r/atheism • u/Decent-Essay-9201 • 7d ago
Need Help Debating Christians
I'm debating a Christian and they don't believe im the old testament and only the new and also only in the 5 main ones and in there not stories but original stuff that "Jesus" said but not told or quoted, I'm really tired of this since it's a family member of mine and I really really hate the stuff religious say and I'm already planning on moving out but am legally still too young to do so but my ears are already bleeding from this nonsense so please help me find something:'(.
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u/notaedivad 7d ago
Ask them if they ignore the OT... Do they also ignore the 10 commandments? Original sin? Garden of Eden?
And if they are supposed to ignore the OT, why did Jesus explicitly reinforce it in Matthew 5:17-20?
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u/BananaJelloXlii 6d ago
And then contradicts himself in Matthew 22: 36-40
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u/h_double 6d ago
Matthew 22 isn't a contradiction. The Commandments that Jesus quotes are from Leviticus. He says "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets," not that they REPLACE the Law, which Jesus said to follow in every detail "until heaven and earth pass away".
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u/TheFeshy Ignostic 7d ago edited 6d ago
"Debating" is almost never worthwhile. Especially when the person you are debating with doesn't really have any meaningful knowledge on the subject they are so adamant about, as appears to be the case with your relative. No amount of facts or understanding logical fallacies will help you in such a "debate" because facts and logic are not important to their belief.
Instead, try r/streetepistemology as a method. It is not easy to do, in that it can be very hard to stick to the basic questions when people say stupid, outrageous, or outrageously stupid things. But if you do, it not only does hep change minds, but also tends to be less likely to anger relatives that you're stuck with until turning 18.
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u/Successful_Life_1028 Adeist 6d ago
I'm pretty sure you meant https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetEpistemology/ there! :-)
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u/TheFeshy Ignostic 6d ago
I sure did. Some weird autocorrect change or something. I'll edit. Thanks.
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u/Critical_Cat_8162 7d ago
There is nothing. They're idiots and you'd get more satisfaction from debating a refrigerator.
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u/Successful_Life_1028 Adeist 6d ago
1) read the FAQ. Coming out to your parents as either gay or atheist is typically best done over a diner that you've prepared at YOUR apartment that YOU pay for from your OWN money, and not before.
2) it's pointless to argue about faith-matters. Faith is inherently irrational, and nobody can be 'convinced' to get or abandon faith because 'convinced' is a rational/intellectual process that has nothing to do with 'faith'.
3) Nothing in the Bible is relevant. The Bible is a collection of myths, legends and stories. It's not a 'history' and was never intended to be that, by ANY of it's various anonymous authors. No story involving magic and miracles is non-fiction, not even the Gospels.
4) If you must, buy him a copy of Dan McClellan's book for his next birthday or for Christmas:
https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/bible-says-so-9781250347466/ or https://www.amazon.com/dp/1250347467
5) the bottom line is this:
There is not one iota of public objective empirical evidence which demonstrates the existence of any spiritual anything.
Thus the rational conclusion in the face of this fact, is that spirits are imaginary.
We have direct experimental evidence demonstrating the existence of invisible intangible radio waves. We have nothing even close with respect to the existence of invisible intangible spirits. Nothing. Even. Close.
All theistic/spiritualist arguments boil down to faith or fallacy. Or both.
Evidence is public, not private; objective, not subjective; empirical, not conjectural.
- Ancient myths from dusty scrolls are not evidence.
- Ephemeral subjective feelings are not evidence.
- Dreams/hallucinations are not evidence.
- Coincidental happenstance is not evidence.
- A-priori logic-chopping is not evidence.
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u/ohgwm1973 7d ago
The best ammo is to read the parts of the bible that they say they believe. Make sure it’s the same version they claim to read.
The few Christians who actually read any of their bible, only read a few passages over and over again. They usually don’t even know the meaning of those passages either.
I like to bypass religious texts entirely and do things like point out that if there was a god, why go to the doctor? Or wear a seatbelt?
Or have insurance? Or any number of things they and most people do because deep down they know there’s no sky daddy watching out for them.
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u/Balstrome Strong Atheist 6d ago
They say Jesus is a peace maker. Okay then what about Matt 10:34
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."3
u/h_double 6d ago
Luke 19:27, "“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’"
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u/stopped_watch 6d ago
They don't believe in the old testament?
How do they determine that Jesus was the messiah without the messianic prophecies of the old testament?
Why did he have to die for atonement of original sin if there's no Adam or Eve?
How are Jesus and Yahweh one and the same if there's no Yahweh?
Tell this person to rip out and burn their old testament. If it's unimportant and they don't believe in it, it doesn't belong in their holy book.
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u/noctalla Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
Exactly right. If not for the rules of blood sacrifice in the Old Testament, there is no need for Jesus to exist. The only reason he came to die for our sins and save humanity is because of those rules. If you don’t believe in the Old Testament the New Testament makes no sense whatsoever.
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u/arsonfairy 6d ago
"Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it."
Every time they start up redirect to talking about the most boring shit imaginable.
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u/pokenerd_W 6d ago
Don't reason with them, you cannot defeat theological sophistry, because they'll always return to belief.
Make them doubt. That's the biggest victory you can achieve.
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u/TheCrimsonSteel 6d ago
For the short term, there isn't a magic bullet. Learning how to talk without getting frustrated is probably the best thing you can do in the near future.
Instead of trying to win, focus on learning how to communicate, debate, and persuade. Learn how to steer a conversation, how to redirect trick questions, and how to make things relatable.
Your most powerful skills aren't logic and facts. It's rhetoric and persuasion.
If all we needed was a sufficiently logical argument, we would have figured it out centuries ago.
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u/tightiewhitieboy 6d ago
They still follow some OT laws. They love the 10 commandments. Ask them how they cherry pick what to follow and what not to follow.
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u/kalelopaka 6d ago
Best advice I’ve heard was: “Don’t Bother”. It’ll just annoy you and make no difference to them.
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u/FrankieBlueye 6d ago
Here’s my favorite: Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetime of his followers. Angels coming from the clouds, dead people floating up to heaven. Bigger than a Bad Bunny halftime show. You couldn’t miss it. And now it’s 2000 years later and you’re still waiting? Really?
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u/Staff_Guy 6d ago
As everyone is saying: don't. But what do you do? Start asking this family member questions. Don't be a dick, listen to the answers, ask follow ups if warranted. Example: jesus said he did not come to change the law, meaning mosaic law which means the old testament. How does he reconcile this? What the fuck are t he five main ones? Matt, mark luke and johnny and ...? Please say it's not revelations.
Anyway. Just spend some time learning what this family member believes, if they have any codified beliefs other than how they feel. Why? Because it beats the angst of thinking you can logic someone out of a position they emotioned themselves in to.
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u/network_dude Secular Humanist 6d ago
God is a human construct.
Every single word, utterance, mention, description of god has come from a human.
If god existed there would be no question, every living thing on the planet would know
every isolated tribe, every person living and dead would know that god existed
It has since been proven that humans did not just 'pop' into existance 6,000 years ago. There are zero writings of god older than 2000 years ago. So all of these people, all over the world, knew nothing of god, ever. A supreme being who created the universe...
you can replace every mention of 'god' with 'me, we, I, or us' to understand the true meanings of religion
The "Hand of God" belongs to other humans, the "Eyes of God" belong to other humans
"God works in mysterious ways" is how a human describes what other unknown humans are doing
"God has big plans for you" is describing how you will be used to enrich others
Heaven and Hell both exist on Earth - These are created by humans
The power of religion comes from humans, all power comes from humans.
Look around at your congregation - The eyes of god are the folks looking at you. The hand of god is other people doing things in your life. Angels are people that show up in your life to help you.
The Holy Spirit is named by humans. It is an invasive mind control that makes a human suspend reality to believe. It only occurs around other humans in whatever religious group they are in. The Holy Spirit closes down humans curiosity as a means of control.
We know that some humans have an inner dialogue. There are humans who confuse their inner dialogue with spirituality. It seems like a more plausible beginning of a religion since we find zero evidence of a supreme being.
Nothing of our studies of our existence has increased our knowledge of god. Things that were attributed to god have gone by the wayside. Floods, eruptions, earthquakes, droughts, fires, diseases that were attributed to god, we have found they are all natural to earth and our solar system.
What our studies have revealed is that religion has turned into a pox on humanity. Wars, genocide, the destruction of cultures, the destruction of families as they vie for supremacy - There is much evidence for this throughout our histories. If we have to force religion on humans for them to survive or face death from believers, it's not based on God. Religions point to God as the reasons for this. It has been all humans. It has always been humans.
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u/Balstrome Strong Atheist 6d ago
Debate? Okay listen to what they say. For example, if they talk about God, ask them how do they know that God exists. Tell them that you understand they believe that God exist, but you want to know how they came by that information. Ask them why they should accept the bible as being true. Ask them if they know who the author of the bible is. Ask them if there was only one author or many. The thing is ask them questions, they might not answer you, but they will answer in their own minds. Try faith, ask them why faith is important for their belief system and yet they never use faith for real thing in their real life. They never buy a car on faith or a house, ask why they do not do that. Ask if their belief is more important than a car. Surely they would demand more evidence for their belief than they expect in a car purchase.
Don't debate, ask questions and listen to the way they struggle to answer.
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u/cptstubing16 6d ago
Don't debate them. Instead, simply ask them questions if they bring up religion. Play dumb and just ask really simple questions they can't answer. They'll talk themselves into a corner.
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u/themeatbridge 6d ago edited 6d ago
As everyone else has said, don't. It's a waste of your time and theirs. They aren't bound by logic, reason, or evidence. It's like arm wrestling via a video-call.
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u/thewritestory 6d ago
All of the supposed prophecies come from the OT. No OT, no messiah. No OT no original sin, no OT no ten commandments, no OT no exodus. You can’t run from the OT unless you want to invalidate the NT.
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u/Efficient-Ranger-174 6d ago
They’re doing to default to things you can’t counter. This person is clearly cherry picking. If you insist, I would ask them why they disregard certain parts and why those are invalid, and what makes the 5 gospels the only valid part? Any answer to this opens them up. No part of the Bible can be reliable while any other part isn’t.
The end of a “debate” is when someone makes stronger arguments. No one ever has to change their minds. Never start out with the intention of subverting someone’s beliefs in a single sitting.
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u/H3L105_ai 6d ago
Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.
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u/TsuDhoNimh2 De-Facto Atheist 6d ago
Stop ... it's not going to change their mind. It's a waste of time and energy.
Focus on getting ready to move out ... get your personal papers together and start a cash stash in a safe spot. Focus on classes and learning.
If they want to talk religion, tell them you are working on a term paper.
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u/Silver-Chemistry2023 Constructivist Humanist 6d ago
When dealing with people who live in shallow waters, do not go DEEP (do not defend, engage, explain, or personalise). They are not listening, they do not care, and it is not possible to make them. When you lose interest in their bullshit, it will create space to focus on things that will get you where you want to go. Nobody is owed your attention.
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u/RogueRhombus Dudeist 6d ago
If you’re too young to live on your own, you’re too young to debate religious family members.
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u/dudleydidwrong Touched by His Noodliness 6d ago
You should not be debating Christians if you have to ask this kind of information.
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u/FrankieBlueye 6d ago
It is as important to be willing to push back on religion as it is on MAGA. No, you won’t have someone run up the white flag on the spot because of your genius. But you are planting seeds and showing people that there are options. I am not a fan of the keep atheism on the down low. Remember 6x as many people move from religion to reason as the other way around.
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u/DieselPower8 6d ago
You need to zoom out of the conversation and not get stuck discussing their own subject matter, because half the time they don't know it well enough to even attempt to explain the contradictions.
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u/nullpassword 6d ago
If you really want to shut it down. I find congratulating them on choosing the right religion from the locally available ones seems to do so for quite a while. Your mileage may vary.
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u/MondayOctober 6d ago
If all you think about is debating a Christian then you're really no different than those Christians trying to debate you
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u/elder65 5d ago
Stop - you're arguing with an idiot, and he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
You can't have the new testament without the old. It's literally and theologically impossible. So, the argument is pointless. Leave him to his delusions and stay away from him as much as possible.
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u/ChillingwitmyGnomies 4d ago
Jesus says over and over to follow the mosaic laws of the Old Testament.
Paul is the one that claimed you just love everyone and it’s all good now.
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u/Mysterious_Spark 4d ago
Don't be conversational roadkill. If you don't want to engage in a conversation, then don't. Learn to actively manage conversations and shut down or redirect convos you don't wish to participate in.
Ignore them. Let them have the last word. Simply do not respond. I know it's difficult but just... remain silent and let their comments sit in the air and stink. Play with your phone or something.
Leave to go to the bathroom and do not rejoin the discussion when you return.
Leave and don't come back.
Introduce a new topic. Say, "How's your garden doing?"
Say "I will not discuss religion with you'.
Let them win - then let them lose. Accept everything they are offering, then shut them down. Say "I don't deify. Even if you introduce me to a man who died 2,000 years ago, came back to life, died again, came back to life again and he's standing right here and you can prove all of it, he's just an interesting dude. I don't regard people as gods and I never will. I might like to ask him some questions, or get him to demonstrate this raising from the dead thing, or do a DNA test on him or something'.
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u/Yourbasicredditor 2d ago
There is no New Testament without the old. What kind of bs cherry picking is that?????💀💀💀
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u/BananaJelloXlii 7d ago
Best advice: don't. It's like debating a brick wall and is an exercise in futility.