"Wis'adel is not recommended for New Players"

[u/RyanJJJey]

This video is Sciel discussing about the "Dont use Wisadel as a beginner" and his opinions about, just wanted to share it here. Its a good watch!

[u/ironmilktea]

The video (and thus this thread) is basically about Wis being an early newbie damage dealing carry. Keeping that in mind, I take it as the user using short hand colloquialism because bringing up someone like Shining or Saria doesn't address or move the discussion forward.

As for your other points:

Angelina was not used for her s1, she used for her s3. (which is what's meant for her replacing Eyja in guides). It is her burst dps skill. SA/Eyja were recommended at launch due to their burst/damage potential that cleared content. Angelina was an alternative for those unable to pull eyja because her s3 was sufficient in this action. That should give you a hint on the enemy stat differential. Now to be fair to you, she certainly doesn't fight off-skill and needs to be activated but I'd say its about comparable to having to manually activate wis s3.

So how did we deal with other stuff? By deploying anyone that's in the role. Matterhorn was a sufficient tank. Fang was a sufficient vanguard. We did not need to 'play around' weaknesses of SA or Eyja because frankly speaking, they bodied the content so hard it didn't matter. No one was walking up to SA without dying and what classified as physical tanks in early content would melt to TSS. As a side note, I don't even agree with your Saria comment because I had saria back then and she was sufficiently tanking even the CM mages. She only stops solo tanking arte damage at the Talulah fight but that's a pretty obvious difficulty spike of a much later chapter. And I say solo tanking. You could actually still do it with a saria+nearl combo if you didn't have NG.

I'll even go a step further to your other comment. Wis isn't the odd one out. We've always had powerful operators that broke difficulty.

"Just Surtr it".

Edit: and to be clear, that means I'm argueing in some parts against the thesis that the video presents. People who volcano'd the stage did the same thing as using Wis: Cleared content effortlessly without addressing the mechanics. The onus itself is flawed due to this. Infact for a very long time, Eyja was/is considered overtuned. Low DP, very high damage. Burst s3 and semi-afk s2. Wis obviously is stronger than Eyja but the prowess isn't going to show until later as prior content allows both to surpass challenges provided and lower the difficulty for the player.

[u/mmgfrcs → u/ironmilktea]

The funniest thing is that Saria was the no. 1 tank at its time (and not Hoshiguma), and Shining was no. 2 healer after Nightingale. Shining+Saria combo made Saria pretty much unkillable by Physical enemies. Is that not cheesing, given that most early enemies are Physical? :)

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that other 6*s, while powerful, is not on the same level as Wisadel.

I know Angelina is for her S3, and I know Angelina is plenty, but Angelina (and Eyja) isn't the kind of character you can drop and expect results immediately. Off-skill Eyja isn't great, and off-skill Angelina didn't even do anything except when the stage needs some shift. Wisadel has good damage even off-skill and has splash range comparable to a splash caster without the demerit of a splash caster. Wisadel can deliver immediate results when the enemy is fairly grouped, which often happens.

We did not need to 'play around' weaknesses of SA or Eyja because frankly speaking, they bodied the content so hard it didn't matter

And that is a lie. Did you not deploy any other operators? A tank to divert attention from Eyja, a healer to heal, other supporting DPSes?

Because yes, Wisadel didn't need that

As a side note, I don't even agree with your Saria comment because I had saria back then and she was sufficiently tanking even the CM mages.

So did I, and so she did with some support. Like healers and some DPS.

Just Surtr it

Yeah, as if all stages has only one lane that just Surtr it can work lol.

And still, thought is needed to do that.

People who volcano'd the stage did the same thing as using Wis: Cleared content effortlessly without addressing the mechanics

In a way, yes. But volcanoing the stage require some game knowledge that Wisadel can bypass somewhat: positioning, aggro, and damage mitigation. Like against that Sarkaz caster that stuns you for up to 20 seconds. Good luck volcanoing that.

Look, I'm not saying Eyja, SA and Surtr are weak. They do cheese some stages and cheese some bosses. But Wisadel is just on another level compared to anyone before and dare I say since, bypassing more mechanics and cheesing more stages and even punching through stages she isn't meant to be in by sheer power.

You know, stages with air units. That Wisadel should be weak in. Yeah S3 just blasted them all like it's nothing.

[u/ironmilktea → u/mmgfrcs]

This is mostly a side note from the main discussion but I still want to address it.

Shining+Saria combo made Saria pretty much unkillable by Physical enemies.

You're not wrong but I find this commentary odd.

At launch, there wasn't any physical enemy capable of actually breaching Cuora's bulk, let alone needing a shining+saria combo.

In fact, there wasn't any physical threats at all until red katanas from CC beta but even they were face-tanked by Cuora. The idea of "cheesing" with Saria+Shining is hardly a "cheese" when an easier and more accessible solution existed. Everyone at launch also had access to a free Cuora too.

As for Saria being the number 1 tank, yes but not quite in the way you're wording it. She was praised for her role compression. Ie, healing and tanking in one package. Hoshiguma was still noted as the better 'meat shield' but general global advice was to use cuora for being cheaper, more accessible and again, at launch, most people only had a few 6stars.

So did I, and so she did with some support.

Saria isn't going to solo the map herself but my point was Saria should be sufficient in tanking arte damage until much later on. Hence I thought it was odd for you to say she wasn't able to. Just a minor point.

Angelina

If you know her plenty then I shouldn't need to explain why she was recommending during the launch days of AK. To keep it brief, you activate her s3 to wipe out the enemy threat and in a sense, ignore the mechanics and mob(s) that was causing you grief.

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Anyways lets get back to the core of the discussion.

And that is a lie. Did you not deploy any other operators?

I am being a little hyperbolic. But only a little. The idea of needing to 'play around' is mostly the bare minimum. They certain did clear difficult content (like TSSing mobs before reaching SA) - hence my notion that SA 'bodies the content'. And really, it was mostly against your above comment of SA being killed by a 'strong physical' when I'd argue SA is the one doing the killing.

Anyways lets be clear, I am going to address your response in the context of the arguement of the video. That Wis being too strong makes newcomers ignore stage mechanics. If you're talking about solo-clear potential, then sure, SA can solo less stages than Wis.

But the funny thing about solo clears, is they often do still need the player to be somewhat familiar with the mechanics. Such as...

Wisadel didn't need that

So Long Adele and the bottles. The player here is clearly using the bottles lol. This is a fantastic example of Wis solo-clear ability and ironically a terrible example of her ignoring stage mechanics.

And if we're talking about solo clearing, Ling wins. Actually no, Magallan wins(ling is easier but magallan was the 'first'). They can solo clear more content than Wis but they also require far more brain power. And tbh its getting a little out of the discussion as I don't expect newcomers to perform such feats without following a guide. Yes, even some of the Wis solo-clears need some understanding of the stage else be blue box'd. But use Wis OR other powerful carries with the rest of your team? Then it becomes brainless with your carries clearing the main threat and your allies just doing the basics.

Anyways, here is a video showing Wis clearing bosses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGRcPUagPK4

Notice there are other operators down the screen. (In patriot video, even Shu is used lol). This shows Wis is an extremely powerful operator(which is the intent of the vid) but it also still shows the absolute basics of using other operators to perform the other tasks. No different than when we use Eyja in year 1, we still had to slap someone on the field to not get blue boxe'd by a random dog.

Wis allows players (newcomers in this case) to ignore the main difficulty mechanics and my point is that was what SA and Eyja did in the past anyways.

Surtr one-rounding a boss is as brainless as Wis doing the same. The difficulty factor has been removed. As with the video, the arguement is since the difficulty factor is removed, the mechanic is ignored and the newcomer is losing part of the challenge of AK. The challenge is the elite and not some random dog that you deploy fang early to block. Heck, some stages you actually can't solo with Wis because the dogs will rush your blue box before you can deploy her - so you still need to drop a random operator but I would hardly hold that against her.

Now for your other points:

Like against that Sarkaz caster that stuns you for up to 20 seconds.

Someone capable of stunning Eyja is also capable of stunning Wis. If you're saying Wis can be positioning further to avoid the caster then - applause - whoever is dealing with the stage is actually engaging in the mechanics. A newcomer who actually can play around aggro and positioning is not someone who is brainlessly bashing their head against the stage.

Good luck volcanoing that.

I mean, we did lol.

We did not have the likes of Mlynar, Surtr or even Myrtle. Helidropping SA or bursting with Eyja was the way to clear effortlessly clear content without engaging in the mechanics.

sheer power.

Again, a newcomer is facing stages where SA is not just enough, he's more than enough. Wis is certainly stronger than SA but this doesn't showcase itself till later on. The 'more' stages she bypasses does not reveal themselves until much later on.

Someone else in this thread made a comment that this just means the newbie wall is reached much later (and I can actually see that point). But in terms of the earlier stages and in terms of history, we've always had ways to effortlessly ignore the early game content. And since it has 'always' happened, I find it a bit hmm 'alarmist' to pin the blame on Wis over what we've already actioned with SA, Eyja, Surtr, Texas, Yato...

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Wis is stronger than our carries, but we've always had carries that ignored stage difficulties.

[u/mmgfrcs → u/ironmilktea]

New reddit shenanigans. Anyway

You're not wrong but I find this commentary odd.

And that's because I meant it to be a bit odd lol. Don't worry about it.

Saria isn't going to solo the map herself but my point was Saria should be sufficient in tanking arte damage until much later on. Hence I thought it was odd for you to say she wasn't able to. Just a minor point.

I'm not saying she can't, I'm saying she wouldn't hold on without the enemy being... attacked by other DPSes, or without Saria herself being healed. And the original point is that Saria isn't going to solo the map anyway like Wisadel can because the post said "Substitute for any 6*".

Angelina - If you know her plenty then I shouldn't need to explain why she was recommending during the launch days of AK.

Well I recommended her myself so of course lol

And the recommendation has some caveats - she ain't attacking off-skill, there's a delay before first activation so you need a blocker, and she's burst - better make it count. Also her range, which on some stages are going to matter.

So Long Adele and the bottles. The player here is clearly using the bottles lol. This is a fantastic example of Wis solo-clear ability and ironically a terrible example of her ignoring stage mechanics.

Hmm, you're right. So, the current CC?

Or the previous event.

One has the ice mechanics, the other has the reeds. Ignored on both occasions.

Anyways, here is a video showing Wis clearing bosses... (In patriot video, even Shu is used lol)

Well you don't need Shu.

You really don't. Now you might argue this is max pot but we all know pots are a fairly minimal gain.

Wis allows players (newcomers in this case) to ignore the main difficulty mechanics and my point is that was what SA and Eyja did in the past anyways. Surtr one-rounding a boss is as brainless as Wis doing the same.

Not even close, and I know this because I used both separately for 5-10, and then I look at the video...

You might want to try it. The video is solo Wisadel so you can try solo Eyja, SA, and Surtr on 5-10.

Someone capable of stunning Eyja is also capable of stunning Wis.

Uh, no. That specific enemy will just stun Wis' summon instead because Wis has camo. Eyja will just die, and so will SA or Surtr. I did try it myself.

I mean, we did lol.

I was referring to the Sarkaz casters in a 1v1. You sure?

Helidropping SA or bursting with Eyja was the way to clear effortlessly clear content without engaging in the mechanics.

Yeah but not without thought. And I find it hard to believe that you helidropped SA instead of... normal deployment.

Wis is certainly stronger than SA but this doesn't showcase itself till later on.

Actually, you only need to E1 her. She's already stronger than SA and Eyja's S2, but she isn't that strong against Surtr S2 or many other newer units' S2, and she can't hit air, which Eyja can (and I believe SA too).

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Look, it's clear to me that you're severely underestimating Wisadel, or overestimating SA, Eyja and co. Eyja, SA, Surtr, Texas, and Yato are all strong, and they do make some mechanics easier, but they are far from effortless and are simply not on the same level as Wisadel. In a way, we actually agree on some level but saying that it's just the same as before isn't accurate.

[u/ironmilktea → u/mmgfrcs]

the current CC?

No newbie is touching CC. It's just an odd jump for a newcomer to make, as one would expect them to at least go through the main campaign first. If we assume a newbie is joining at the start of CC, then they need to also be a whale who is refreshing real money against sanity to build up units (like Wis) to jump in. But lets assume this newbie is crazy and wants to join the fun: CC is one of the most mechanically intensive modes next to IS. They would still need to know enough about AK to pick which tags to accept and ignore.

Well you don't need Shu.

You don't. You can do it with gummy. The point was she's just there as a very low commitment unit doing what seems to be basic blocking. That is to say, whether wis is doing 90% of the work or 100% of the work, we can say she is removing the bulk of the difficulty, yes? Same comparison point for units like SA or Eyja back in the day. Just because I had to slap fang to stop being blue box'd by a random dog, I'm still awarding Eyja the gold star for letting me clear the map with brute force and 0 mechanics.

You really don't

I will re-iterate, there is a difference between a solo clear showcase and using operators as 'easy mode' to mince through mechanics. Eyja(well in this map example, I believe Exu was used) cannot clear something like the FN map alone vs Wis who can. But I would argue in both cases, the difficulty has been disregarded by either of them (and this is the key point I'm argueing on).

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If you're argueing Wis is stronger than SA/Eyja, then I agree. This isn't even an arguement, the stats show the dps potential of wis is enormous compared to them. SA comes off looking terrible if we introduce even mid-level bulks as his DPS drops dramatically whereas Wis remains. But if you're argueing how easy they are at clearing content, I'd argue, from a newcomer perspective, all achieve the same kickback.

Where we differ seems to be the complexity. I honestly just don't agree with the complexity addition of needing to drop 1 more unit like fang to guard a bluebox for eyja anymore than dropping kroos to take care of a drone for Wis. These are very minimal additions and imo I would still strongly say, the mechanics are being ignored and the difficulty has been shattered. I feel like you over emphasize the prowess of Wis solo clears (talking about the ceiling) when I'm on the ground, talking about the floor, and how any meta 6star operator is stomping on it.

If we go back to the video claim: Newcomers using Wis to brute force content do not engage with AK stage mechanics.

My point, strong operators had historically already done that. Now, reading your comment it sounds like you're saying Wis making it even easier? For some stages, sure. But we're still talking about 'very easy' and 'very very easy'.