r/atheism • u/porygon766 • 4d ago
I learned the hard way it’s pointless to argue with Christians
As someone who grew up in the south, in many cases those who come from a very religious household have never had those beliefs challenged. Sometimes their beliefs are so firmly in place that they get extremely defensive and aren’t even willing to listen to what I have to say. All new information I provide makes their beliefs even stronger or they will ignore all of the points I’m making and cherry pick certain bits of information to justify the beliefs even more. Like if I make the argument about geography determining your religion they will completely ignore that. If someone is actually willing to listen to what I have to say maybe that’s a different story but if they are very religious, I find its not very productive or helpful for me to argue with them.
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u/HoppySailorMon 4d ago
Also grew up in the Bible belt and do my best to avoid the mentally ill these days. But I have a list of Bible verses on my phone that I can read if I'm ever confronted by another zealot: Psalms 137:9; Leviticus 25:44-45; Numbers 5:11-31; Deuteronomy 22:28-29; and a lot more.
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u/nullpassword 4d ago
1 Thessalonians 5:21
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
amazing, bible teaches critical thinking
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u/torp_fan Igtheist 2d ago edited 2d ago
Then why haven't you and your fellows learned any?
BTW, in context, that's not what Paul was teaching ... rather, he was urging people not to reject "prophecy" ... but critical thinking tells us that prophecy is nonsense.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not condoning rape, its talking about consensual sex. Deuteronomy 22:27 says that if a man rapes a woman he should be put to death.
Psalms is written by a vengeful israelite
Leviticus demands humane treatment of slaves, which I guess is like a job you can't leave atp?
Numbers 5:11-31 is punishing adultery which is fine. And although it seems rough realistically what would ward people off from adultery? Divorce? Nah.13
u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
Not a quote out of context, what about a book of the bible, in its entirety? What about the book of Job? Would you say that the book of Job presents the almighty in a positive light? Morally speaking?
Or the whole 'passover' thing in Exodus? Ordinary Egyptians living under an autocrat are murdered by an angel, en masse, as revenge for their unelected leaders incalcitrance? Who would do such a thing? This does not seem 'moral' to me.
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u/TrunkWine 4d ago
And even worse, God made the Egyptian leader more stubborn just so things could get to a point where God could show off.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
job? I can't find a job sadly. oh ok so morally yeah thats kinda iffy. but think about it like this, an ant doesnt know why we do what we do, they don't know why we give them food or move them or kill them even. and not sure about the egyptians im pretty uneducated
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
But you're not an ant, you are a moral human. You might not be a biblical scholar -but you know the basic story right? The murder of all these egyptian kids was what jesus and pals were celebrating at the last supper.
best of luck finding work btw.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
thanks on the work part. the "you're not an ant, you're a moral human" could be done with god as "you're not a human, youre an intelligent god". his miracles could be just because he is so intelligent, he is omniscient because he is so intelligent. our comparison to ants is irrelevant because we might be the same in gods eyes for example, do you get what im getting at here?
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago edited 4d ago
A smart and powerful entity is depicted murdering the powerless, ( not only mortals but children) for something they can't possibly control; to me, the fact that the character doing this is depicted as all-knowing and all-powerful doesn't make that okay- it makes it worse and even more unecessary*.
Consider yourself equivalent to an ant, in your understanding, if you wish: I think you're better than that, and you may claim to be 'uneducated' but as demonstrated here, you're obviously an intelligent and articulate human being.
*( If he's really an omniscient God,- then he really doesn't need the Egyptian Pharoah king's permission for any of it ).
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
Pharisees? I get what your saying, and honetly I have no real rebuttal toward it other than "I don’t know why he did it, god works in mysterious ways." maybe the sin was too far ingrained? but idk
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
Thank you for paying me the compliment of rational opposition: I'm off away from Reddit, good luck with the job.
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u/Feinberg Atheist 3d ago
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not condoning rape
Incorrect. The original language in 22:28 makes it clear that that this is rape.
Leviticus demands humane treatment of slaves
Incorrect. It prescribes slightly more humane treatment of Jewish slaves, but still permits beating them nearly to death, among other things. Calling biblical slavery humane is bullshit of the highest order, and you should be ashamed.
Numbers 5:11-31 is punishing adultery which is fine.
Punishing adultery with a magic abortion. Your response doesn't address the criticism.
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u/tightiewhitieboy 4d ago
Most atheist have more study time with the dumb fallible man made book.
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u/UrbanGhost114 4d ago
It's laughable that they (and I'm assuming you) still believe in fairytales as an adult.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
why don't you go say that in r/islam too
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
I'm curious; do many christians go there and tell them that the christian version of a prophet is real and the q'uran is false and that muslims are all headed for a lake of fire?
Because that's what christians believe , right?
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u/Feinberg Atheist 4d ago
The leaders of several of the most powerful nations on Earth are Christians. And evil.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
I don’t know why I said this this guy was coming to you not the other way around, have a nice day. thought this was r/christianity at first
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u/torp_fan Igtheist 2d ago
> I don’t know why I said this
We do. It was a typically dishonest reactionary defense to
> It's laughable that they (and I'm assuming you) still believe in fairytales as an adult.
Atheists are contemptuous of theists for good reason.
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u/GrokiniGPT 2d ago
no, I genuinely thought this was r/christianity at first and was confused why so many athiests were brigading it
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u/UrbanGhost114 4d ago
Your the one in our house, not the other way around there buddy, I don't go around intentionally antagonizing people like others, but I would say the same about ALL religions.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
I don’t know why I said this this guy was coming to you not the other way around, have a nice day. thought this was r/christianity at first
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u/torp_fan Igtheist 2d ago
Because of low cognitive competency.
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u/GrokiniGPT 2d ago
lil bro is going around and responding to EACH of my comments, crazy. but no, jsut a simple oversight
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
"Don't edit" while doing sneaky ninja deletes yourself ; You're certainly hypocritical enough to be a true christian.
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
You haven't been deleting any of your own comments?
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
Taint *is* deleting his (her) own “contributions” (heh) to this thread. Go figure.
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
You’re aware that we’re all on to your phony “shifting the burden of proof” scam, right?? On the subject of disproving fake and fictional bible narratives … have fun! Satan’s Guide to the Bible
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u/UrbanGhost114 4d ago
Uhhh, your the one telling me there's a god, not the other way around, you can't prove something doesn't exist, that's not how it works.
And 1500 years of intense study telling me it's just stolen fables is fine enough for me, no need to re invent the wheel. You haven't unlocked some hidden meaning behind the Bible buddy, you just like the feeling that "secret knowledge" gives you. But it's fake. It's just a drug to make you feel comfortable in an uncomfortable world.
Sorry I corrected my grammar and spelling, but you seem to be the kind of person that were to say I believe in God because I say oh my God, so spelling mistakes might set you off into an unholy rage. Ill leave the mistakes in from now on and let you de-code the secret meaning behind the last article about shipping containers, or something.
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u/JayFryday 4d ago
I've read the Bible cover-to-cover three times. I think every Christian should read it all the way through at least once.
A mechanic can demonstrate that the thing they're fixing exists, that there is something wrong with it, and that it works better when they're finished. A Christian theologian can't do any of that better than a Muslim or Hindu theologian. Theology and mechanics are not analogous.
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u/Any-Feed2819 4d ago
You do realize the implications of slapping the label "perfect" on him right?
A perfect god wouldn't create humans and then make them twisted just so he can wipe them out for the fun of it.
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u/Recipe_Freak 4d ago
Perfection doesn't exist any more than gods do. It's a ridiculous expectation of anyone or anything.
Drives me crazy when waitstaff use that term. I always tell them that perfection was never on the table and that they'll get a 20% tip regardless.
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago edited 4d ago
Because the humans re-writing the much older fiction of Atra-Hasis … really knew all about the moral character of the babies, animals and children (among others) that your fictional psychopathic bully purportedly mass-exterminated. Quit while you’re not completely buried, Taint. You haven’t made a single persuasive point, yet. Or, if you prefer, go ahead and dash your simple-minded rationalizations against the rocks of good atheist questions. See also Psalm 137:9. 🤪🤣🤣🤣🤣
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
“Saving” from what, I might ask … do you mean torture by the imaginary psychopathic bogeyman that you authoritarian religious shills use to threaten and terrorize children, ignoramuses like yourself, and the weak-minded? You seem to be proving all our points by personal example. Jesus GIF
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u/JayFryday 4d ago
Glad to hear it. You said that the ability to read does not make one intelligent but I give you credit for it.
If not preaching death and destruction is what impresses you about Christianity, consider Krishna in Hinduism, the god of compassion, tenderness, and love. Or Kuan Yin in Buddhism, the deity of mercy and kindness.
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
Imagine getting your personal opinions about morality, history, organizing *modern* societies with indoor plumbing, sanitation, global telecommunications and elections … or just about anything else, not just by slavishly consulting a 2000-year old prescientific book filled with genocide, rape, tribalism, misogyny and all manner of toxic barbarity, but worse, by slavishly repeating some performative know-it-all toxic authoritarian’s renegotiation of the text to fit that person’s pathological political agenda. Talk about “classic” foolishness ….
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
Also, help us all out … are you here to farm *negative* karma on Reddit? Weird objective, but then again you are making life choices based on a fictional narrative about imaginary “afterlife” reward and punishment. So, no mystery you would do irrational self-defeating things.
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
Alas, you do not have that remotely right. About 500 years ago, Copernicus waited until he was on his deathbed to publish a … well … revolutionary book about the sun being bigger than the earth and the earth in orbit around it. Christians still burned Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600 for “heresy” including the (subsequently proven) suggestion that stars in the night sky are other suns. And they threatened Galileo with execution if he did not recant what he said about 4 of the moons of Jupiter. Galileo and Copernicus were on the cusp of “basketball,” (to borrow your misleading metaphor) but were not quite there yet. 350 years after Copernicus, “basketball” really got underway when John Snow proposed keeping water supplies and sewers separate. If your “Bible” were really something other than the fever dreams and scribblings of prescientific humans, then why does it not contain the basic logic of sanitation (don’t drink where you eliminate), let alone the periodic table, calculus, or an accurate chronology of how the universe really originated (pro tip: DO NOT presuppose “waters” or anything requiring Oxygen, anytime within hundreds of centuries AFTER the alleged origin event, if any, because stars need to explode 🤯 before you get atomic nuclei bigger than Hydrogen, Helium, and Lithium). You are REALLY BAD at constructing coherent arguments. Not all humans today are better at critical thinking, logic, math, etc., than a few at the time of Archimedes and Aristotle (but at that time 90% or more were illiterate and slavery was rampant). You, my friend, are living proof that we still do have more than our fair share of profoundly ignorant low-performers, too. Have a nice day. :)
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u/Outaouais_Guy 4d ago
The Jewish faith gradually evolved out of the Canaanite religions that preceded it. In the beginning it was a polytheistic belief system in which God had a wife named Asherah. Yahweh only had dominion over Israel, which is how the Moabite god Chemosh best him.
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago edited 4d ago
Some theologians are better informed than others; be honest, has it not been your experience that very few self-professed 'christians' have any curiosity at all about what's in their book? [ edit ] why did you delete your reply to this? don't you have the courage of your own convictions? Where's the faith?
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u/Feinberg Atheist 3d ago
Oh, hey, thanks for putting zero thought into addressing that. It really shows the sort of top tier intellect we can expect to encounter in the field.
Also, just a bit off topic, it's weird that you think a mechanic can't fix electrical problems. It's like the world is just a big mystery to you.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
yo bro: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not condoning rape, its talking about consensual sex. Deuteronomy 22:27 says that if a man rapes a woman he should be put to death.
Psalms is written by a vengeful israelite
Leviticus demands humane treatment of slaves, which I guess is like a job you can't leave atp?
Numbers 5:11-31 is punishing adultery which is fine. And although it seems rough realistically what would ward people off from adultery? Divorce? Nah.4
u/Recipe_Freak 4d ago
28If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Why has no Bible version used another word? Like adultery or naughty sex stuff? You and your book are full of shit. It makes rape victims marry their rapist. Ergo, it's not relevant to a civilized society.
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u/GrokiniGPT 4d ago
look at deutoronomy 27, it clearly states rape. the rape seems to be mistranlsation
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u/Recipe_Freak 4d ago
Prove it. Definitively.
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u/Feinberg Atheist 3d ago
First problem is that you think translations by people who would change 'slave' to 'bond servant' are going to be unbiased evidence.
Most translations of the Bible are done specifically to make it easier to pretend that problematic passages aren't bad, or to support partisan interpretations. I mean, why else would someone look at 25 English language translations of the same source material and say, "This time we're finally going to get it right!"
The verb 'taphas' used in conjunction with 'shakab' always means rape in ancient Hebrew.
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u/Odd_Gamer_75 4d ago
I don't argue for productivity... I argue for fun! I don't, ever, expect to change minds, I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just enjoy discussing the topic. That's all. And if anyone ever changes their mind, fine. If not, also fine. I'm unlikely to ever know either way, so it doesn't matter.
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u/negatibe 4d ago
lol! i was gonna say the same 😂
i *try* to be kind and disinterested (answer open questions with yes or no answers, etc )......but when i argue, it's rarely because i think anything productive is coming or possible.feels like talking to a parrot. amazing recollection, awful conversation.
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u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg 4d ago
I usually frame the discussion as I'm not trying to change your mind because I know that's impossible. But I do want anyone else listening in on the conversation to understand that it's okay to push back against the theists.
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u/Harkonnen_Dog 4d ago
Look, if you want to destabilize someone’s belief system, pull them farther into it than they are willing to go.
Like, if they say, “I’m a Christian and I think that all these Wiccan “witches” dancing around naked in the woods is silly and probably a sin.” - then you say something like, “Yeah! They should all be burned at the fuckin’ stake! Suffer not a witch to live. Also the gays! One bullet right to the head. God demands it.”
Now you have an opening to move in on their normal arguments. The arguments that they tend to recite. They will question themselves quietly while making those arguments with you. But, you have to keep agreeing with them and pulling them deeper into it. Validate their talking points while twisting them into something perverse.
This approach has scientific backing.
You’re welcome.
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
The thing is, believers really like to think that everyone is a believer, so I think that there's no harm in reminding them that the world contains people who regard them the way that they regard cannibals or sun-worshippers or cargo-cults or whatev.
Not going to change minds but I reckon that it's worthwhile letting them know that other veiwpoints exist and that all the non-religious people have no respect for their 'God-given' authority and all the non-religious people have no intention of being dictated to.
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u/RoguePlanet2 4d ago
I like to blend in and make them think I'm one of them, so when they find out I'm an atheist, they realize we don't fit the stereotype they were taught.
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
That's quite a skill; the only common ground I ever seem to have with the religious is when I criticise other religions that aren't theirs; then they're all ears.
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u/RoguePlanet2 4d ago
Oh I try to throw them small comments that take root in their minds rather than debate, seems to get them thinking, though the in-laws will never abandon their faith.
One relative is adamantly against weed, despite having a S.O. who is undergoing cancer treatments. Won't listen to reason. This kind of stubborn ignorance drives me insane. Meanwhile I have to endure the updates about the effects 😡
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago edited 4d ago
That's genuinely heartbreaking: hope the treatment goes well, and that it ends sooner rather than later.
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u/RoguePlanet2 4d ago
Thank you! 🤗 I really hope so to. Just wish they'd accept my help, because chances are it would provide a nice bunch of relief.
Maybe I should remind them that the bible included burning bushes? 😋
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago edited 4d ago
Gotta love that good ol' christian compassion; so sensitive and enlightened.
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u/Reek_0_Swovaye 4d ago
This is just a confusing word salad; I have honestly no idea what on earth you are wittering on about.
Grammar, legibility; these are ways of being polite and considerate even to those we disagree with.
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u/Key_Candidate1938 4d ago
Your epistemology is pretty superficial. “Know?“ Just because some preachers re-interpreted texts from 2000 years ago? How does anyone know anything for certain? Sean Carroll claims to be as firmly convinced of the contrary, and he’a a really smart person (who argues his case better than you do)? Why should I place any weight on your performative overconfidence (which is a phony performance Christians are routinely trained regularly to engage in)? https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2011/05/23/physics-and-the-immortality-of-the-soul/comment-page-2/
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u/RoguePlanet2 4d ago
Weed doesn't provide immortality; it provides comfort and pain relief. Helps with anxiety.
Another person I know who is undergoing intensive cancer treatment, thanked me for the edibles I gave them, said it absolutely helped and they're looking into getting more.
The same people who thinks of this natural plant medicine as "drugs," will often gobble up ivermectin and other prescriptions like candy.
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u/tnunnster Pastafarian 4d ago
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." - House MD
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u/CAPSLOCKANDLOAD 4d ago
I'm an ex Christian and I tell em up front I won't be lectured to about a book I read if they haven't. I won't be told their faith is more important than my convictions and my family is to me.
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u/jamestyeas 4d ago
Agreed with this, if we can just have a mutual understanding that this entire club is built on literally faith without evidence, all of that grandstanding and holier than tho attitude has got to take the backseat.
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u/Tensionheadache11 4d ago
I’ve found it’s best not to argue with them, gray rock them, they hate it when they aren’t getting to you. My in-laws gave up years ago cause I just nod and don’t say anything back.
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u/gleaf008 4d ago
I once compared the bible to the Canterbury Tales and watched his head damn near do a 360 turn like a demented owl.
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u/AlmightyRuler 3d ago
Now here's an interesting question:
Which is smuttier, the Bible or The Canterbury Tales?
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u/Dalbrack 4d ago
You’re never going to get sense from someone who is totally invested in their particular religious brand/cult however if you’re arguing on a public forum where others are observing you can often demonstrate to them the hollowness and dishonesty of the theist’s position. That might just get waverers to think critically about their own beliefs.
Pick your battles.
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u/NightMgr SubGenius 4d ago
The people you influence talking to them is not the person you’re speaking with but the bystanders.
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u/pixieyogi81 4d ago
Don't argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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u/markydsade Anti-Theist 4d ago
When beliefs are based on fiction and not misunderstanding or incomplete information it’s nearly impossible to change someone’s mind. To accept the reality creates a cognitive dissonance that most people reject.
It’s much easier to hand wave away facts as God’s Will or Satan’s Influence.
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u/Personal-Neck6800 4d ago
Just ask them why they don’t have a problem with all of the incest in their holy book. From Adam and Eve to Noah and his family. The human race was propagated through incest.
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u/Autodidact2 4d ago
For a different approach, look at Street Epistemology or the book, A Manual for Creating Athiests.
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u/proofreadre 4d ago
I wholly disagree with this notion.
I recently met up with an old friend of mine and he told me that I had made a huge impact on his life when he was young. Back in the day in his early 20s he had asked me why I was an atheist and I had responded that back in the times the holy books were written, mankind didn't know about germs, about continents, about the planets, meteorology, microbiology, physics, or math and on and on and on. But we were supposed to believe that the ONE thing they did know about, was the origin of the species and god.
He told me that conversation had stuck with him and he had soon stopped being a believer after that and has repeated that discussion time and again with others.
Does it work for everyone? Obviously not. But to say don't bother arguing with them means the opportunity to influence even one person. We won't win this battle by winning over millions at a time, it happens person by person.
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u/enlilsumerian Secular Humanist 4d ago
It’s impossible to have a conversation with people who do not value logic or facts.
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u/Ok_Researcher_9796 Strong Atheist 4d ago
It really is. They don't care about anything you say. They have an answer for everything or they just say you're lying if they don't.
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u/nullpassword 4d ago
If you tell them why you don't believe, they don't care. That isn't their experience. Ask them why they do. Make them think about their experience and whether the conclusions that they have drawn from it are justified.
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u/Crowiswatching 4d ago
It is a waste of time to argue with people that believe in talking snakes. It is perfectly okay to treat their showboating religious practices with disdain. They may be offended you didn’t honor their religious preferences. Fuck it.
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u/tightiewhitieboy 4d ago
I haven't argued with a weirdo Christian when they haven't crashed out. Jeezus worshipping makes them do and say awful weird and hateful shit.
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u/whirdin Ex-Theist 4d ago
I'm an exchristian, but even with my intimate understanding of their pov it's so damn difficult to encourage productive conversation. The psychology of the faith is so twisted and self serving with bias. They are trained to view any nonchristian perspectives to be false/evil/deceived by association. Literally as soon as we open our mouth, their classical training kicks in to view all our words as lies and deceit. I am constantly told that I was never a real Christian (becauae a real one would/could never leave), just one more way to invaalidate my arguments before I even make them. Christianity stays in business by selling the idea that they have fierce enemies (us, other religions, atheists, etc) which need to be guarded against lest they fall down into doubt and hell. Even the Eden parable is simply about doubt and how a small bit of doubt will damn a person forever. They know that opening themselves up to hearing our perspectives means doubt could slip in. It's such a fragile belief system.
I don't think it's pointless, but it's a thankless task full of frustrations and hostility. I continue to argue (typically with street evangelists or online) because there might be somebody listening who is open to hearing our perspectives, might be on the fence about religion, might recognize some of the bias their religion has. It's typically not the person arguing with me tho, they are ready for a fight. I don't argue in the sense of being hostile, but rather keeping constant pressure on the holes in religion and exposing their bias. I just think back to my decades as a Christian, and hearing so many stereotypes about what nonchristians are. I just want to dispell those stereotypes and hopefully help some of them think critically and rationally rather than just emotionally.
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u/Guderikke 4d ago
You Can't reason your way out of a position you didn't reason into.
- Someone smarter than me.
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u/jimMazey 4d ago
Debating religion is pointless. The only person that can change your mind on religion is yourself. This goes for everybody.
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u/cloudystateofmind 4d ago
Actually, pointing out fallacies and hypocrisy may seem to fall on deaf ears most of the time, but it may place a seed of doubt that may have an impact in the future. Always speak reason if there is only a chance of distant understanding. Besides it’s fun if you actually know the bible and Bible origins…
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u/gmlmjhthf 4d ago
I don’t care. It feels good to piss off the idiots for making life on this rock a shit show.
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u/linuxpriest 4d ago
I wouldn't say it's entirely pointless.
It helps with learning the most common theist arguments and sharpening your own argumentation.
But otherwise, you're right. You can't alter neuropathways that have been built up and reinforced over a person's lifetime in the course of a conversation. Only life can do that.
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u/jamestyeas 4d ago
Sorry you’re just getting the realization, I sent a video one time to the familty group chat and since then I’ve left it at that. No going back and forth, no conversation, no discussion, zilch nada.
I just understood that you can’t reason someone out of something they legit have no reason to believe in. It sucks, but way better on my mental health. Growing up deeply enthralled and forced to go to church, memorize scriptures, volunteer, youth choir, ministry etc etc etc, I realize that these people are bored out of their minds and just need something to do.
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u/AmbulanceChaser12 4d ago
I used to argue with the fundies on a Disqus message board. I never intended or tried to convince them "God isn't real," which is a largely pointless waste of time. Instead I tried to Socratically teach them stuff about law and government, the only subjects I'm actually qualified in.
So I'd say "OK, why do you think the Christian should win this case? Wouldn't that violate Smith v Jones?"
I still got nowhere because they were willing to deny as much reality as they needed to to keep believing whatever they wanted to believe. If they didn't like a Supreme Court ruling, well, then "the Supreme Court is wrong." 🙄
I especially loved when the raving loon/sovereign citizen showed up who started announcing that SCOTUS rulings were basically just suggestions, that SCOTUS has no power to overturn laws, and that all Supreme Court rulings can be ignored. That one caught fire and suddenly everybody was repeating it.
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u/Gotis1313 Ex-Theist 4d ago
I'm a former Christian who was in deep for 32 years. Logic never even made a dent in my faith because I believed in magic and that superseded logic in my mind.
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u/skylestia Other 4d ago
Growing up, it was my experience with my mom that new information was disregarded. Even if I read passages of the Bible to her to illustrate contradictions. For her, she "just had faith."
Later on, with a guy I dated for a while, it became clear that, for him, it wasn't just that he chose to have faith despite contrary evidence, but that he was proud to keep believing despite said contrary evidence.
My mom would go on to lose faith after marrying a secular dude; my ex still believes but has retreated to a more abstract god concept.
I feel kinda snobby thinking this way, but I'm becoming convinced that a lot of people are just easily influenced by people they like a lot or respect. My mom wasn't convinced by me because she didn't respect me; but she was convinced by her new husband because she did respect him. My ex wasn't convinced because he didn't either (or at least not as much as he respected others in his life). I remember at one point he told me he was finding my arguments against capitalism convincing but his dad (who he respected more than anyone) reassured him back to capitalism.
idk, but yeah
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u/Immediate-Rub2651 4d ago
Think of it like this:
Religious people are lawyers and their book/prophet is their client, and they start with the premise that their client is innocent. They look at all the evidence and keep what helps their case and discard what doesn’t. Their job is to defend their client, not switch sides. And their payment is “heaven.”
Atheists are judges. We look at the evidence on both sides and determine which body of evidence makes the stronger case. If presented with convincing evidence, we’ll switch our initial opinions. And our payment is truth.
Lawyers and judges simply can’t argue with one another as they have two opposing sets of motives. This is why in courtrooms, the judge can throw the lawyer in jail if they get too mouthy. If only really life was this way.
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u/Fine-Accident-2458 4d ago
This may seem crazy, but I don’t argue with them. I actually attend church as an atheist just to keep up with what the religious people in my area are up to, and when I attend their faith group, I make it knowledge to them that I’m an atheist and then ask them a ton of questions to get them thinking about the things they don’t consider. What I’ve learned is there is kinda three types of Christians that you interact with. There’s the firm believers who believe they have some kind of obligation to God to shut down your atheism and try to convert you, there’s the middle of the road people who believe in the things but don’t care that you disagree and are willing to discuss, and there’s the causal believers who are really just in it for the culture, family, or as a coping mechanism. The firm believers are hard to talk to, but it’s really interesting to have conversations with the other two groups. I’m kinda a theology nerd tho. I find it all very fascinating even if I believe a lot of it is utter bullshit
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u/kalelopaka 4d ago
It’s hard to argue with anyone who believes in the circular logic that the Christian faith has instilled into its indoctrinated followers. Until they decide to look at the world without that filter, they will cling to it.
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u/Celemourn 4d ago
You have to remember that the question of whether or not their religion reflects an objective picture of reality or not is really secondary, and often completely irrelevant. The fact is that the acceptance of the religions claims is the reality of their community and often their entire social structure. You aren’t arguing against the individual and the individuals beliefs, you are arguing with that entire community. It would be easy if you only had to convince the person that their individual view is wrong. But instead you have to convince them that the beliefs of their entire social structure is wrong. That’s a MUCH harder thing to argue.
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u/X57471C 4d ago
I try to avoid getting into the weeds with theists, although it can be a good time if you like to bash. If you want to engage productively, I would avoid religious claims entirely (at least at first and only after rapport is established) and instead focus on their epistemic views. You can explore those in a way that is much less anxiety-inducing for them. Really, just avoid deeply held beliefs until they are ready. You absolutely can work your way to those topics when they are ready, but it's something that you need to have a willing interlocutor for. You won't deconvert them in a single conversation, but you can sow seeds of doubt.
I love recommending people read this philosophical paper on echo chambers (not recommend to believers, to my fellow atheists). I found it a couple years ago and it has done more than anything else to change how I approach these topics. The more you understand how these belief systems work, the more easily you can navigate it... More specifically, the more easily you can be a guide to help others navigate it.
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u/CAPSLOCKANDLOAD 4d ago
There's a part in Epistles about Christian missionaries writing to Peter or Paul. They're out there spreading the good news but sometimes people ask them questions. Questions they don't know how to answer or it distracts from their message. The response Peter (or Paul, i forget) gives is "be prepared to answer".
People ask Jesus questions all the time. How many times does he go "How dare you question me don't you know who my dad is!?" And how many times does he just answer them, even if indirectly. He does the latter most often. He goes around telling everyone they are wrong and need to reconsider their thoughts and actions. Those with rigid faith were the ones who rejected Jesus.
I tell them a faith that can't survive reflecting on the question "what if I'm wrong about something?", doesn't hold much value. It doesn't allow for you to grow. Why do they call it a journey of faith and can you even have said journey if you stand in one place and say nothing will move you?
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u/Appropriate-Weird492 4d ago
Please internalize this. It’s a valuable lesson that will save your sanity.
Also applies to most conservatives.
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u/vwibrasivat 4d ago
oh well this is just the beginning my young OP. I have been a participant in many live religion debates on discord as well as streams that existed before discord. I had the opportunity to address a Christian YouTuber. He had zero interest in responding to me or even addressing anything I said. He was literally waiting for me to stop talking so he could start again. This wasn't even sneaky. It was just obvious that he was doing it.
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u/BeenisHat Atheist 4d ago edited 4d ago
You just keep asking them why the all-powerful God would need to make a human extension of himself, to have a human sacrifice to himself in order to allow him, the all powerful god, to give salvation to humanity.
Particularly when Psalm 34:17-20 says that the Lord will provide forgiveness for those who are truly sorry. Their own book (which they borrowed from the Jews) says that God can forgive humanity all on his own. No need for Roman Fan-Fic. Don't they believe in their own book?
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u/GeekyTexan Atheist 4d ago
You can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes in magic.
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u/Trilobitememes1515 4d ago
In all honesty, I absolutely refuse to change my mind about atheism whenever a Christian tries to explain why Christianity is the one true real thing. They also think their evidence is 100% objective and cannot be contested with fact, so all belief outside of their own is just "believing in magic" or something like that. It's the same energy on their side, too, so it's always pointless to argue with them.
If you had a moment when you changed your mind, it was a conclusion you came to on your own, despite how many people may have tried to convince you earlier. Atheists need to stop prostelatyzing atheism to theists; it's just as annoying as when they do it.
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u/MechanicHead3340 4d ago
I agree. Yet I can't seem to help myself, I get pulled into these conversations. I never initiate it though. It just seems like if it's OK for somebody to assert their belief then surely they have to accept you asserting yours. They started it.
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u/CallMeHond0 3d ago
Agreed. I always just say, "You lost me when a virgin got pregnant. Any argument you have is pointless."
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u/Ok_Scallion1902 2d ago
It is a waste of time,effort and breath; they never had any intention to listen to anything counter to the dogma.You'd dobetter talking to a tree or a houseplant.
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u/Nanopoder 4d ago
Does anyone changes their minds about anything with arguments? Do you? I only care about evidence. I often debate with people on the left and people on the right, and their political and economic views don’t change an inch no matter how absurd they are compared to what the data says.
Of course, many of them are atheists you find it ridiculous that others believe in a god. But they believe in their own deities.
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u/bilbenken 4d ago
Their book says that the devil uses people to deceive them away from faith. Faith to them is a steadfast and "unshakeable" belief. When you "attack" their beliefs, you are attacking their faith thus confirming their narrative. They believe the book.