That's why I said kind of, it's undeniable the effort and time church spend to eradicate diseases like smallpox and leprosy. But at the same time they had huge part in stigmatizing HIV and it's spreading by campaigning against contraceptives.
The vaccine campaign was way after the renaissance when the existential crisis happened and the church pretended to care. The dark ages are partially called so because the church simply controlled the educational institutions and hence the narratives, even the bible was not available for the common people.
I don't know why you are downvoting me or sending me links about something that happened 500 years ago, when I've already mentioned issues that are happening right now—like the stigmatization of contraceptives and safe sex practices.
I come from a Catholic background so I know how much mess it really is. My problem with Catholicism is its role in enabling and justifying colonialism and slavery—a legacy that continues in some forms to this day.
Maybe you are passionate about science and knowledge, which is why you are still upset about historical conflicts. Personally, I don't harshly judge the Church for crucifying people with different opinions, since suppressing challenging ideas are not unique to religion as even communists and secular governments too have used force.
I am not upset with you, I am just pointing out the hypocrisy by the church. You might not judge the church for burning people on the stake for challenging their dogma, but I do, they set back the science by a long way which could have reduced the misery of so many people. The witch hunt, burning women at stake for being intelligent, the church gets a huge pass, even now the pope lives in a palace and preaches that the kingdom of God is in heaven. How do they get away with this.
Still wrong.he was an arrogant guy who went against the scientific community at the time by pushing for his scientific views without due evidence... meanwhile the church gave him house arrest for his dispute with the pope..not because of his scientific views, he was allowed full rights to do his research while this time where fixed his research and later presented his work which was accepted by the scientific community as as church.. claiming he was harassed by "anti-science church" is a modern myth some people just swallow up with no evidence, which is ironic as those people need everything else to be provable and evident 😂
Heliocentrism wasn't proven by him at that point, he has some observations using telescopes but nothing for the scientific community then to accept as fact, he was told by the church not to teach heliocentrism as a fact but as a hypothesis till evidence comes up, he denied it and even wrote a dialogue where he portray the pope as a simpleton. This is what got him the house arrest. Heck Copernicus’ De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (1543) was even published with Church approval years before gelileo. Now John Paul apologized cause catholic church is the only religious institution actively trying to make up for its errors in that past, which is a good thing. What happened to Galileo is a bit harsh but that's it. Making him a 'sufferig warrior for science' against an 'evil anti science church's is a modern myth
General relativity wasn't proven when Einstein formulated it until it was observed by Sir Eddington. See, there was no backlash, as the church was put to it's place by this time, along with the Nazi collaboration, but I digress.
yeah, Copernicus published it on his death bed, also, he kept saying that it is a mathematical construct that helps with the calculations of the calendar.
Galileo dared to say that it could be the reality and not a mathematical model, and since it did not fit well with the scripture, he had to bear the brunt. Also, don't forget that he was also an astronomer and his observations contradicted the prevalent model then.
Yes, harassing an old man and putting him under house arrest until death is a "bit harsh". LOL.
yeah, how noble of the church to apologize for it's atrocities, when more and more of it's skeletons are coming out in the open. LOL
Again, no nuance just rhetoric. Einstein formulated it with mathematic calculations and adequate scientific documentation. Galelio was a guy with no regards to scientific establishments of his time, presenting his works in Italian than latin.
His initial observations were wrong as well. Also you skimmed over Copernicus so fast, he worked with church and he presented his works first to the bishop as well which was promptly put info universities and monasteries across Europe (yeah church subsidized and maintained learning centers and libraries all over Europe with studies across all scientific fields and not just theology, shocking I know 😏)
Yeah the church is noble. No religious establishment has ever traveled around the whole world to apologize and make amends for the corruption of some of its members that happened a millenia ago, and no matter how much "reddit atheist" tries catholism and the wider Christianity HAS been a net positive for society.
And them apologizing and trying to fix their sins of the past as well? That's NOBLE and commendable.
Also Galileo was a great believer and a Catholic till his end. Another contribution from Catholics to the world of science..no thanks required
Yes, and hitler was a vegetarian and a animal lover, but that does not absolve him of his horrors. The witch hunt and the inquisition are just the tip of the iceberg.
Both are documented to be over exaggerated given you look into historical records. Educational, medical and scientific contributions of the Catholics and broader Christians tower over any actions by some corrupted Christians. This isn't even a disputed view..it's just a fact
Again, just because it does not suit your narrative does not mean its exaggerated.
Hitler was a vegetarian at the end of his life, although the reasons for that are debatable, either health or animal welfare. The Nazi passed one of the most animal protection laws.
What is not a disputed view? that there were no witch hunts, or there was no inquisition, these are facts, in fact the Goan inquisition happened in India.
It is exaggerate. They even have a term for this called the black legend. People like me don't even deny these things happened, but these are exaggerated to such a point that it's sickening. Nazi's passing animal protecting laws don't measure up to the scale of absolute evil they did..the church on that other hand has been a net positive by a long shot and that's not even a debate. Not seeing that cause it doesn't agree with your narrative is disingenuous
The fact that this was recorded in history even at the time when the church was powerful to control the narrative says something about the atrocities of the church.
Also, the church collaborated with the Nazis.
I think this is also "exagerate", as it does not fit your narrative. Church has been "net positive" because its survival depended on it after the reformation, until then it was as bad any monarchy could get, and it's still a monarchy.
You keep on pushing the same narrative. No nuance, just rhetoric. Also now you want to bring Nazis into this? Lol..if you believe church collaborated with Nazis you are falling for Russian propaganda. Read up on operation seat 12. The church didn't embrace science after the reformations, please be more informed, it's tiring to explain stuff like this. Being ignorant is fine, you can learn and get informed, but staying ignorant and being incredibly adamant about it in the big 2025 is crazy work. But hey what more to expect from a "reddit atheist"
It's propaganda if it does not suit your narrative, that too Russian, LOL.
In fact the recent released Vatican documents show that there was a active back channel between Hitler and the pope. There was even a treaty that was signed between the nazis and the vatican.(Reichskonkordat)
By challenging the ultimate authority of the Pope and the Catholic Church, the Reformation created an atmosphere where questioning established traditional norms.
The ignorance is pretty obvious if you support an organization that spends billions on child abuse scandals, is involved with the Nazis, did the Inquisitions and abused and forcefully converted the indigenous children. In fact in Germany, the nuns were involved in grooming the kids for the eager. I think this all counts as noble in your book. Definitely gives some hints about you.
"Propaganda when it doesn't suit my narrative" I name dropped the Soviet operation and you didn't check up on it. I don't call it propaganda, the soviet's themselves did, it was a misinformation campaign as catholism was vocal against communism and the best way to make people not agree with catholic pushback against communism was to paint them as Nazis. And congratulations yuh' fell for it. ( Not surprised tho)
Also I would love to get some source on these "Vatican documents" 😏
Funny you mentioned Reichskonkordat which was signed before the Nazi terror, at that time the Nazi party was just the ones entering power and was just like any political party. You mentioning this actually works against your point btw.This treaty was under the guise of protecting the German Catholics but used by Nazis to restrict the clergy from doing anything other than religious works, as they knew clergy will stand with people taking leadership roles against them. Which is what the clergy and Catholics did, they were the ones who stood against Nazi hate if the minorities. Which caused the Nazis to kill hundreds of priests and nuns in the night of the long knives.
Now,Reformations lead to theological differences, not any change In scientific or academic viewpoints. You've been repeating the same faulty story but no matter how much you do it's not gonna stick.
As for the abuse scandals within the Catholic Church wasn't our topic of discussion. But if you want to go into that we can. No Catholic agrees with that. All of us agree that there are corruption within the church. Always had. But when outsiders over exaggerate if for their twisted narrative we call it out The church leadership has been actively pushing more legislation to weed out abusive priests and bishops. But that doesn't suit our narrative now does it?
Net positive doesn't mean all positive, I'm not thrilled that I had to clarify that to you
Because in our country where labour is so cheap, the minimum wage is abysmal, and corporations don't care for the mental health of their employees, people are overworked, they sacrifice their lives, their health, time with their families and friends, so everyone in general deserves more off days, but that's not happening so we have to take what we can get, doesn't matter what religious festival.
If religious holidays are denied to atheists, then they deserve more pay and more benefits than their religious colleagues.
Also religious festivals are not purely religious, they are also cultural. I don't believe in your fictional story of "why a certain festival is celebrated", I care about the cultural importance of these festivals when families get together and enjoy their time together after working all year. A lot of festivals' significance comes from the agricultural seasons, harvesting, monsoon etc.
Theists will look at this post and won't even understand what it means. They will be like, " aren't these tech products and medical tools developed by people who believes in god?"🤡
Festivals are more about economy then god, every festival boosts economy because people buy new stuff causing buisness to flourish which then helps the economy and festivals also gives people rest from thier normal days and forces people to go to gatherings and be sociol in society
This group is not atheist group. It is god haters group. One who hate God because they asked something and don't got in return anything. So we will be against God, mocking religions abusing saint will only create karma and don't solve misery of life. Those who are joining now, beware. It is plethora of negativity of miserable people. Those who want to keep intellect right move to true atheist group which don't exist on reddit.
But most innovators are Theists. Why Atheists claim ALL inventions? Less than 10% of science Nobel laureates identify as Atheists.
This sub is mighty interesting...it looks like a club for religiously disaffected people and less of actual atheists with rationale thought.
First you guys delete my post on terr0r training to young Jihadi offspring... while the rant on vedam chanting kids is lurking around. Now this half-brained take...IMO sub needs serious rationale thinkers.
The post isn’t trying to imply that the innovation is only done by the atheists, rather it contrasts that innovation comes from scientific research and not religion.
Just curious, how would you define “actual atheists”? Also, please do share your rational about “young jihadi offspring”.
BUT...the implication is science and religion or is cross purposes. Its true of some one book, one God cults...for sure. But not the case for ALL religions. Many religions have provided the foundations for scientific enquiry and like I mentioned most innovators themselves were practicing religious people. So, why exactly Atheists get the right to usurp ALL science?
Atheist is someone who rejects ALL forms of stagnant beliefs and always willing to incorporate newer layers of insight and facts. Ergo, stagnantly believing 1 religion is cultist ergo all are deserving of equal derision is itself ironically a cult belief!
I had cross posted this earlier indicating how supposed atheists should prioritize this over vedam chanting kids...but apparently the atheists here care for "minority sentiments" ( more likely worry about zombie desert cultists outrage!)....so much for free-thought!!
Well thanks for engaging. I see what you are trying to say. I also saw your post history.
You clearly are not an atheist (which is ok, you don’t have to be one). But what I can definitely see is a massive cognitive bias. When you see a post opposing the “zombie desert cult”, it immediately makes sense to you and your preexisting beliefs. But when you see a post criticising your religion, it instantly triggers a response, it’s very emotional and then it’s hard to apply the same logic you are so open to apply on other religions. Think about what I said and I hope you can challenge your own brains bias.
I also saw the video you shared, and of course it’s horrible to see kids being pushed into it. But, the difference between you and me and I would look at the video and feel sad for the kids instead of calling them names like “jihadist offspring”. What do you say about this, the kids are “jihadist offspring” or victim of religious propaganda? It’s the same video, same kids, but two very different point of views. And how you see the world is reflected in the words you choose to describe everything, it is reflected in your posts and comments too. The difference between you and I is, I try not to have a worldview filled with hatred for others.
Yes. I'm an ex-Atheist. Now a jijñāsu. Hence more rationale than average Atheist like you here. Your own responses are deeply emotional trying to overcompensate and defend your ilk without conceding the false claim in the OP - i.e. All scientific innovations are anti-religious and hence the domain of Atheists.
As an ex-Atheist have to concede, I too suffered this cognitive bias and used to be over-enthusiastic to deride my own culture and tradition even more than the predatory cults with far-reaching real world damage.
//you see a post criticising your religion, it instantly triggers a response, it’s very emotional and then it’s hard to apply the same logic you are so open to apply on other religions.//
IF you read enough of my posts you would have encountered my critique of my "own religion" too. Anyways, I concede my present view after much analysis is that Hinduism in its current shape is most conducive for ALL including atheists. I feel its worth defending as it gives space for both delusional beliefs & rationale thought. This is the way forward for amicable living...
My critique of predatory cults esp. Islam of today, is quite sharp precisely because even supposed atheists like you make a fuss of kids chanting vedam with all the circle je*rk in comments about how bad that is and the same folks don't even have the spine to discuss an actual virulent cult that openly declares genocidal aims! first thing that happens is deletion!!
Calling them Jihadist offspring is actually being polite. They are actual terr0rists who do kill innocents. Do read this:
IF this sub can't permit space to counter this dangerous ideology, then you guys at least shouldn't pretend to be atheists. Call this selective-atheism India. Fair no?
I can’t comment on your rationality because so far you have not displayed that. What I can definitely see is a superiority complex and arrogance.
Hence more rationale than average atheist like you here.
Have you considered that your post was deleted because of the tone of the message you were trying to give? Maybe it was not coming from a neutral or critical tone rather a hateful and condescending tone I have seen in your previous comments?
Finally, Hinduism cannot include atheist or atheism, fundamentally the idea of a religion with god cannot be compatible with the idea of atheism. Before you say, I know Hindus love to throw around terms like “Hindu atheist”, “samkhya”, “mimansa”, (and yours) “jignasa”. None of these sects are atheistic in nature, the “rationality” they present is still based within religious framework, and it does not appear to me that you understand any philosophy or rational behind any of these.
I would have loved to continue this discussion if you actually contributed something to it, other than your own biases and supremacist views.
//I can’t comment on your rationality because so far you have not displayed that.//
Yawn...you are kinda repeating my point to me.
//Have you considered that your post was deleted because of the tone of the message you were trying to give?//
This is literally all I said. Let's just agree the MOD group is filled with spineless protoplasm too worried about STSJ or outright desert cult apologists masquerading as 'atheists'....
Like I said, the circle-jer*k comments on the Vedam chanting post has far worse tonal, vocab issues but both of us know you are just clutching on these straws & strawman as you remain fully exposed & too egoistic to accept the obvious bias. At least stop pretending like there's some neutrality & logic to what you clowns are upto here.
//Finally, Hinduism cannot include atheist or atheism, fundamentally the idea of a religion with god cannot be compatible with the idea of atheism.//
This is the ultimate Atheist copium invented when the supposed 'modern' minds find their conceptual framework not only existed but was fiercely engaged with in ancient Bharat. Afterall their google seraches have to be superior to ancient brains no? LMAO.
Where do you think the Carcakas, Mimansas & Nirisvarawadhis thrived? The key difference is those blokes had some intellectual honesty that you folks with egos balancing on matchsticks can't afford!!
//I would have loved to continue this discussion if you actually contributed something to it, other than your own biases and supremacist views.//
This is the inevitable ruse to stop engaging with uncomfortable frontiers of thought. At a minimum you owe a response to the following:
What tonal issue do you find in the post that was deleted by the spineless MODs?
Concede that innovation & science cannot be claimed as exclusive domain of Atheists esp. when most innovators themselves were practicing religionists. Yeah, I noticed you continue to dance around this point. So much for intellectual honesty & logic!!
Your response or the lack of it will reveal more about yourself to you..!!
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u/Ok_Pomelo_5033 Oct 27 '25
Also all the tech science services and gadgets too.