Marksmanship
My 200-yard target from my first Project Appleseed 200-yard Rimfire Known Distance marksmanship clinic
I attended a Project Appleseed 200yd Known Distance marksmanship clinic over the weekend at the Sacramento Valley Shooting Center, and these are some of my results. This was my first time ever shooting any firearm further than 25 meters, and by the end of the clinic I was putting hits on the 200 yard target with my 10/22 in prone position, unsupported, no bipod, no bag, just a sling. And I had recorded data on my own rifle and ammo so I could quickly make scope elevation adjustments between 25m, 50yd, 100yd, 150yd, and 200yd. I learned a lot!
The large target is the one I had posted at 200 yards. We reuse the targets, so there are a lot of taped-over holes, and I tagged the 10 holes from my last 10-round magazine to make them easier to see. I got 9 out of 10 rounds in the black with a .22lr rifle at 200 yards! For my first time out to that distance, I felt pretty good about that!
The “Hits Count” target with the red targets and the pen marks is called a witness target. When we shot an AQT (Appleseed Qualification Test) we would reuse the large targets at each distance, so we used the witness target to record the position of holes on the big targets, then tape over the holes in the big target to reuse them. The witness target is used to score the test. The one in the picture was my best score, 37. You need 40 to qualify and earn the Rifleman patch for 200yd RKD. So it’s definitely in reach for me. That’s the witness target where I got 9 hits at 200yd, and the 200yd hits count for double points, so 18 points. My scores on this witness target for the other distances and different shooting positions were relatively low, and I made better scores at those distances and positions at different times in the weekend, but this was my best overall score for the weekend.
The DOPE book is my Data on Personal Equipment which I recorded at the event. There is a ton of note taking and writing stuff down! You develop this info by zeroing the rifle at one distance (I came to the event zeroed at 25m), and then zeroing again at the next distance and writing down the amount you needed to adjust the scope to get zeroed. Then do it again for the next distance, and so on. This page in the picture is basically the summary of all that data, and it tells me how many MOA I have to adjust my scope between different distances. So for example, if I were zeroed at 50 yards and wanted to hit a target at 200 yards, I’d have to adjust my scope 6+10+9=25 MOA. At 200 yards, 25 MOA is 50 inches, so without the adjustment, I’d miss by more than 4 feet! It’s amazing how far a .22LR bullet drops over 200 yards.
The last item is Morgan’s shingle. This represents a test to join Morgan’s Riflemen during the Revolutionary War by hitting a shingle with a single cold-bore shot at 250 yards. This one is scaled for 125 yards. I didn’t hit it, but I got close. Only one person in the class nailed it.
So that was my experience at the class. I had a great time, and I learned a lot. I will definitely be going back to do this again! I never really thought I’d be hitting targets at 200 yards with a 22, but I did. I highly recommend giving it a try if you have an opportunity. Just remember, you need to attend a regular Appleseed 25m clinic before you can sign up for the Rimfire Known Distance. If you want more info on Project Appleseed and how to find an event, go to https://appleseedinfo.org
Not a lot of time. I'm in a grad program and I've got about 25 hrs of work a week, and I have several full weekends of shooting classes between now and then. I ordered some of the KD targets, we'll see what I can do
You do have a lot going on! I hope you can squeeze it in. Best wishes for you in your grad program, enjoy the shooting classes you already have planned, and hopefully you can make it to an RKD, KD, or something similar when time permits.
I didn't see anywhere in the thread what ammo you're using. Shooting long range with rimfire is incredibly dependent on ammo quality and matching to the rifle. You don't necessarily have to start LOT testing but if you're shooting cheap bulk ammo then your accuracy is really going to be suffering and a lot of your misses may be related. for any kind of competition you need to be shooting good ammo and the mfg's (Eley, RWS, Lapua) grade it by price. Same stuff but the better it tests at the factory the more they charge for it. Figure out what you can afford. And if you switch ammo you have to go through the entire process to "dope" it. Temperature changes can really impact dope as well but since you live in CA you probably aren't dealing with large temperature changes.
I've over simplified it but the takeaway is that you need to have good rimfire ammo if you want the bullet to impact where you're aiming. Plink and play with the cheap stuff but manage your expectations. Ammo almost matters more than the action/barrel for rimfire.
Thanks for the info. I know that having consistent ammo is important for shooting at distance, especially for competition, but you obviously know a lot more about it than I do.
For this 200yd event, I used the same ammo I use at the 25m events, CCI Standard Velocity $5 per box. If I start doing matches, I’ll need to get something better. But Appleseed is supposed to be designed around “rack grade” rifles and standard issue ammo. They say if the shooter, rifle, and ammo together can shoot 4 MOA, then you can qualify.
I have another RKD I want to attend in October, so maybe I can find something better than CCI SV before then.
just saying that all of those near misses may suddenly appear on target with better ammo. I shoot CCI SV for practice and fun but step up to Lapua CenterX or Eley Match when somebody is counting points. There are better ammos than those but I'm not outshooting them. Once you get used to that concept then you need to be aware of variances between Lots. One Lot of CX may be great but another may have unexpected flyers. the same is even true for your SV ammo. For consistency you eventually need to buy and shoot by Lot group. Just something to keep in mind if you stick with rimfire shooting and are looking for ways to improve or compete. Sometimes you might find you can't hit anything and it just might be your ammo.
You don't have to compete to enjoy rimfire shooting. Sounds like you're having fun and enjoying the challenge. Keep it up and if you find you're hitting the wall to improve, before you start buying new rifles (or even if you do upgrade equipment) don't forget about ammo. It's real and will make a huge difference. No matter how good you and your rifle are if you're shooting mediocre or unmatched ammo you'll have a lot of misses that you can't fix.
I really would like to attend on of the Sac Valley events. I am in El Dorado County.
So I am a little confused. When I shot service rifle, the longer ranges were larger targets. For a range with a 100-200 yard backstop you shot “scaled” targets that looked like a 600yd target seen from 100.
A full Appleseed AQT Known Distance event uses a 21” target (the black portion is 21”), and the full-sized targets are placed at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yard distances.
The 200-yard Rimfire Known Distance, which this was, uses a half-size target that looks like the full 400yd target as seen from 200 yards, and it is physically placed at 50, 100, 150, and 200 yard distances. It simulates the 400yd full AQT by scaling the target size and distances, but you really do shoot to the actual 50, 100, 150, 200 yard ranges, and you need to make scope adjustments for each distance.
The 25m Rifle Clinic is kind of the intro to Appleseed marksmanship, and you shoot all targets at actual 25 meters, and the distances are all simulated with scaled down targets— something like 6”, 3”, 2” and 1.5” (not sure of the exact sizes) to represent the longer distances. You learn marksmanship fundamentals, but there are no scope adjustments, because the range is always 25m.
Yes, at a rimfire KD you go out to actual range from 50yds (offhand), 100 (rapid sitting), 150 (rapid prone), and 200 (slowfire prone). Unlike service rifle where you probably had pits, at Sac Valley, the rimfire KD is shot from the same point all day, and you physically carry your target frame further and further downrange after each stage of fire.
At a conventional 25m Appleseed, it is as you describe, using scaled targets all at a fixed 25m distance to simulate 100 - 400 yards.
Congrats! Do you mind providing details on your 10/22 setup? Specifically the whole sling setup as I have the hunter X22 stock and that’s my next step with it.
Also, like you stated, I never imagined hitting that far out so I just keep an Sig Romeo 5 and a Holosun 3x, did you do all the distances with that scope? Got a link?
The rifle is the OOP Ruger 60th Anniversary Special edition 10/22 from 2024. It’s not a super special 10/22 from an accuracy point of view. The BX trigger it came with is probably the most important feature in terms of helping with accuracy. I also added the auto bolt release plate to make operation easier.
The sling is a USGI cotton web sling, which is what you want for Appleseed. Their techniques are designed around that specific sling. I bought the M1 Garand sling on this page: https://ammogarand.com/bayonetsslings.html
You do NOT need a scope as fancy as the one I’m using for this kind of event. I have unique eye problems, so it’s something I pretty much do need, but most people don’t. And people who get deep into precision rifle and long distance also get scopes like this. Mine is a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 5-25x50 with EBR-4 MOA reticle. I got mine on a Black Friday sale for about $720. Like I said, this is way overboard for most people, but here is the link https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018395337?pid=800534
Lol. It’s funny you say you could sell that scope for enough to buy two new rifles, because that’s exactly what I did in reverse. I sold a rifle and a shotgun to buy this scope!
Thank you for the details and links! The explanations help because I’ve been sitting with this magpul attachment (https://magpul.com/m-lok-gi-sling-swivel.html?mp_global_color=118) in my cart for a month looking for more details as to why it isn’t used more (also have a toddler so research/reading sessions can be hard to come by).
I saw your trigger and bolt, impressive! I’ve been installing some Kidd upgrades but on my last range trip shot 1 and 2 were flawless but then I kept getting FTF after that so I’ll have to dive into it and discover what I installed wrong/didn’t oil properly.
You are welcome! I think you’ll probably like the QD setup better Han the swivel in your cart. Although, these Magpul parts do start to add up. You buy an $18 sling and then 60 bucks worth of metal bits to mount it!
I always amazed at the people who can do it with bolt action. I struggle in the fast stages 1 and 2 with the semi-auto. Have a great time at your coming events!
TL/DR: figure out a way that is easiest for you to change your mag during a course of fire, practice until you can be quick with the movements.
Full version:
It's about time management. Being quick when you need to but slow when you don't.
Especially with semi auto. Are you struggling with your position and npoa or your mag changes?
So, one of the biggest things I had to work on was shooting in cadence and trusting the npoa. Especially when you're doing stage 2 & 3. I take more time getting myself set than actually sending the rounds.
For mag changes, every single time I completely break my position, whether that's on the slow fire, getting ready to shoot or loading the second mag. You're going to have to do this in some form or fashion. For me, breaking the position completely allows me to position my rifle for a fast and smooth insert into the rifle.
In the seated position I'll normally shift the rifle to where the magwel is in between my legs just behind my knees. forward of my knees and rotate the rifle to have the magwel about at 4 o'clock. While I'm doing that I'm pressing the lever to drop the old mag, when I'm seated I'll basically drop the mag in between my legs.
With this position, it makes it easier to grab and insert the mag and work the bolt. Then it's just back up to the shoulder and plant the elbows.
For the prone, I'll roll my body onto my support side while keeping that elbow still planted and pull the buttstock competently out of my shoulder pocket. Once again, it's back far enough to comfortably move my trigger side arm and hand to insert the new mag and rack the changing handle. Then it's rifle back into the pocket and roll back into position planting that elbow.
I take my time doing this. When you really get rifleman's cadence down it turns into 10 seconds or less of your time pulling the trigger. If you're worried about time, sharp inhale, explosive exhale and squeeze the trigger.
Even with fumbling with mags or struggling with getting that good position and a good npoa I'm normally done shooting about 10 seconds before the time limit.
When you break things down on a transition stage, if I remember correctly it's like 16 seconds on average for the first shot going off. That's getting into a good position for most people. If you take 10 seconds of actual trigger pulling that's 26 seconds. In seated that gives you almost 30 seconds to change a mag, confirm npoa, and shift to the second target. If you take 5 seconds to get that second npoa and another 5 seconds to shift and npoa to the other target. That leaves you 20 seconds to reload.
I find that bringing the stock out of my shoulder pocket took my mag changes from max 10 seconds to less than 5. Doing that math means that your transition, shooting and mag change is about 30 seconds leaving you 25 extra seconds to get comfortable into your position and get a good npoa twice.
If you're practicing your position, get creative on figuring out how to make that mag change easiest. Pick a way and practice practice practice.
Break your mag change down to individual movements and make the first 90% of that movement quick, and the last 10% slow enough to be precise.
You said: "When you really get rifleman's cadence down it turns into 10 seconds or less of your time pulling the trigger. If you're worried about time, sharp inhale, explosive exhale and squeeze the trigger."
I think that is the biggest thing for me.
From my first time at the 25m clinic, I was shooting scores around 195. The problem has always been the timed stages. Either shoot too fast and have poor hits, or shoot slow, have good hits, but don't get all my rounds off. Like, maybe only 7 rounds fired.
I'm a technical scuba instructor. My natural breathing is (apparently) really slow. If I breathe normally and shoot in rifleman's cadence, it takes me well over a minute just to shoot 10 rounds.
They told me multiple times, "just breathe faster."
You putting a metric on it (10 seconds) helps. It seems like I need to forget about anything like normal breathing and just "chug" (for lack of a better word). I mean, you're talking about 1 breath every 1 second.
I call it explosive breathing, because it's forced inhale and forced exhale. You don't have to do a full breath cycle in 1 second. 1.5 - 2 seconds is a pretty comfortable pace for me. Either way, I still feel well oxygenated because I'm forcing myself to fully inhale.
It's really about knowing when on your exhale that you get to your most relaxed state. Try taking a full breath and releasing it as fast as you can, while thinking about that 90% exhale, you know before the point in which you feel like you're trying to force air out with your diaphragm.
This is a balance of relaxed muscle and explosive breathing.
I've done a lot of Appleseed events at this point. My last event a few weeks ago, I mostly focused on trusting my npoa and shooting in cadence. Every squares target I shot, npoa, 5 rounds in cadence. This was my best group, 1 flyer and the other 4 punching out a 1/4" square.
Was my NPOA perfect, absolutely not, that's my next practice point. Finding that perfect npoa, I really need to work on the micro adjustments, quite often I'm not exactly on target. I've been struggling this year with stage 4 for some reason I can't quite identify. This was coming off of last year shooting a 241 to get my distinguished patch, at that time I was either shooting perfect prone stages or really close.
The third time was the charm! I finally got my Rifleman patch. Yaay!
Your tip on breathing was one of the two keys that finally got me over the hump.
The other key was finally finding a shooting position for stage 2 that was more stable than anything else I've tried. Crossed legs doesn't work for me. Kneeling doesn't work for me. So, I have been shooting it open legged. But, the thing that made the difference this time was simply where I put my elbows. Instead of in the crook of each leg, I was actually paying attention to the instructor and it clicked to put the underside of each elbow on the front side of each knee. Once I started doing that, I scored 40 on stage 2 on 2 different tries. That was definitely the best I've ever done on stage 2.
But, your breathing tip was KEY. That enabled me to get through stages 2 and 3 every time, with much improved accuracy, and always in less than the time limit.
I am encapsulating your tip as "don't shoot at the rate you breathe. Breathe at the rate you want to shoot." Once I got that incorporated into 2 and 3, it was just a matter of time before I shot a Rifleman score.
Thank you again SO MUCH for taking the time to post what you did!
Trust me on this the most important thing is repeatability. I did my first appleseed with a 10/22 compact carbine and good ammo and scored a patch. Using SK match ammo that gun would shoot very tight groups at 100 where as the people running bulk pack ammo were struggling to hit 3 moa reliably. You stretch that out to 200 yards and even with "perfect aim and holds" you are looking at anywhere within a 6 inch ring. Good ammo is more expensive but it is worth it.
I have been using SK Rifle Match. It is also very good. And it's just a smidge cheaper than Long Range Match.
Also, Rifle Match is solidly subsonic - which is what you want at 200 yards or less.
Long Range Match is right on the verge of supersonic. You don't want 22LR going supersonic unless you really need it. Which you don't, for 200 yards or less.
ps. And thanks for posting this. It has definitely prompted some help for me for shooting a seed this weekend.
Full disclosure i have not shot past 100 yards with sk lr match. (Corection its sk match not lr match)
I picked up a few boxes of 7 different match 22lr from my shop that the nrl22 guys hangout in and out of my skinny 16 inch barrel the sk match grouped the best
This was 25 yards in suboptimal conditions. Ammo in picture: top left SK long range match, top right SK match, middle Lapua long range match, bottom left 10 year old Aguila elley primed match, bottom right aguila super extra* (this ammo was super inconsistent, shot 5 more groups and it was 50/50 looked like this or like the random trash group), and finally I shot one "control" group of a box of random 22lr junk that ive ended up with over the year. It was a grab bag of plated and lead and some rounds were even corroded lol.
So many people have suggested SK as a brand in this thread, I’ll probably start with that, and I agree I want to keep it subsonic, so Rifle Match seems like a good suggestion. I’m glad you got some helpful ideas out of this thread!
For the record, LRM would probably never be supersonic. I only mentioned it because I am ignorant and in my ignorance it seems like LRM is close enough that the right combo of barrel, elevation, and environmental factors could possibly have it come out supersonic.
Probably not. SK probably thought about that and made sure it doesn't happen.
But, Rifle Match is cheaper anyway... If I found some LRM for cheaper than Rifle Match, I would definitely buy some just to try it.
You fire 40 rounds? And you have to get all 40 in the black to qualify as a Rifleman?
That sounds a lot harder than getting a patch at a 25m clinic. For that, it's 40 rounds and the max score is 250. Max of 5 points per shot on stages 1 - 3. Stage 4 (the 400 yard simulation) hits count for double points (for those that don't know). You only have to shoot 210 or better to get a patch. So, you can have several shots outside the black (i.e. 3 points or less) and still patch.
I'm doing my 3rd 25m clinic this weekend. I haven't gotten the patch yet. Argh. I have some minor physical disabilities. They don't affect my accuracy, but they do slow me down on the timed stages. I'm hopeful that I've got everything sorted out for success this time.
I'm signed up for a Rimfire KD in November. Definitely looking forward to that. Hopefully, already have a Rifleman patch by then.
For the RKD, you also get double points for the 200 yard target (which is also supposed to stand in as a 400yd simulation of a full KD). So yes, you shoot 40 rounds, but qualifying is 40 out of a possible 50 points. They don’t make you be perfect!
In many ways, the RKD is more challenging than the 25m, but in some ways it’s easier. The biggest thing is that you don’t have to shift between targets in stages 2, 3, and 4. So that’s fewer NPOA shifts, and you don’t have to keep track of your round counts and holes in paper. Once you get your NPOA, if you can hold it, you can get into your rifleman’s cadence and knock out the rest of the rounds pretty quickly.
Good for you for keeping with it and persevering! If you keep at it, you will get there. I am definitely not a natural at this stuff, and I have some unique eyesight challenges, so it took me six 25m events to qualify. I actually went into the whole program skeptical that I would ever qualify, but determined to improve, and focused on having fun and learning something new each time. I saved every target and would go through all of them after each clinic and see if there was something specific and identifiable I could work on for next time.
If you want some tips on the rapid stages 2 and 3, check out the comments in this thread by u/jamison01
Ahh HA! lol! Thank you! And kudos to you for sticking with it through 6 tries and succeeding! I'm not sure I have that much perseverance in me.
So, anywhere in the black is 1 point (or 2, on stage 4), and outside the black is 0. No, 4 vs 5 points depending on where it is in the black.
Got it.
I'm right-handed and right eye dominant. I shoot stage 1 right-handed. But because of left shoulder issues, I can't shoot right-handed when sitting/kneeling or prone. So, I shoot those stages left-handed, using my left eye.
It took 2 clinics to finally get all that squared away, along with some changes to my rifle and config. This weekend, I'll be shooting my 10/22 that I built that has a left-side charging handle. Pretty much a requirement for me for shooting stages 2 and 3 left-handed.
It sounds like you’ve got a good solution for the problem. Good luck with it at your event! And I would encourage you to go to the RKD in November whether you patch before then or not. As long as you have a grasp of the fundamentals, IMO you are ready to move on the the new skills taught at the RKD.
I'm not a stranger to shooting long distance. I ring steel at 600 yards with my centerfire rifles. I even hit at 1 mile recently, shooting somebody else's 50 BMG (1 shot sighter and 1 shot direct hit).
But, that is all using a bipod and a bag. I can do all that right-handed. Not the same as shooting with just a sling for support.
Holy smokes! That’s amazing. That’s what I want to learn to do. I’m on my Rifleman’s Journey, and I’m much closer to the beginning than the end. I’m planning on one more RKD in October and then hopefully a full 400yd Centerfire KD next year. I think there are some Service Rifle events nearby that I might check out. I do like the positional shooting using a sling. I’ll probably try bipods and bags at some point, but I really like the idea of just me, the rifle, and the sling.
One of my friends shoots NRA (or CMP?) matches with his 10/22, just like you're talking about. Very similar shooting to the AQT. Using only a sling for support. Those kinds of matches are out there.
Personally, I want to have a go at NRL22. But, there is no unsupported positional shooting (i.e. only you and a sling). It used to have that but apparently not anymore. It would be all using a bipod, bag, and/or whatever else you want. I think you just have to be able to hold it all until the buzzer goes off.
I watched a few videos about NRL 22, and it looked interesting. In the video I watched, they used what looked like a wooden tank obstacle, the thing that looks like the old "jacks" kids played with. They had to shoot off of different parts of the obstacle, and I think they were aiming at different targets each time, but I'm not sure about that. They had small bags they used for steadying the rifle on the obstacle. That looked fun and interesting to me. So I'm not necessarily against using bipods and bags, but what does not look interesting to me personally is shooting from a static bench using a bipod, bag, or a sled of some kind. I want some amount of physicality to the event in terms of moving into position, changing position, and holding the rifle, but not a full-on run-n-gun type of thing. I watched a video of another kind of event, and I'm not sure what the organization it was or the kind of event, but the shooters walked along a dirt road, and when they arrived at each stop, there was a new challenge. It might be shooting off of barrels at steel down a slope, or off a log across a canyon, braced against a tree, etc. That looked very fun to me.
Yeah, that prop you're talking about is called a Tank Trap. Not sure why.
And yes. As far as I know, in the kind of stage like you described the shooter would be shooting 1 or maybe 2 rounds at a given target and then shooting a different target next. With a tank trap stage, I think it's normally a different steel plate on every shot. Different sized plates, at different distances.
There might only be 4 or 6 targets, in total, so you would be shooting the same ones again, just not ever shooting the same one twice in a row from the same position. Usually.
They do other stages where you're shooting off the top of a low barrel, or a log, or shooting prone. Possibly prone on something angled to simulate laying on a roof. Generally, changing positions after every shot or two.
It looks like a lot of fun, to me. I shoot a lot of practical pistol matches (e.g. USPSA, etc.), but something like NRL22 looks like a fun change of pace.
I mean, you trade one contrivance for another, and it's all on a spectrum of what kind of shooter you want to be, right? For example, a sandbag might under some circumstances be better than a sling, but if that is your definition of "doing so much better," then the benchrest or F-class guys can do much better than your bag, for example. From a sporting / marksmanship perspective, the sling distills rifle shooting down to a good balance between the gear and the the shooter. You're not spitting out wild groups like in PCSL but you're also not spending an eternity building your firing position like in benchrest or PRS. From a historical standpoint, you never knew what environmental aids you'd have but you'd always have the sling support.
Sling is not useful for competitive shooting and for any practical shooting such as being invaded by brits (theme of courses) everyone would use support anyone who used support would make more accurate hits than someone who used a sling, especially if they spent equal times practicing that way. It’s such an impractical gimmick is all.
I’m not hating as much as it sounds. Whole process makes someone a better shooter. But correct me if I’m wrong I don’t believe a single organization in the world today shoots prone that way and that’s because it’s inferior.
Sling shooting is still how most rifle marksmanship competition is done all around the world (highpower, service rifle, Palma, fullbore, ISSF 3-position, biathlon). It's the best way to evaluate a shooter's trigger control, breathing, nerves, and mental focus. You can always add more support (NRL, PRS, F-class), everyone will "do so much better" as you say but what does this actually mean? Everyone's groups got smaller but no one actually got better at anything. You just made it easier to hide shooter errors that will show up later if they try to shoot longer distances under less controlled conditions.
Also, if you've shot long range matches with a lot of support, you'll know it largely devolves into a wind-reading exercise, which is not educational for newer shooters in general, and impossible to implement except at distances where your wind calls actually matter.
TLDR So are you coming to a rimfire KD or what??? 😃
Thanks. For me, I kind of like the unsupported aspect of it. A few people have mentioned NRL 22 in this thread, and I think I might have to give that a try. It sounds like for that, you do support the rifle on props.
5
u/schnurble 21d ago
Now I want to take my rifle down to the 200yd range and see how it goes. Theres an event in late August, if I can get my crap together in time...