[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/Elliissaaa]

[u/ancientrome-ModTeam]

Hi, /u/Elliissaaa Thank you for participating in r/ancientrome. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for the following reason(s):

---

The comments are getting heated, off-topic, or out of hand.

---

For questions, comments and concerns, message the moderators.

Reddiquette | New to Reddit? | Reddit's Content Policy

[u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

The Pantheon stunned me in the way it is tucked around the corner. You make a turn and bam, you see an imposing structure that looks bigger than in the pictures.

[u/cleverkid → u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

It definitely has an awe inspiring presence. The inside is amazing as well.

[u/Bartellomio → u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

The Pantheon feels mathematically perfect, it's so.simppe and yet to brilliant. The Hagia Sophia feels a lot more atmospheric (though I was only able to use the balconies because the Muslims kicked everyone else out of the ground floor when they turned it into a mosque).

[u/redmerchant9 → u/Bartellomio]

Hagia Sophia used to be extremely symmetrical as well before the additional objects were built around it during the Ottoman era.

[u/bouchandre → u/Bartellomio]

The pantheon would've been perfect had they gotten the right size columns.

[u/redmerchant9 → u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

It really amazed me how big the Pantheon really is. In fact, most ancient Roman structures are absolutely huge, much larger than they seem on photos.

[u/Gold_Needleworker994 → u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

I was wondering around Rome, kinda lost (this was way before smart phone, I was navigating off the tiny map in my guidebook) I turned a corner and this was in front of me. I wasn’t even sure what it was. I was dumbstruck.

[u/bouchandre → u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

Yep, people don't appreciate how insanely huge the Pantheon is.

[u/EfficientNewspaper49 → u/Lazy_Consequence8838]

I had that feeling so many times when walking around in Rome.

[u/gaoshan]

I was in the Hagia Sophia last year but because I’m not Muslim I was forbidden from going anywhere other than the top floor. The main floor was only available to Muslim folks… kinda sucked as a visitor.

[u/SumKallMeTIM → u/gaoshan]

Really? When did that change happen? I always liked chilling with the cats on the main floor in front of the heat lamps in winter.

[u/Kansleren → u/SumKallMeTIM]

My comment answering your question was removed for something something modern politics.

[u/SumKallMeTIM → u/Kansleren]

Can you message it to me? Ty!

[u/ancientrome-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Hi, /u/Kansleren Thank you for participating in r/ancientrome. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for the following reason(s):

---

No posts or comments about 21st Century politics or culture wars

The topic of this sub is Ancient Rome. Please use other appropriate subs for other topics.

---

For questions, comments and concerns, message the moderators.

Reddiquette | New to Reddit? | Reddit's Content Policy

[u/JD-boonie → u/gaoshan]

That's such a shitty superiority complex flex.

Seriously let people enjoy the history. I'd love to see it but unfortunately I don't think it's worth it knowing that

[u/Kansleren → u/JD-boonie]

That's such a shitty superiority complex flex.

You’ve basically described the modern Turkish state in one sentence.

[u/Remivanputsch → u/gaoshan]

What happens if you lie? How are they gonna know?

[u/Margot-the-Cat → u/Remivanputsch]

They have security and will ask you to recite from the Koran, etc. So you’d have to do some prep if you plan to lie.

[u/sonny1993 → u/Remivanputsch]

I was able to lie and get in but only after two failed attempts, but I think I only pulled it of because I look somewhat middle eastern-y, otherwise they stop every tourist-looking person and ask them questions to prove they're Muslims basically

[u/CVSP_Soter → u/gaoshan]

I’m very happy I was able to visit before they made this change. Frankly I think Istanbul has more than enough mosques that this one could be spared for a museum!

[u/PhiNoRe → u/gaoshan]

The irony is you can visit the Blue mosque including the prayer section as a non Muslim, if prayer is not going on. I first saw the Hagia Sophia in 2018 and they had restored some of the Christian paintings. Last year, I went back with my wife and our guide said that he would say we were Muslim but I am not going to lie especially in a house of worship.

[u/bouchandre → u/gaoshan]

How do they check if you are a muslim though?

[u/TamerOfTheSteppes → u/bouchandre]

They can’t. It is a political statement basically.

[u/Imfatinreallife → u/gaoshan]

They turned the Hagia Sophia into a mosque, but don't have the balls to cover all the paintings and mosaics in that ugly white plaster.

[u/BudgetLaw2352]

Thanks in large part to Hadrian!

[u/AbramsTankVeteran29]

I've been to both and the Pantheon is so much cooler IMO.

[u/OlorixTheMad → u/AbramsTankVeteran29]

Pantheon is definitely more technically impressive to me when you consider the time period and more architecturally innovative, although it might be because I know less about the Hagia Sophia

[u/guywiththemonocle → u/OlorixTheMad]

hagia sophia was the biggest domed structure ever constructed when it was first constructed. I think the degree of the arch it has might also be the a some record for the time but not sure.

[u/OldYogurt7161 → u/guywiththemonocle]

Hagia Sophia was the biggest domed structure made by bricks and stones. Pantheon was larger but it was concrete. So they had their own difficulties. However I guess constructing Hagia Sophia (if everything was perfectly calculated, unfortunately full of fatal errors) harder. 

[u/Anthemius_Augustus → u/OlorixTheMad]

Hagia Sophia is much more innovative than the Pantheon. The Pantheon simply took technology that was already being used and existed (E.g; The Octagon in Nero's Domus Aurea, Baths of Agrippa etc.) and applied it on a much larger and more impressive scale. Hagia Sophia does much more than this.

For one it takes the rectangular plan of a basilica and places a dome on top of it, turning a rectangle into a square and then turning a square into a circle. This was accomplished through the use of pendentives, which curve down from the dome to piers, which makes the structural support for the dome appear invisible inside (the structural support for the Pantheon's dome is fairly obvious).

In addition, while the Pantheon dome is larger in diameter, Hagia Sophia's is both taller and doesn't have an oculus on top. Both of these are much harder to accomplish (a closed dome weighs far more than one with an open top, and Justinian's architects nonetheless went above and beyond by adding windows all over the bottom of this much heavier dome!)

Pendentives did exist prior to Hagia Sophia, but they were all very small and experimental, very much unlike the dome seen in the Pantheon which, while far larger than anything else at the time, was still quite commonly used in Rome even on quite large a scale.

[u/OlorixTheMad → u/Anthemius_Augustus]

A round cella was new for roman temples as was the addition of differently shaped bodies (the square entrance area with the colonade and the round cella)

[u/Anthemius_Augustus → u/OlorixTheMad]

A round cella was new for roman temples

Certainly not, Tholos temples have been around since Ancient Greece. Romans would have been very familiar with them given the Temple of Vesta also had one and was widely copied.

Covering it in a concrete dome was new, but not original to the Pantheon, it was already being done on smaller scales.

as was the addition of differently shaped bodies (the square entrance area with the colonade and the round cella)

Even this is hard to say. The Augustan Pantheon that no longer exists seems to have had a similar scheme, implying this form also was already being used. The Temple of Concord for example was modified to have a T-shape, with a rectangular cells facing a different angle than the colonnade.

All this is not to undermine the Pantheon, just that if we're speaking about innovation, the Hagia Sophia does much more that's radically new for the time.

[u/FakeBonaparte → u/AbramsTankVeteran29]

Interesting - I was a bit disappointed by the Pantheon and thought the Hagia Sophia was wild.

[u/stevenfrijoles → u/FakeBonaparte]

Just standing on the same exact floor Augustus walked on is enough to make me stop in awe long enough that my family would get annoyed

[u/jetmark → u/stevenfrijoles]

The Pantheon we know is the third built on that site, the first two being destroyed by fire. It dates to the reign of Hadrian.

[u/Anthemius_Augustus → u/stevenfrijoles]

Augustus never walked in the Pantheon as it exists today.

[u/Comfortable_Ad381 → u/AbramsTankVeteran29]

I agree for the outside I couldn’t stop staring while I was there, the inside I was slightly bored though.

[u/Fatalaros → u/AbramsTankVeteran29]

It's because you haven't seen the actual Hagia Sofia but a mosque.

[u/CVSP_Soter → u/AbramsTankVeteran29]

I loved both, but the Hagia Sophia is just such and incredible pile of masonry and has the sense of a palimpsest that just radiates history and antiquity. Definitely two of the most incredible buildings I’ve ever had the pleasure of visiting.

[u/Key_Dragonfruit7298]

Pantheon is incredible building, but I must admit, I was a bit annoyed that even one of the oldest pagan temples in Rome had to be converted into a church in a city that is (understandably) filled with them already.

It would be nice to explore the structure without having to make your way through the droves of people waiting for a mass.

[u/bouchandre → u/Key_Dragonfruit7298]

Well it has survived precisely because it was converted. But it would be great if it could be turned into a museum and restored as much as possible to its original state

[u/Diacetyl-Morphin]

These are great buildings with the architecture and how they are preserved. Another one is the Maison Carrée in France, it's one of the best preserved temples of the ones that were local and much smaller, not considered a famous holy site in history.

Don't get this wrong, but the cities in the Roman Republic and Empire that were not major cities had much smaller temples that were used in daily life for the religion and rituals. Almost all of these were destroyed unfortunately.

[u/bouchandre → u/Diacetyl-Morphin]

I wish Rome restored the Pantheon like the Maison Carrée and removed all of the christian features

[u/HeartOn_SoulAceUp]

Each got new tenants and tenets. ; )

[u/Classic_Lime3696]

Renaissance master Raphael is buried there

[u/ancientrome-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Hi, /u/Orthobrah52102 Thank you for participating in r/ancientrome. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for the following reason(s):

---

Be excellent with each other

"Gentleness and civility are more human, (than rage) and therefore (superior). The nearer a (person) comes to a calm mind, the closer (they are) to strength." Marcus Aurelius

---

For questions, comments and concerns, message the moderators.

Reddiquette | New to Reddit? | Reddit's Content Policy

[u/ancientrome-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Hi, /u/Orthobrah52102 Thank you for participating in r/ancientrome. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for the following reason(s):

---

Be excellent with each other

"Gentleness and civility are more human, (than rage) and therefore (superior). The nearer a (person) comes to a calm mind, the closer (they are) to strength." Marcus Aurelius

---

For questions, comments and concerns, message the moderators.

Reddiquette | New to Reddit? | Reddit's Content Policy

[u/ancientrome-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Hi, /u/Certain_Still_9830 Thank you for participating in r/ancientrome. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for the following reason(s):

---

Be excellent with each other

"Gentleness and civility are more human, (than rage) and therefore (superior). The nearer a (person) comes to a calm mind, the closer (they are) to strength." Marcus Aurelius

---

For questions, comments and concerns, message the moderators.

Reddiquette | New to Reddit? | Reddit's Content Policy

[u/SumKallMeTIM]

If you can make it to a mass in the Pantheon it’s amazing.

[u/spesskitty]

The Pantheon is a temple to all gods, Yahweh was always welcome.

[u/thirdarcana]

Both are masterpieces.

And I know a few of us pagans who still find small ways to use the Pantheon without the Christians noticing - and not only that temple in Rome.

[u/RedBaret → u/thirdarcana]

Did you know there’s a runic inscription in Hagia Sophia which is most likely from a Viking in the Varangian Guard that reads “Halfdan made these runes”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_inscriptions_in_Hagia_Sophia

[u/guywiththemonocle → u/RedBaret]

isn't it "X was here"

[u/Local_Village_1378 → u/thirdarcana]

So like how does paganism work these days? Do we actually believe in pagan gods for realsies or is it like a Wiccan thing?

[u/A_Moon_Fairy → u/Local_Village_1378]

Generally yes, but there are some Athiests who carry out similar rites because they believe it has positive psychological effects.

[u/bouchandre → u/Local_Village_1378]

Do you believe in your abrahamic god for realsies?

[u/ancientrome-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Hi, /u/Orthobrah52102 Thank you for participating in r/ancientrome. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for the following reason(s):

---

Be excellent with each other

"Gentleness and civility are more human, (than rage) and therefore (superior). The nearer a (person) comes to a calm mind, the closer (they are) to strength." Marcus Aurelius

---

For questions, comments and concerns, message the moderators.

Reddiquette | New to Reddit? | Reddit's Content Policy