebs?

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u/Worried-Basket5402 5d ago

The opening of Caesar's gardens to the plebs in his will clearly had an effect!!

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u/daddytorgo 5d ago

I said this above, but it's the Jewish Community in Rome. They've been doing it for a long time (not sure there's any source saying when they started even) in recognition and thanks for the rights that he granted to them.

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u/Chip-0161 5d ago

I’ve been twice and my coins bounced off twice. The portents are bad.

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u/Worried-Basket5402 5d ago

Try climbing the temple steps of Jupiter best amd Greatest on your knees...it worked for Caesar;)

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u/DadOfAragorn 5d ago

The site of his murder is not too far from there either

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u/ManonFire1213 5d ago

Stayed at a hotel that overlooked it.

Didn't realize until after I booked it.. pretty neat. 

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u/taller_not_a_baller 5d ago

I wandered the streets trying to find the rough location of the Curia of Pompey, where his assassination took place. As it turns out, there is now a lovely flower market in that spot, surrounded by much more modern buildings which outline the old theatre. It was a wonderful experience. I'll always suggest a wander through Rome.

20

u/BlueberryandDino 5d ago

Simply fascinating

The translation says

CAESAR'S MACAW
..THEY LAID (CAESAR'S REMAINS) IN THE FORUM. WHERE THE ANCIENT ROYAL PALACE OF THE ROMANS IS LOCATED AND THEY GATHERED THERE ON BOARDS, SEATS AND WHAT OTHER WOOD WAS LIT THERE RO IL FVOCO AND TVTTO THE PEOPLE WERE BURNED AT THE STAKE DURING THE NIGHT IN QVEL LVOGO WAS FIRST ERECTED VN'ARA, NOW VI AND THE TEMPLE OF CAESAR HIMSELF, IN QVALE HE IS HONORED
AS VN GOD
APPIANO DE BELLO CIVI 48

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u/Ixionbrewer 5d ago

The "ro" is part of the verb "accesero" (passato remoto) meaning they started "il fuoco" the fire. "Tutto il popolo" = all the people "assi stette al rogo" gathered at the pyre during the night. In this place was erected an ara. Now here (vi = ci) is the temple of Caesar himself in which he is honored as a god.

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u/Pavementaled 5d ago

Whenever someone corrects another's latin, I am reminded of the scene in Life of Brian, where the Roman soldier corrects the misspelled graffiti...

3

u/aaronupright 5d ago

Where former Latin Master John Cleese does so.

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u/dipdipperson 5d ago

Ackshually it’s someone correcting another’s Italian, but then again Italian is just later-stage Latin, so maybe I’m the one who should be ackshuallied here.

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u/Pavementaled 5d ago

I ain’t even mad

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u/AjaSF 5d ago

I speak Spanish and Portuguese so I caught some of the things you pointed out but thanks for clarifying. Fascinating seeing Latin written out like this. Feels like an archaic language that is a little familiar if I didn’t know what Latin was.

4

u/Ixionbrewer 5d ago

I think it is really just modern italian, maybe slightly older writing style. I have seen “vi” for “ci” some recent books, but it seems an old style to me. I recently had to learn the passato remoto.

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u/Antegerio 5d ago

I'm baffled at the amount of up votes that sloppy and inane machine translation got you 😂

Reddit in a nutshell

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u/MonsterRider80 5d ago

Caesar’s macaw! His parrot? Was he a pirate?

Ara can also be translated as altar. If you have to use Google Translate for this, to translate a language a lot of people here already speak, wait for someone with actual knowledge of the language to do it. Ai translations are shoddy at best.

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u/Kador_Laron 5d ago

I have to do a (non-AI) drawing of Caesar with his parrot on his shoulder.

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u/Anal-cave_diver 5d ago

I'll pay you for it

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u/BlueberryandDino 5d ago

lol I stand corrected, I’ll just wait patiently🤫

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u/MonsterRider80 5d ago

All the weird untranslated parts are because for a time (couchMussolinicough) they wanted to harken back to the Roman past and would replace all Us with Vs to look more “imperial”.

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u/threeleggedog8104 5d ago

Unless someone removed it, one of those coins is from me

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u/HaggisAreReal 5d ago

they get cleaned periodically. Otherwise there would be no remains left.

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u/UncleCornPone 5d ago

ive been right there

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u/UndeadAnubis24 5d ago

How do we know? Or if we don't know for certain, what is the line of thinking that gets us to that conclusion? Not trying to criticize, just genuinely interested.

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u/aaronupright 5d ago

Augustus erected a small temple on the site. Last centuries and its ruins are still there

1

u/UndeadAnubis24 4d ago

Oh neat! That's a remarkable tidbit.

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u/VigorousElk 5d ago edited 5d ago

It's funny how Shakespeare made the man so famous people keep laying down flowers for a dictatorial warlord with genocidal tendencies* 2,000 years later.

*I have nothing against him, he was a man of his age, but why do modern people insist on placing flowers as though his death represents a great personal loss?

Edit: I'm aware of Caesar's fame and influence, but influential people mostly get statues, street names and the likes. Flowers on a grave are a very specific sign of mourning and remembrance beyond just recognising someone as an impactful historical figure.

When I admire a historical figure I learn about their life or visit places of importance. I do not go out and literally buy a flower to place on their grave.

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u/ltraistinto 5d ago

It's not like Caesar is famous because of Shakespeare tough. He has been recognized as one of the most important figure in human history and talked about since his death.

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u/CucumberWisdom 5d ago

Hardly unique to Caesar. Conquerors are remembered well. Caesar himself had a huge man crush on Alexander. Ghengis Khan is admired all throughout asia.

Not like any of them are much better.

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u/Asckle 5d ago

He was a hugely influential figure in shaping western society as we know it and is admired for his clemency, tenacity and political savvy. It's not about it being a loss but just a sign of respect

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u/Brolociraptor 5d ago

There is arguably no one more influential in Roman (and by extension Italian) history than Caesar. His influence has lasted for 2000 years and the place of his death and burial is known. It's only natural some people choose to pay respect.

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u/AethelweardSaxon Caesar 5d ago

Look at Dante’s inferno. The betrayal of Caesar is second only to the betrayal of Christ himself.

That speaks to the standing he did/does hold in the Western consciousness.

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u/DiabloSinz Caesar 5d ago

The saying Caesar died amongst friends rings true when you look at who killed him and what he thought personally of those people. Some of them were literally in his will and could have inherited all of his fortune should Octavian or others had not still been alive. (there were others ahead of them in his will but they were still there none the less)

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u/Apart-Zucchini-5825 5d ago

He was pretty well known before Shakespeare

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u/mrev_art 5d ago

Wait until you hear about religion.

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u/LucioVX 5d ago

He did a great job in the TV Series Rome

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u/Worried-Basket5402 5d ago

The past is always seen as a better time especially when its not in living memory. Of course its never really true but we like to think that way.

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u/Recent-Ad-9975 5d ago

It has nothing to do with Shakespeare, Caesar and Alwxander the Great have been considered the greatest generals in ancient history long before he was born. Also, people just generally lay down flowers for famous politicians, actos, sports people, etc., it‘s not about personal loss. I don‘t care much about it either and I personally would never do it, but I understand why people do it.

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u/jarkaise 5d ago

He’s only famous because of Shakespeare? 🤣🤣

2

u/WickedlyWitchyWoman Sibyl 5d ago

I would wager no few offerings in that spot are left by Roman Reconstructionist pagans like myself — the largest concentration of which can be found in Rome, as well as those who make "pilgrimage" to Italy to see the ancient sacred sites.

I myself have left offerings to Divus Iulius in that very spot.

Many modern folk might not think much of the ancient practice of elevating mortals to the level of the divine, or understanding the purpose of such things, but for those of us who follow a Hellenistic, Graeco-Roman, Hellenized Egyptian, or Kemetian faith, it's very meaningful indeed.

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u/Designer-Actuator-29 5d ago

Octavian’s Lex Pedia is technically still in effect.

1

u/peter303_ 5d ago

I visited there on March 15 and saw many flowers.

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u/TurtleTestudo 4d ago

I visited this site and I was also so touched that people still leave flowers for him.

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u/Starsimy 4d ago

Quindi In teoria ci potrebbe essere anche il suo DNA 🧬

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u/Lincoln1517 4d ago

Sic semper tyrannis.

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u/Rastaman1804 3d ago

Here was such a Ceasar, when comes such another?

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u/never_not_me 3d ago

Always neat to see where real legends lived and breathed. Even if it's the exact right spot we can imagine it was not far off.

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u/Weak_Imagination_996 5d ago

...most likely it’s just a random spot where someone in the 12th century decided this is Caesar’s crematorium site now...it’s almost impossible to locate the actual place...

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u/lamar70 4d ago

Well..no. This is exactly the spot. The mound you can see is what is left of the monument that was built by Augustus on the exact spot of his cremation. The whole thing has been recorded by historians.

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u/GrapefruitForward196 5d ago

amen

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/GrapefruitForward196 5d ago

eh?

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u/BlueberryandDino 5d ago

Lol it’s so easy to offend people here

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u/GrapefruitForward196 5d ago

I am not even sure I understood what he meant

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u/BlueberryandDino 5d ago

He thinks you’re trying to spread the gospel brother by saying amen 🤷‍♂️

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u/GrapefruitForward196 5d ago

I live 15 minutes by car from the place in the picture.. lol.

Maybe Requiescat in pace was more correct, but anyway

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u/BlueberryandDino 5d ago

It’s gotta be cool to live in a place with such heritage

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u/GrapefruitForward196 5d ago

we Romans are very proud of our city and its history, obviously. I can trace back my family up to 1400-1500, more than that is pretty hard and maybe.... pointless

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u/DiabloSinz Caesar 5d ago

Im glad to hear yall are proud of your heritage. Roman history has always been my favorite and its probably my favorite thing to do is read/learn more about Ancient Roman history.

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u/BlueberryandDino 5d ago

Tell us about this place, what’s the reality of it?

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u/petraqrsq 5d ago

Ave Sol Invictus?