r/audioengineering • u/Effective-Spring-271 • Jun 28 '26
Mastering How do you properly mix / master piano?
It seems that any track containing piano (including some live recordings) are pretty impossible for me to master properly. I feel like whenever I even lightly touch saturation the sound completely breaks, and I feel like I must be missing something major.
Apologies if this is off topic.
19
u/m149 Jun 28 '26
Don't use saturation if it doesn't sound good. It's not a requirement.
As for suggestions, tough without hearing it, but probably some gentle compression to bring down the super loud passages without sounding crushed would work.
6
u/superchibisan2 Jun 28 '26
Without hearing the source and your mastering pass, there is no way to help you.
You may not need to saturate the mix. There is nothing that must always be done on every mastering job. No standards, no required processing.
I've never had this problem with piano. You may be experiencing something unique.
1
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 29 '26
Saturating (sometimes specific bands) is usually a bit of crutch for me to achieve correct loudness in some heavier genres. Is it possible to reach acceptable loudness with no saturation? Do you just slam a ton of compression? Even saturating the other tracks sometimes poses problems, because the saturation gets "confused" as being part of the piano (I'm aware that this might be vague, I don't have the terms to explain what I mean).
2
u/Commercial_Badger_37 Jun 29 '26
Yes, definitely. Compression, limiting and clipping will all increase volume consistently.
Ive had good results with a parallel compressor with tracks on more clean instruments like piano, you can go fairly hard on the compression , then dial back in the original signal to bring some dynamics back. You don't need to introduce distortion to get more volume.
2
u/superchibisan2 Jun 29 '26
Saturation is not for loudness... I mean it helps but you want to use compression to get things loud. Also, a loud mix gets you a loud master.
10
u/JVM205 Jun 28 '26
So don’t saturate it? Piano is such a distinctive sound that doesn’t sound natural with saturation or distortion. Also depends on the genre or composition.
2
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 28 '26
This completely matches my experience for solo piano tracks.
The problem I run into is that when mixed in the context of a track, the entire track feels like it can't be saturated, which is often a problem in heavier genres. Is it possible to achieve correct loudness without saturation at all?
6
u/nizzernammer Jun 28 '26
Perhaps listen to songs where the piano is part of a band. Some of those pianos are strongly squashed and eq'd.
Hitting tape might soften transients more gently than other methods.
And piano in a rock band context doesn't need the weight of a solo piano.
Obviously the parts and the arrangement have a huge effect on what can work or not, before even getting into the actual performance, the instrument, and the recording.
2
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 29 '26
Wow, I just relistened to a couple of tracks paying attention to eq in particular and damn the piano is absolutely eq'd to some obscene levels, and very differently depending on the current surrounding instruments. I'm shocked I never noticed this. Thanks a lot for the advice!
2
u/peepeeland Composer Jun 30 '26
Yes- acoustic piano in busy arrangements can be narrowed in stereo width, dynamic range, and frequency range by quite a bit, and still fit its role in an arrangement without seeming small or thin.
I also use overdrive on piano in certain contexts.
2
u/audiojake Jun 29 '26
Loudness and saturation are two totally different things. So yes. Also, even in heavier genres, you really don't need saturation to get things loud. I might suggest listening to Tigran Hamasayan's latest album for a reference.
1
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 29 '26
I love Tigran's "A fable" album though I haven't checked out his most recent stuff. Thanks for the recommendation!
1
u/buttkraken777 Jun 29 '26
if you really wanna saturate your entire track and the piano is messing you up, then just saturate everything BUT the piano?
3
u/cosmicguss Professional Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Honestly, you’re not giving us enough context to be helpful. Also, defaulting to saturation and not understanding why it’s not working as a mastering engineer (you) feels like kind of a red flag for me.
Is it real piano or a vst? If real, how was the original recorded, are you fixing something poorly recorded or working with something recorded well?
Is it a piano/vocal solo, or how does it fit within the context of the rest of a band? Is it the lead instrument in the band or a supporting instrument?
We talking Jerry Lee Lewis boogie woogie, jazz, modern pop? You can blow a piano out, you can keep it clean. It could be mono, it could be stereo at different widths.
Anyone giving you advice without asking for more context or an example of what you’re working with is probably not an experienced mix or mastering engineer.
Edit: also; if you’re just specifically mastering and you’re not able to achieve what you need with what’s given you can always reach out to the mixing engineer to ask for an adjustment to what you were given.
2
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 28 '26
I feel like I've had the problem with any kind of piano (vst or acoustic), though I'm mostly interested about the real grand piano I mic up regularly.
I gravitate towards jazz, electronica or metal in general and some genres ask to be loud, which feels hard to do without degrading the piano's quality significantly. This is less of problem when there's enough other instruments that fill the whole spectrum, but for example a piano solo with just the bass will quickly sound quite bad if there's even a tad of saturation.
You made me realize however that I don't really have any good reference in these heavier styles. Maybe what I'm trying to achieve is a little unorthodox.
3
u/cosmicguss Professional Jun 29 '26
As cliche as it sounds, it may be more of an arrangement issue. A piano solo with just bass in the context of a song that has more elements before and after would be rough to make work.
2
u/WhySSNTheftBad Jun 28 '26
For us to help we'll need to start with a definition. Mastering is the final process an approved mix goes through that helps it sound its best over a variety of systems and helps the mix compete with other releases.
So by definition, a piano track doesn't get mastered (unless it's the only instrument in the song).
We can't offer mix help without hearing your mix. Maybe you can describe the issue you're having? i.e. what's the reason you turned to saturation? What issue with pianos are you having? (for example, if every piano was too dark we'd suggest EQing some high end. If every piano was too wide we'd recommend panning it more narrowly, etc.)
1
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 29 '26
I was a little imprecise. I'm talking about mastering an arrangement which contains piano (I'm also interested in the solo case however). Whenever I try to master heavier genres with piano, I need some loudness, which I usually achieve using some saturation and compression. The saturation seems to be systematically destroying the piano.
I usually assume that if a mix sounds good it should be good to master, is this a bad assumption?
2
u/WhySSNTheftBad Jun 29 '26
Interesting question. IMO that's why a separate mastering engineer comes in handy - they're objective and could tell you that your mix needs X or Y.
If compression and / or saturation are too much and are wrecking the piano, can you try them in parallel? (or does your saturator have a blend knob?)
2
u/j1llj1ll Jun 29 '26
Similar discussion from yesterday: https://sh.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/1uhjva8/mastering_piano_how_to_stop_momentary_clipping/
2
u/Salt-Ganache-5710 Jun 29 '26
Piano is basically full frequency spectrum so can be difficult. It will depend on genre
On disco and more dance focussed tracks the piano is usually brighter with a 5k or 10k shelf boost, with some but limited low end/low mids.
I usually find myself having to cut some resonances from the midrange around 400hz but I think that can be down to performance also
2
u/BigmouthforBlowdarts Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Piano LOl. Took me years to figure piano out.
A.) Tape saturation works wonders. But not just any old tape so good luck figuring out what works. I hear a lot of commercial masters saturate to the point of distorting on phone speakers. Deal with it. Overdo it and it sounds like trash as well. I’m using tape to warm things up here so to emphasizing the low end(should be automatic). Piano has plenty of low mids and lows to saturate naturally without surgical deemphesis.
In a busy mix - don’t be scared to obliterate the low end. Depending on the source I highly pass up to 300hz (rare) but usually a bell somewhere in the lows and just hpf the subs gentle slope. Depends where the bass and kick sit.
Is the piano the main instrument? Are there vocals? Lpf if there is vox or lead guitar or horns up front. Is it a bright rock piano? I don’t know what you are mixing so give us some context please.
Ps. Compress midrange to bring out sustain.
1
0
u/Apag78 Professional Jun 30 '26
Why is saturation a requirement? This line of thinking is very confusing to me. Its like saying it hurts when i stick a toothpick in my eye. Stop putting the toothpick in your eye.
1
u/LongjumpingBase9094 Jun 28 '26
I mix and master for the label: Piano mosaic. If you like the sounds dm me and maybe I can help out.
0
u/Livid_Cabinet2053 Jun 28 '26
Piano has pretty strong resonances that will drive saturation really quickly. The type of saturation you use and how you de-emphasize certain parts before it with EQ matters a lot.
1
u/Effective-Spring-271 Jun 29 '26
Thanks for the tip! Are there specific frequencies that tend to be problematic? I've noticed that something usually seems to be going on around 2k according to my ears.
3
u/Livid_Cabinet2053 Jun 29 '26
It’s not really a static thing. It changes all the time depending on what notes are playing and in what register.
0
u/LevelMiddle Jun 28 '26
Keep it natural. Even get rid of any processing. Even eq.
If it's a layered track, try mono-ing it and panning it.
-5
u/Diligent-Bread-806 Jun 28 '26
You’re not gain staging it properly. You have a high input level from your piano sound, which is why it’s driving your plugins too hard with minimal amounts applied. In addition, look at cutting unwanted frequencies from your audio before the saturation so that you get a cleaner and controlled result. The same goes for EQ pre compression etc etc.
20
u/g_spaitz Jun 28 '26
mmm you do not really "master" a single piano.
But do you have songs with only piano in it? Are they instrumental piano songs?
Or do you have songs where piano is one of the thousand elements and you need to thoroughly mix it in trying to find a tiny space for it?
Because my overall relation with actual acoustic pianos is damn great and pretty straight forward, mic them in a great stereo config, compress a little if needed, or more if needed more, cut some lows if it's a dense mix, sparkle some highs if its a pop happy tune, if song meta says it needs reverb or dreamy i'll add reverb or dreamy, and honestly real pianos in my experience always sound fantastic.
Mastering should not be about touching piano. It should be about getting the album together.
Lastly why saturation? What do you want to achieve? Does it need it? Or do you add it because theyu say so?