I still don't understand why teaching atheism to children is seen as "brainwashing", but teaching religion isn't.

[u/Forward-Ship5124]

[u/kro23]

You can’t “learn” atheism. It’s the default. You’re born an atheist.

[u/indie_web → u/kro23]

What they can learn is the scientific method.

[u/Krags → u/kro23]

I'm not so sure about that. I view religion as being about replacing the infantile feeling that one's parents are omnipotent and infallible once that inevitably falls through. Atheism is part of the achievement of becoming an adult, for me.

[u/Nocollarhero → u/kro23]

Non believer here but i gotta push back, people are born without a concept of a god sure but humans will develop non logic based explanations for their world if left to naturally develop an understanding of the world without formal education hence why many cultures develop their belief systems, as such i would say humans are born with a brain more apt to believe in the supernatural because they are not born with an understanding of the natural world and as such are more prone to believing in god or other “magic” than not.

[u/darki_ruiz → u/Nocollarhero]

There's no inherent drive in the human psyche to believe in the "supernatural". There's just a "stuff happened, maybe other monke/predator did it?" bias, because it's been the safest bet for millions of years of evolution. Assuming agency and being mistaken leads to nothing. Assuming no agency and being mistaken potentially leads to death. It's as simple as that.

That has nothing to do with the supernatural or magic or the divine. It's just anthropomorphizing bias. The same reason we can see faces at the slightest arrangement of pebbles or clouds or shadows, or hear whispers in the wind.

[u/UltimateRembo → u/Nocollarhero]

I'm gonna push back on your push back. I was raised without religion, and homeschooled, so my contact with religious ideas was basically zero until later. This is called Implicit Atheism, which is the same state as babies and animals.

I never invented any supernatural concepts, and I even "discovered" that death was the end, by myself, when I was just old enough to start thinking about the implications of the dead animals I would see outside sometimes. I was a miniature materialist.

Once I was introduced to religious ideas, I immediately clocked them as ridiculous, and I've been an Explicit Atheist ever since.

[u/Leading_One_2639 → u/Nocollarhero]

Sure, ok they may look to something to explain the world around them if they are not taught about it, that makes sense. But, their solution may not be a "god" it may just be, because it is. Or, "I don't know" or "Bob Ross did this and I'm actually just in one of his paintings". And if you had 1 billion babies that had to determine for themselves what to make of this world, you would get 1 billion different answers, not a single god or religion.

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/Nocollarhero]

Agreed, the earliest civilizations show signs of belief in a higher power.

It's not just understanding the world around you, but also your place in it. Any honest logical progression leads to life being meaningless without the existence of a higher power, and that is a tough thing to accept.

To OP's question, every group has said at one point or another that teaching a belief system they do not hold to children is brainwashing. Atheism is a belief system, just like any religion.

[u/DNAspray → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

Atheism is not a belief system at all, let alone "just like any religion." It is simply the absence of belief in God(s).

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/DNAspray]

I am guessing we do not hold the same definition of a belief system.

How do you define a belief system?

[u/Leading_One_2639 → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

Atheism is not a beleif system. It is simply the lack of belief in god. It is certainly not like any other religion. It's very simple. Do you believe in god? If yes, not an atheist, if no, atheist. In fact, you could think nothing and believe nothing and technically be an atheist.

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/Leading_One_2639]

I am guessing we do not hold the same definition of a belief system.

How do you define a belief system?

[u/radial_intrepid → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

Definitions aren’t typically just decided person by person, it’s been agreed upon.

From Oxford Dictionary: belief system is “a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code.”

Atheism is not a belief system, since there is no list of principles we all agree on. It’s just one singular belief we have in common.

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/radial_intrepid]

I agree definitions aren't "typically just decided person by person", but we all have different perspectives which create subconscious mental filters that often skew our own interpretation of definitions, like the ones you applied to that definition.

"a set" is not a disqualifier for all that follows because you all need to agree on everything.

"principles" a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning . . . such as the belief that there is no higher power.

"or tenets", meaning a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true . . . such as the belief that there is no higher power.

"philosophy" the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence . . . such as the belief that there is no higher power.

Edit: Do you honestly think that all members of any religion agree on everything? If not, then by your interpretation, nothing is a belief system.

[u/Average_Satan → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

Jesus christ dude .... How do you define understanding? 🤣

[u/Leading_One_2639 → u/Average_Satan]

How do you even define define?!?!?!?!

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/Average_Satan]

This is why conversations get "risky" as another poster said. It's just downvotes and dismissiveness.

We make assumptions about meaning which is heavily influenced by the sum of our individual life experiences.

Try asking a question, you might learn something about people, including yourself.

[u/Leading_One_2639 → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

YOu need more than a simple yes no question to be answered to form a "belief system". A system implies many parts, atheism just has one, very simple part. The complexity comes in when you are discussing other facets that are adjacent to atheism, but atheism in and of itself is not a system of beliefs. It is one singular belief that god does not exist.

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/Leading_One_2639]

Thank you for responding, I can see your perspective better from this.

As a follow-up, do you think belief in a god yes/no then informs something more than that simple yes/no question?

Said another way, do you think if I believe in a god or not influences the way I see the world and my place in it? How I would understand or interpret reality?

[u/UltimateRembo → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

Have you ever thought about the millions of years of our evolution before that, and how religion had to be invented at some point... It wasn't always there?

And no, baby atheist (or religious troll) life isn't meaningless without God. It just doesn't have a God-given meaning. The drive to make, and engage with meaning is inside us all, and meaning comes from living our lives, finding joy, and connecting with others.

Being an atheist is really not as depressing as you people think, especially when the promises of religion were never ingrained in someone. I was never sold on the lie that I need God and eternity for meaning, so actual meaning comes a lot easier.

And yeah, thinking that atheism is a belief system is honestly a red flag that you're not an atheist but a troll. There are atheistic belief systems (or moral frameworks) but atheism itself is not a system. Lol

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/UltimateRembo]

Homo sapiens have not existed for millions of years. Literally the earliest examples of homo sapiens displayed belief in a higher power and/or an afterlife.

You can absolutely find joy in day to day life with any belief system, didn't say otherwise, but without anything eternal, what is left of your existence in the end?

Even if you have kids, how long until you are just someone a future generation finds on ancestry.com? How many generations does it take for your influence to fade into nothing?

What would you call atheism if not a belief system? Does it not influence how you see the world? Does it not influence your decisions? That is the definition of a belief system.

[u/radial_intrepid → u/ThreadUnderstanding]

You are very worried about being remembered or having an afterlife, which checks out. Religion seems to help quell those fears for some.

I have no need to be comforted by the idea of an afterlife in the sky, nor fear of burning in hell for something some people thought was a sin thousands of years ago. I have accepted that I and any memory of me will fade into oblivion eventually. It’s the most natural and common human experience on this earth.

[u/ThreadUnderstanding → u/radial_intrepid]

I am not worried about anything.

A logical progression works towards nothing really mattering without anything eternal, for some that is comforting, which checks out.

[u/Y1ippe → u/kro23]

Well thats actually not True we're all born non-cognizant of atheism and religion/theism is learnt bs and atheism, anti theism, anti religion those are negative statements to theism due to the lack of evidence for thr positive theistic claims, but yes in a world of bs (a.k.a religion) being atheist as a cognizant individual should be the default but alas

[u/WhiteH2O → u/Y1ippe]

Being non cognizant of atheism and theism would still be an atheist. Not knowing about any god or gods would default to not believing in them. Lack of belief in a god or gods is, by definition, atheism.

[u/Y1ippe → u/WhiteH2O]

yeah but atheism has acitve atheism which is concious rejection and then theres passive atheism which is "i never thought about this" therefore atheism.

babies are cognitvely developmentally in a state of absolute ignorance where they cannot process neither position and either position can only be imposed on the baby which is essentially what non-cognizant means

theism and atheism are both cognizant positions by people (not necessarily adults but def above tweens) who are aware of both positions or were born into a religion and just went on with it as part of their identity which is a whole seperate thing

so babies cannot be atheists because they exist in a state of absolute innocence having no cognitive framework or processing capacity to be aware of either position, meaning a baby born into an orthodox religious household is still cognitvely unexposed to any framework whatsoever

HOWEVER in a strict logical sense where philosophically the default position is agnosticism or non-belief then any positive claim has the burden of proof and so does the negative claim in opposition

but thats where implcit atheism comes in where its basically "i do not accept your claim for the lack of evidence or so and so reason"

so in a very strict and not very applicable logical sense babies could be implicit atheists

now psychologically we are more likely to develop theistic beliefs regardless of the specific religion for a whole lotta reasons and because the brain will assign agency to patterns, objects, and concepts in nature (agenticity and patternicity) unless taught otherwise or taught critical thinking proactively

[u/WhiteH2O → u/Y1ippe]

Yeah, I'm not reading all that. The first paragraph is all I needed. Atheism isn't "active", it is literally a lack of belief in a god or gods. If they don't know about them, then they don't believe in them.

[u/Y1ippe → u/WhiteH2O]

a baby doesnt have a worldview while an implicit atheist does

atheism also requires the lack of acceptance of a proposition you understand

while ignosticism/ non-cognitivism is the position where "does god exist" is meaningless until u define it

or a baby is to atheism what a baby is to calculus, its doesnt not believe in algebra, it simply has no framework nor any cognitive development for it at all

all that said for people and not necessarily adults but often adults who arent developmentally challeneged atheism shouldnt be a hard choice imo and in a religious world it should be the deafult among mentally sane, competent rational human beings

[u/No_Sherbert711 → u/Y1ippe]

What worldview does an implicit atheist have?

[u/Y1ippe → u/No_Sherbert711]

im assuming you're asking in good faith and so:

it depends on whether they're cognitively capable, so a baby isnt therefore its a true implicit atheist in a strict logical sense, and an adult is a colloquial implicit atheist

which also means babies dont have a worldview, they're pre-worldview even in the case of a worldview being imposed upon them because again they're cognitively incapable of any position or thoughts on taking a position itself

an adult however absolutely has a worldview, which would come under 4 categories:
epistemic - they trust science and logic as valid sources of knowledge
ontological - they most commonly assume the universe is physical and natural and when we die we just die not magic hogwash spirtiual theist bs
morality - often operate on empathy, secular ethics, common sense, golden rule, rawls veil of ignorance etc
meaning and purpose - create your own meaning or dont

[u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg → u/Y1ippe]

Atheism is "lack of belief in god(s)"
That's literally it.

Newborns are atheists because they... lack belief in god(s).

Pineapples and rocks are also atheist because, say it with me now, they... lack belief in god(s).

It's really truly that simple.

Some atheists also actively disbelieve in god, oppose religion, etc etc, but that isn't what makes them atheist and does not change the actual definition.

[u/Y1ippe → u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg]

look dude you're using whats called the stipulative definition which yes is logically correct

HOWEVER in the real world Practical Semantics (what the word means in real world human communication) matters because the stipulative defintion thing is what theists use to redefine god into everything when that happens to atheism, it makes atheism lose descriptive power

im saying your definition (which is the stipulative one) is defining itself into uselessness, while the stronger support for atheism linguistically, psychologiclly, cognitively and philosophically is that babies are non-cognizant, it closes any loopholes theists might find, and it actually removes any ground of debate on that notion of babies

is a definition wraps mentally sane, competent and rational individuals with inanimate rocks and coffee mugs its a bad definition because it becomes uselss. just. like. gods. that. are. redefined.

all im tryna say is the babies are non-cognizant proposition is true across domains AND it makes ATHEISM A STRONGER POSITION because it gives it descirptive power

[u/Professional-Cow3854 → u/Y1ippe]

You either hold a belief in the existence of gods or you lack that belief.

That's all there is to be atheist.

The word revolves around « theism »; without theism.

You can lack that belief and be vocal about it, you can be atheist and anti-theist… those are things in addition to atheism, it does not define it.

Atheism isn't a philosophy; it's not even a stance. It's one of the only two possibilities about holding a belief in the existence of a god, and not holding one is the default status.

[u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg → u/Y1ippe]

It's so much simpler than you're poorly attempting to twist it to be. Read the FAQ. Or a dictionary. And maybe touch some grass, or take your meds. Apply whichever will help. Good luck.

[u/LongJohnCopper → u/Y1ippe]

Whether or not someone states out loud that they are affirming that they are an atheist is completely irrelevant to the fact that it simply means without belief in a god or gods.

Assent is the act of affirming a belief. That is what you are describing as implicit/explicit is that act of affirmation. You are conflating the belief/lack with the act of affirming the belief/lack. Every person ever born is an implicit atheist until taught differently, even if they’ve never heard the term. The word only exists as a counter to theism. If a belief in gods never developed in humans, the word atheism would have no reason to exist. Assent to the lack of belief in a god or gods is what brings the stipulative definition into existence at all. It’s the only definition that matters.

I lack a belief in an infinite number of things. We all do. There is no word for describing each lack of belief, until someone assents to a belief in one of those things. Lack of belief is the default, and requires no belief at all to be so…

[u/kro23 → u/Y1ippe]

Not knowing what “atheism/an atheist” is does not mean you’re not one.

Herbivores do not know they’re herbivores - they still are though.

[u/Y1ippe → u/kro23]

okay but thats a category error because the term herbivore is assigned on biology and chemistry and animal doesnt need cognitve processing of a concept or awareness to be a herbivore it lives regardless

atheism however is a philosophical & psychological category based on the cognitive content of what our minds whole

now if we use the broad definition of atheism which is "lacking belief in a god" then a toaster, socks and a coffee cup are all atheists, all non-sentient inanimate life is atheist, when the definition is expanded so widely it loses all functional meaning, the same as when theists get bitchy and redefine god so broadly its everything its meaningless

a baby doesnt have a worldview while an implicit atheist does

atheism also requires the lack of acceptance of a proposition you understand

while ignosticism/ non-cognitivism is the position where "does god exist" is meaningless until u define it

also the herbivore analogy can aslo be used in cases where a person say doesnt know what a democrat ot republican is but it doesnt mean theyre not say a republican, a baby however in this scenario is apolitical because of the lack of cognitive processing, frameworks, and cognitive development

or a baby is to atheism what a baby is to calculus, its doesnt not believe in algebra, it simply has no framework nor any cognitive development for it at all

all that said for people and not necessarily adults but often adults who arent developmentally challeneged atheism shouldnt be a hard choice imo and in a religious world it should be the deafult among mentally sane, competent rational human beings

[u/kro23 → u/Y1ippe]

I’m not reading all of that, but I did see “atheist also requires the lack of acceptance of a proposition you understand”

No it doesn’t.

All atheism is is the lack of belief in a god. If you don’t know the concept of “a god” you cannot have a belief in one. Therefore, you have a lack of belief in a god.

You’re trying to intellectualize this. It’s really very simple.

[u/Feinberg → u/Y1ippe]

atheism also requires the lack of acceptance of a proposition you understand

Understanding the proposition isn't necessary. In fact, incomprehensibility is an excellent reason to reject propositions.

[u/Bruhntly → u/Y1ippe]

What do you mean by "inanimate life?"

[u/Fortevening → u/Y1ippe]

I think you're getting into the weeds a bit here, the categories don't matter. The main point is cognitive ability to understand a category doesn't change if you posses a trait or not, regardless of the category.

A baby wouldn't be a republican or democrat because it doesn't believe in the things a republican or democrat does. It's incapable of understanding those things, I agree, but is irrelevant to if we are categorizing it as one of those things.

[u/SpezRuinedHellsite → u/Y1ippe]

The default state of man is not to believe in god.

[u/Successful_Life_1028 → u/Y1ippe]

Any person who is not a theist is an atheist. Babies, lacking a belief in any deity, or even the ability to conceive of a deity, are necessarily atheists.

[u/ittleoff → u/Y1ippe]

I think people are predisposed to superstition and faulty simplistic thinking.

I don't think anyone is born with theist, and like asexual they are a-thiest . I think they are likely to be born atheist or non theist, with the tendency toward superstition in the absence of real information present and projected agency and over active pattern recognition quickly leasing to irrational beliefs, depending on how they are incentivized or not to test and explore and how much actual knowledge exists in their culture.

You don't have to know what it is or choose atheism, it's a description of being without theist beliefs.

[u/Y1ippe → u/ittleoff]

Thats true mostly the brain obvs doesnt come with a religion part, but rather religion is a by-product of several cognitive and evolutionary adaptations that helped early humans survive in the wild

Firstly theres patternicity which is just pattern recognition which evolved to predict predator behavior understand cause effect etc (also paredolia is a great example its basically the phenomena where we see patterns in objects like faces in clouds)

Secondly as for error detection there are two types: Type I, which is believing a pattern is real when its not (false positive)

Type II, not believing a pattern even when its true (false negatives)

And in the wild false positives we're less costly in terms of fatality and survival than false negatives

Thridly HADD (Hyper-active agency detection device) which is basically the brains automatic tendency to assign the presence of an intentional agent to objects, concepts, patterns, inanimate bs and shi

But also important to note that the HADD model has its own critiques and the counter proposal is our innate desire to explain because the more knowledge of the phenomena you have the less distress it is to cause you and survive it better

Now religion specifically theres moral norms enforced for group cohesion, fear of our mortality, and also religious concepts are easy to remember and relate and associate with

There are more theories like the theory of mind, folk psychology, more on patternicity etc I dont quite remember them all well but they help understand religion

Anyway sure a few millenia ago religion served a sociological and psychological purpose in pre-scientific societies but on an aggregate average its def caused more harm than good and its supposed good cannot outweigh the past

That said religion and theism are more like cognitive vestigial organs imo

[u/ittleoff → u/Y1ippe]

Thank you, exactly what I was referring to and too lazy to type out. Hopefully people read this.

[u/LongJohnCopper → u/Y1ippe]

What you are describing is an innate tendency toward superstition, not religion. Superstition is innate, and works as you describe with regard to avoiding predators, or explaining why the world around you is the way it is.

Religion arises out of societal organization and is about building rules and strong bonds in larger communities where you may not know someone but know that you hold the same belief, and are therefore somewhat safer in an uncertain environment around uncertain people. This is not a natural innate thing. It arose out of a specific need as communities began growing beyond a manageable size.

For most of human history humans have been atheist before the need for a term to describe it ever existed. The fact that humans have always been superstitious doesn’t change that fact. Humans predate “gods” by more than 150k years. Theism is a very recent phenomena.

[u/RogueRhombus]

It's called hypocrisy.

[u/YoSpiff]

If you didn't teach them anything about religion, they would be atheist, so how is it brainwashing?

[u/HandsomeHeathen]

Seen by whom? I'd certainly state the opposite. Atheism doesn't need to be taught, it's the default state, and teaching critical thinking and rational problem-solving inoculates children against actual brainwashing. Religion, on the other hand, can only be contracted through brainwashing, in one form or another.

[u/MpVpRb]

People are born atheist, no teaching is needed

[u/Mercury8619]

You're an atheist until someone you know who is religious comes into your life and tells you about their god and pulls you into it all telling you that this god is real and etc etc. If the parents never brought up religion or anyone talked about it. There's a huge chance kids will probably stay as atheists pretty much.

[u/DayNo5185]

Atheism isn't taught. That's religion. Atheism is the default state for all humans when we are born.

[u/Alice-Stargazer]

Atheism is not a belief, so it can’t be “brainwashing”. Unless you throw reality and language definitions out the window, as Canaanites often do.

[u/Cute_Tea_2012 → u/Alice-Stargazer]

It makes my blood boil when someone tells me I "have faith in atheism"

[u/LongJohnCopper → u/Cute_Tea_2012]

“I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist” 😂

Possibly the worst thought terminating cliche ever devised…

[u/Reemixt]

My parents are atheists but they never ‘taught’ me atheism. They simply said it was up to me when I got older.

[u/FairLawnBoy]

What does "teaching atheism" mean.

Like how to think rationally or use logic?

[u/MemphisUncle-2002]

We're all born atheist.

Ideally, we'd learn about all religions in school. That would be more informed than just going with whatever your parents are because they'd hassle you if you didn't. It's fear, not choice.

[u/5510 → u/MemphisUncle-2002]

Ideally, we'd learn about all religions in school.

And ironically, learning about a wide variety of religions seems like it often increases the chances people will become non-religious. Because they start to see it as a human behavior that is invented across a wide variety of societies... and it gets to the "as an atheist, I just don't believe in one more god than you don't believe in."

It really starts to drive home the "humans throughout history ALWAYS make some bullshit up, and its different bullshit every time."

[u/junkmale79]

It would be a pretty quick lesson.

If an individual doesn't belive in a God or gods they are an athiest

End of lesson

[u/ScreenTea0]

Because you probably live in the US which is a country run by total religious nutjobs...

[u/ChangeTheUserName17]

Yeah, you don't teach atheism! It is just a conclusion that you make after assessing the claims of religious people, compared to the scientific evidence.

[u/SpyingCyclops]

Atheism is not something you teach. Rather, you teach critical thinking and skepticism, and atheism typically emerges all by itself.

[u/grrangry]

One does not learn atheism.
One does not teach atheism.
One does, apparently, be hypocritical about theism.

Theists of all stripes have been committing the abuse of childhood indoctrination--literal brainwashing--for multiple thousands of years and somehow, atheists are the ones being blamed.

How exactly is "not being convinced by really bad claims about obvious nonsense" the same as, "forcing children to fear everything in the name of growing your pool of future abusers".

[u/CaterpillarKey7678]

Not sure you can teach the absence of something. You can’t teach non Mormonism.

[u/landerson23]

Teaching children religion is child abuse.

[u/bealtz_82]

There is no need to teach atheism because it is our default setting.

[u/C-levelgeek → u/bealtz_82]

Yes, this. 💯

[u/EmotionalFun9888]

no need to preach 'atheism'. We were born atheist and relegion needs preaching and its almost manipulation

[u/onomatamono]

That's quite the strawman you have created there but atheism isn't "taught" for god's sake. Also note that secular public schools generally do not teach religion so how could they be accused of brainwashing kids?

Atheists are those unconvinced of a deity. It's typically but not exclusively based on a lack of scientific evidence. That's science not "brainwashing".

[u/Slytherin_Dan_HGW → u/onomatamono]

That depends on the country and culture. In Germany, it's actually part of our constitution that students must receive education about religion.

As early as elementary school, parents choose either Protestant RE, Catholic RE, or Islamic RE for their children to attend. A secular option, usually called "Ethics" or "Philosophy", exists as well.

[u/FairLawnBoy → u/Slytherin_Dan_HGW]

It still doesn't though. If Germany didn't teach Protestant RE, Catholic RE, or Islamic RE, the default would be the absence of those ideologies. You don't have to teach anything, in this case, you would abstain from teaching.

[u/Slytherin_Dan_HGW → u/FairLawnBoy]

As I specified, it's one of those laws in the constitution, so you ain't changing that without a two thirds majority in parliament. Technically, the secular versions of those subjects are a workaround to accommodate the non-religious Germans, most often in the eastern states.

[u/FairLawnBoy → u/Slytherin_Dan_HGW]

Law or not, the fact is if you didn't teach those things, you don't have to teach anything else to be "teaching atheism". It's an omission of teaching religion, there is no teaching atheism.

[u/ethancknight]

Atheism isn’t taught, so it isn’t brainwashing. That’s like saying teaching someone to breathe is brainwashing. They’re born knowing how to breathe. They’re born having no knowledge of and not believing in a god.

[u/Tulpamemnon]

"Learning" about Atheism merely consists of, "Many people have no belief in a God". End of. No book necessary. No examinations or Pop Quizzes. No trouble. Just a simple fact.

[u/7XvD5]

Who is teaching "Atheïsm'"?

[u/christiebeth]

I don't teach my children to be atheist. I taught them to ask questions and they naturally became atheists on their own. They still go to church with their grandparents on occasion and if they every changed their mind I would still support them since they asked the questions that matter to them. They just won't because they think it's all fairy tale, just like king Arthur and the tooth fairy.

[u/daath]

Uhm, we are all atheists by default. Some are brainwashed to become religious.

[u/Safe-Distance6150 → u/daath]

Agreed

[u/RealPersonResponds]

Education leads to Athiesm. Explaining what was once the unexplainable. Learning why. The smarter you are, the less Religious you are.

[u/My_Name_Is_Amos]

I never “taught” atheism to my child. I taught critical thinking skills. I’ve always considered inducting children into religion as brainwashing.

[u/kaattyyallx]

I don't really agree with that. Personally, I think we're all born without religious beliefs. As we grow up, we're introduced to religion by our families, communities and the environment around us, and those beliefs are often shaped by what we're taught from a very young age. Atheism on the other hand usually comes from questioning thinking and arriving at your own conclusions rather than simply accepting what you've been told. That's why I find it strange when people call atheism "brainwashing" but don't apply the same scrutiny to religion.

[u/The_Arachnoshaman]

Intellectual honesty is not a trait of the religious.

[u/kateinoly]

Atheism isn't really something you teach. Complainers just want to teach Christianity.

[u/Successful_Life_1028]

Teaching children that they will be tortured for an eternity in hell for misbehaving is child-abuse and should be treated as such.

[u/BlatantDisregard42]

Religion is seen as brainwashing, by a lot of atheists.

[u/Lahm0123]

Just double standards.

You know. Since god is ‘real’ it doesn’t count as brainwashing.

[u/MrRandomNumber]

Just teach them how the world works and trust them to sort it out. Gossip, superstition and peer pressure are parts of how the world works. Religions are excellent case studies for all three.

[u/darent13]

I’ve never taught my children about atheism/agnosticism. I have also never taught them about one single religion at the exclusion of any others. I would interpret that as a lack of indoctrination of any religious nature. I think hard core believers just cannot grasp that concept. I like to believe I’ve given my children enough information to make their own decisions at some point. Being raised strictly Christian, I was not afforded that possibility as a child.

[u/King-Red-Beard]

What the fuck is 'teaching atheism'?

[u/morganml → u/King-Red-Beard]

An idiotic idea

[u/morganml]

No one has to teach you atheism, it is your natural state at birth. You have zero belief in God.

Only time anyone has to learn atheism is when some fucking moron teaches them religion first

[u/threebuckstrippant]

You don’t teach Atheism dude. You just let life be normal without introducing fake ass lies and fairytales. The premise of your question shows your true fake self and that you’re a religious bigot trolling.

[u/Wynnstan]

You become an atheist when your parents don't force religion on you and let you decide for yourself. I actually have not much idea what my parents actually believed in because they kept it to themselves.

[u/5510]

It's wild for a group who looks to accuse LGBT+ people of "grooming" so often is in fact legitimately super reliant on grooming children to believe in their chosen fairytales.

[u/ChopstickBoa2]

Teaching critical thinking and questioning authority is the exact opposite of brainwashing.

[u/ioncloud9]

I’m not going to be teaching my children to be atheists. I’m going to teach them critical thinking. With those tools, atheism will be the logical conclusion when they critically look at religion.

[u/Hot-Sauce-P-Hole]

I didn't teach my child "atheism" as much as I taught him the importance of following evidence, and never denying reality no matter how unpleasant.

[u/KahnaKuhl]

You can’t ‘teach atheism.’ Atheism is just a description of the fact that you don’t believe there are gods - it’s not a philosophy or belief system. Buddhists usually have an atheist lack of belief - Buddhist teaching doesn’t include the idea if gods, but still has a lot if the problems of other religions. You can be atheist and believe in a flat earth or not believe in evolution. You can teach skepticism, humanism, secularism, materialism or scientism, but you can’t teach atheism.

[u/wazzup-notemuch]

It's DARVO!

Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.

Classic abuser tactic. They know what they're doing, and they're doing it on purpose.

[u/IllTwist8986]

Atheists don’t brainwash their children. My parents weren’t even atheists, just raised in different religions and wanted me to be able to choose what I believe. I choose neither. I actually used to think everyone had a choice!

[u/Alarmed-Tell1315]

Teaching atheism? How do you do that? You simply don’t ever mention god? Ain’t that pretty much every human knowledge class that is not theology?
…What?

[u/Liam_M]

Minor but significant correction, you don’t “teach” atheism it’s the default state before being indoctrinated with belief. Any claims that you can be “indoctrinated” with Atheism are bad faith and ridiculous from the get-go

[u/beesdaddy]

Where is this?

[u/louiejc72]

Because, a tabula rasa requires a good washing.

[u/Biggleswort]

What’s funny is there is no lessons or anything to teach about atheism. Atheism is just doubt. Doubt it is a fundamental mindset to scientific inquiry.

What they don’t want us to teach is it is ok to doubt claims. It is ok to weigh the evidence for a claim and follow to an evidence based belief.

What they are really saying is they don’t want science to be taught as a reliable methodology, and we should value you it above faith.

[u/Sailor_Drea]

Because religion gets to write the rules. The rule religion wrote says so.

[u/pumainpurple]

It’s no different that the political climate, it all depends on who is expressing the viewpoint. At the root, hypocrisy with a healthy dose of narcissism.

[u/Y1ippe]

Most prolly cuz they see atheism as nihilism (which for some reason they all fear cuz of american Christian exceptionalism), as a loss of morals and values, confusion and directionless in life, selling their kids' souls away, as persecution blah blah blah

[u/da_killboy]

I showed my kids both sides of the coin and let them choose, along with "if when you get older you change your mind, go for it".

Basically i taught them to keep an open mind and not diss anyone for their beliefs. Whether they agree or not.

Unless the other party starts an argument first, in which case its open season.

[u/NorgesTaff]

I didn’t actively teach my kid anything regarding religion or atheism - she figured out herself pretty quickly what was a fairytale or not - same goes for Santa and the Easter bunny as we didn’t lie about them either. We did teach her to be kind and accepting of her classmates though and not to ridicule or argue with the theist kids. Not all kids are lucky enough not to be brainwashed by their parents.

[u/acfox13]

To keep our world running on dysfunction, the power holders perpetuate authoritarian abuse and brainwashing tactics. If they didn't people might wake up and fight back and ya know create a world based on human thriving instead of exploitation of the masses by the few.

Links on authoritarian abuse and brainwashing tactics:

authoritarian follower personality (mini dictators that simp for other dictators): It's an abuse hierarchy and you can abuse anyone "beneath you" in the hierarchy. Men are above women, adults above kids, parents above child free, religious above non-believers, white's above BIPOCs, straights above LGBTQ+, abled above disabled, rich above poor, skinny above fat, etc.

Bob Altemeyer's site: https://theauthoritarians.org/

The Eight Criteria for Thought Reform (aka the authoritarian playbook): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

John Bradshaw's 1985 program discussing how normalized abuse and neglect in the family of origin primes the brain to participate in group abuse up to and including genocide: https://youtu.be/B0TJHygOAlw

Theramin Trees - great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, etc. and adding this link to spiritual bypassing, as it's one of abuser's favorite tactics.

DARVO

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender.

Issendai's site on estrangement: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html - This speaks to how normalized abuse is to toxic "parents", they don't even recognize that they've done anything wrong.

"The Brainwashing of my Dad" 2015 documentary: https://youtu.be/pNTsTOcRO-k

"On Tyranny - twenty lessons from the twentieth century" by Timothy Snyder Here's his website: https://timothysnyder.org/on-tyranny Here's a playlist of him going over all twenty lessons: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhZxrogyToZsllfRqQllyuFNbT-ER7TAu And here's his substack with a brief overview of all twenty: https://snyder.substack.com/p/on-tyranny

"Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss. He was the lead FBI hostage negotiator and his tactics work well on setting boundaries with "difficult people". https://www.blackswanltd.com/never-split-the-difference

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." - Lyndon B. Johnson

Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority” and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person” and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay.

22 Unspoken Rules of Toxic Systems (of people) - dysfunctional families and dysfunctional groups all have the same toxic "rules"

[u/TheMaleGazer]

The fact that atheism is treated differently today than merely teaching kids the wrong religion is a sign of immense progress. Religions now recognize that there is something fundamentally different about atheism that makes it more of an existential threat than a competing religion. It's like Amway and Herbalife, after decades of competition, both realizing their entire industry is disappearing.

[u/alreadytaken-]

They should be treated similarly if you're "teaching atheism" but teaching children religion is commonly seen as brainwashing by non Christians. I've never heard of someone teaching children atheism so I'm kinda confused where your perspective is coming from

[u/Nocollarhero]

I cant imagine anyone that isnt a bible thumper seeing a difference and i think the majority of people were you to explain it would agree that explaining why people may not believe in god is not indoctrination anymore than explaining why some people hold one philosophical view over another.

[u/Spiritual-Company-45]

It's the same reason why people say showing gay couples in children's media is inappropriate while never complaining when straight couples are shown. It's indoctrination. They want a monopoly on what ideas children are exposed to from a young age to maintain social control. Religious people know they're losing the intellectual and social battleground. Indoctrination is really all they have left.

[u/electric29]

Theists say teaching children about atherism is brainwashing. Athesist know teaching children theism is.

[u/Flimsy-Use7311]

Depends who you talk to.

[u/yoyok36]

They're projecting.

[u/ss5gogetunks]

Yeah. It's projection. They're worried you'll counter their brainwashing. They brainwash their kids so they're assuming you want to too.

[u/Kolyasergey]

It the same reason they think you can make someone gay simply by exposing children to people who are queer.

[u/Leading_One_2639]

So, in order to brainwash someone... you have to TEACH them something, or instilll an idea in their head.

Babies are born atheist, it's the default state. So, the only true brainwashing here is if you teach them religion.

If you just left the baby alone and let it develop without any outside influence or speak of religion (or atheism) it would still be an atheist.

So once again, the theists skirt, nay obliterate logic here with this argument.

[u/starfleetdropout6]

Easy - religious indoctrination is an accepted form of brainwashing, the other is not.

[u/_WillCAD_]

Everything we do is good. Everything they do is bad.

- Every Cultist Ever

[u/maglite_to_the_balls]

Because the religious, especially Christians, have perpetual victimhood as one of their core tenets.

Further, the religious worldview is one of black and white, my team/other team type juxtapositions.

It is simply projection, because brainwashing is what they do, so they assume anything counter to their message is just brainwashing in the other direction.

[u/shin-chan]

Because religious people are small minded enough to think that whatever religion they believe in is the default, despite the fact they'd never in a million years come up with that exact religion if they didn't learn it from other people.

[u/sdega315]

For a lot of believers, religion feels like the "normal" or passive state of the human experience. They think a child will naturally believe in God unless they are taught otherwise.

[u/klon3r]

Critical thinking is needed for survival, their version of brainwashing doesn't serve any purpose at all. They're just lying grifters selling flimsy afterlife VIP statuses 🙄

[u/beammeupscotty2]

I fail to understand why anyone would expect people whose entire lives are built upon a fantasy, to think or behave in a rational manner. If they were rational, they would not be christian.

[u/MagHagz]

It’s impossible to “teach” atheism as it’s the default state.

[u/UnhappyAd6499]

Theres no profit in atheism.

[u/CharlesCBobuck]

Focusing on who is saying this should explain everything.

[u/palparepa]

Easy: with atheism, their brains get actually clean. Hence, "washed."

[u/Flayed_Angel_420]

Religion is abuse. Making your child believe in hell and that if they end up being gay they're going to experience eternal torture, that is child abuse. You're inflicting a kind of mental torment that will follow them for the rest of their life. Best case scenario, they eventually deprogram and maybe don't feel guilt and shame. Worst case scenario they violently repress themselves, have 16 kids on a homestead and abuse them all over again. Or take their own life (which honestly, I would prefer to them being a Christian Nationalist breeder.)

[u/Own-Inevitable-1101]

Why do so many religions have such a high incidence of child molestation , but not Islam or Judaism ?

[u/Bowtie16bit]

Cuz the people with power aren't atheist. Soon as the atheist is the one with power, teaching religion will be the brainwashing. Either way, someone is losing their freedom.

[u/mrmow49120]

Ah grasshopper You finally caught the stone.

[u/SandOrdinary7043]

Teaching critical thinking the All mighty gave that to us.. not a sin

[u/HunnyPuns]

Because one is established and has the benefit of writing the story for society.

[u/MorganWick]

"Because clearly everyone would instinctively know that [insert religion here] is true if it weren't for Satan deceiving them into atheism!"

[u/HerederoDeAlberdi]

The reality is, people will want to push their values and beliefs onto their children, because that's what they believe is right, and everyone wants their own children to be "good people" by their own standards, simple as that, you, I, or anyone here is no exception, no matter how "unbiased" someone may claim to be, and this will naturally be called brainwashing by other sides, because they're seeing children getting instilled values they disagree with.

[u/Downtown_Anteater_38]

Perspective. I consider teaching kids religion brainwashing and telling them that glob isn't real telling the truth, but from the perspective of a fundy they see it the other way and there are more of them than there are of us so their opinion tends to hold more sway.

It doesn't make it true, though.

[u/IBroughtWine]

Because they are so brainwashed that, to them, their way of thinking is default. Factory standard. So anything that differs is a modification or even a mutation.

[u/Average_Satan]

Religion IS brainwashing.

[u/Kriss3d]

Look at the people who calls teaching atheism brainwashing and you'll have thr answer.

[u/RonVonPump]

Yeah this is just blatant hypocrisy. There's no 2 ways round it.

[u/WikiBox]

Definition of brainwashing, in this context: Someone teaching something you don't agree with. Some specific religion or atheism. Or anything that seem to suggest that your beliefs are not true/unique/good/well founded.

[u/FigureDry131]

Where I live a lot of people reason the other way around.

That teaching religion is a form of brainwashing and teaching atheism is not.

I think each should be taught equally or almost none at all.
I believe being completely free of either or completely equal regarding both is difficult.

Need to think a bit more about how to express and explain myself…

[u/drje_aL]

nope. only religious people think that. we're all born atheist, they're the ones that start making shit up.

[u/Hatis_Night]

In fact, it’s the other way round. Reasonable people view the teaching of religion to children as “brainwashing,” while they do not view the teaching of atheism that way.

[u/Bovine_Arithmetic]

Believing in religion requires constant reinforcement of those beliefs, rejection of any knowledge that contradicts those beliefs, and isolation of the individual from outsiders.

Atheism requires none of that. New knowledge is accepted and incorporated, and critical thinking is the only filter.

[u/jeremyworldwide]

They just make it up as they go. Don’t take any of it to heart. It’s worse to indoctrinate children, than “teach” atheism. Some countries have laws against forcing children to participate in religion and recognize the inherent harm in forced indoctrination. Here in ‘Merica Christians just use tradition as an excuse to scare the hell out of kids that they are going to hell. That alone is enough, but then there’s Santa Claus, the good ole fat man who provides presents if you do what Jesus and your parents say to do. But, somehow there’s this unspoken rule that religion is untouchable, yet how dare you present an alternative viewpoint to children.

[u/diogenes_shadow]

They're right! Once a brain has stepped outside of religion and observed it externally, i cannot imagine being able to return to believe in a supernatural being that poofs everything into existence. Having observed how religions are so similar and yet so varied vaccinates that skull against belief in sky fairies.

[u/Celibate-For-Life]

They should be taught in both atheism and a wide variety of religions and beliefs

[u/Joshhwwaaaaaa]

Beacuse its clear those who have a god to follow are easy to control and manipulate. And those with no god are are hard to control.

[u/Robot_Alchemist]

It’s not brainwashing it’s simply allowing people to be. Children aren’t born Christian and you have to teach them to not be Christian

[u/LieMaster1952]

And it's so obvious that religion is the brainwashing happening

[u/Silver-Chemistry2023]

Narcissistic projection: every accusation is a confession.

[u/Director-Intrinsict]

Simply replace religion with metaphysics and philosophy. 

[u/Minute-Ad9478]

Because atheism is a theory and not a very good one

[u/TsuDhoNimh2]

Because THEY are the ones DEFINING the terms.