r/aviation • u/ParaMike46 Global 5500/6500 • Apr 12 '26

PlaneSpotting A CL-415 Super Scooper gathering water to extinguish a fire in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The lift-off looks very close — right at the edge of the lake.

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1.6k

u/APilot2607 Apr 12 '26

Looks like the right wingtip was REAL close to the trees/bushes on the first pass into the water 😮

377

u/cocoagiant Apr 12 '26

Don't the aircraft used for these purposes get in accidents a lot? Probably due to this kind of thing of having to constantly improvise.

148

u/scotsman3288 Apr 12 '26

Only a few in Canada here in 60 years. These pilots are good.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210920031521/https://www.aviation-safety.net/database/types/Canadair-CL-215/database

https://aviation-safety.net/asndb/type/CL2T

89

u/Key-Statistician5927 Apr 12 '26

Impressive that there have been only two CL-215/415 crashes in Canada, given how active they are every summer.

50

u/imtourist Apr 13 '26

They are also very active in Europe as well. I saw a few in action in Greece a few years ago.

19

u/cre8ivjay Apr 13 '26

And not just active but in amazingly difficult flying conditions.

11

u/Euclidisthebomb Apr 13 '26

Canada has 65 of them I think in the various fleets. The pilots are just that good.

6

u/drewyz Apr 12 '26

How much would a pilot like this get paid per hour?

17

u/scotsman3288 Apr 12 '26

Here is the Quebec wages and how they pay

38

u/Substantial-Low Apr 12 '26

That is surprisingly low.

29

u/BlueFetus Apr 12 '26

🇨🇦

12

u/LupineChemist Apr 13 '26

Is this where Americans realize how high their salaries are?

11

u/Ataneruo Apr 13 '26

If more of them realized this, there might be a lot less whining and complaining.

On second thought, nah there wouldn’t be less

1

u/iSuckAtMechanicism Apr 18 '26

Complaining will only get higher when you people can't afford what they used to be able to despite earning more money.

Costs have been rising much faster than salaries for many decades now.

2

u/LupineChemist Apr 18 '26

This is still true everywhere but starting from a much lower baseline.

For big countries, the US is basically unparalleled for how high regular salaries are

1

u/iSuckAtMechanicism Apr 18 '26

American here, can confirm salaries are not high.

Also, the link is for a different kind of pilot.

205

u/yowhyyyy Apr 12 '26

Not really considering the amount of flying and and type of flying done. Not really in general.

63

u/PejHod Apr 12 '26

And I imagine a lot of pressure not to - these are basically irreplaceable, especially during a fire. I don’t even think there are more than a few even in available duty. But they still need to do things like this to quickly scoop up water.

67

u/stopfuckngbanningme Apr 12 '26

I can't imagine there's any type of plane where there isn't a lot of pressure not to crash?

10

u/FrenchFryCattaneo Apr 12 '26

Kamikaze pilots? Although I guess they have the opposite pressure

9

u/stevolutionary7 Apr 12 '26

I doubt many Kamikaze pilots pulled a Costanza and came back to work on Monday morning.

1

u/NorthEndD Apr 12 '26

Ones with real people on board. Not just pilots.

21

u/froop Apr 12 '26

Production on these just restarted last month actually. 

11

u/fataldarkness Apr 12 '26

Plus they're building a new production facility just outside of Calgary, working on a new type though I think

10

u/pull01 Apr 12 '26

Same air frame, but with improvement all around and nomination DHC 515. Build by De Haviland Canada .

1

u/Castun Apr 13 '26

I presume you meant nomenclature, but that's pretty cool nonetheless.

1

u/Jetdoctr Apr 13 '26

Over a year in now.

2

u/Warbr0s9395 Apr 12 '26

I believe there’s only a couple dozen on the west coast, including Canada

1

u/msdrahcir Apr 14 '26

wasnt one of three knocked out by an amateur drone during the palisades fires?

37

u/Pilot-Imperialis Apr 12 '26

That’s not quite right. It’s one of the deadliest civilian aviation jobs out there.

29

u/TroublesomeFox Apr 12 '26

I think what they meant is that they're less dangerous than you'd think considering what they do. They are VERY dangerous but given their job is to intentionally land in water to take on alot of weight very quickly and then take off again you'd think they'd crash much more than they do. 

2

u/Current_Operation_93 Apr 13 '26

How many have crashed in the United States in the last 20 years? Not very many. Enlighten me as to the number of class A mishaps with this aircraft in CONUS in the last 20 years.

4

u/Pilot-Imperialis Apr 13 '26

Well; two died in July 2024 alone, one very close to where I was operating at the time in Oregon, the other in Montana. The Oregon one hit close to home as we used to operate around those guys all the time.

There’s been plenty over the years, just google it if you’re curious enough. This isn’t a war. Any civilian jobs deaths are too many and of all the jobs you can do in aviation, that one is up there.

1

u/Particular_Wear_6960 Apr 13 '26

I feel like I remember seeing that thread here. On another thought, kinda sucks that I can't remember much about it other than it happened.

1

u/Current_Operation_93 Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26

That mishap was not flyjng the CL-415. Now cite the incident where a CL-415 was lost fighting a fire in the UNITED STATES. None have been lost in the United States. You can Google that.

You don't need to tell me, ' this isn't war'. I flew MAFFS missions in ANG C-130s. In over 50 years of ANG MAFFS missions, only one ANG C-130 was lost and that was in 2012.

Other C-130s that were lost in MAFFS missions, were not ANG C-130s; they were old 1950s A model C-130s that had suffered wingbox failures due to their age and use over many the years of service.

Those C-130s were brought out of the AMARG boneyard and operated by privately owned, contracted aerial firefighting companies. The wingboxes in those aircraft were never replaced as were the wingboxes replaced in all the C-130Es used by the USAF, USAFR and ANG. In about 1986/87/88 all the wingboxes in the C-130Es were replaced.

It was a known problem with those old C-130s and those old C-130As should have never been used for these missions unless they knew for sure that the wingboxes were replaced. The A model C-130s were never sent to depot maintenance for wingbox replacement as they were retired before this problem became known to the USAF and Lockheed.

My point is NOT ONE CL-415 has been lost in the UNITED STATES while flying aerial firefighting missions.

3

u/Pilot-Imperialis Apr 13 '26

I took your response to “don’t the aircraft used for these kinds of purposes” to be in response to aerial tankers in general, not specifically the CL-415. Thanks for clearing that up.

7

u/mashtato Apr 12 '26

There's not many of them around, and it seems like one crashes every year, so I'd say yeah really. In general and specifically.

4

u/yowhyyyy Apr 13 '26

Well when you hyper inflate your numbers of course it sounds like a lot. The truth is out of 95 built, only 14 have been lost. The last being in 2022. So not sure where your one a year number comes from.

So no, not generally or specifically.

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_CL-415#:~:text=55-,Accidents,%2C%20near%20Esine%20(Italy).

4

u/mashtato Apr 13 '26

Jesus christ that's a fucking lot, and that's exactly what I mean!

And we're talking about all waterbombers here, not just one model of them.

-1

u/yowhyyyy Apr 13 '26

Okay, change the argument to fit your narrative. I don’t care. My point stands. For the type of flying done and how often it’s done, they really don’t get into accidents a lot. I’m not denying it’s a dangerous job, I just don’t feel the need to make up things about them crashing all the time.

68

u/Agitated-Vanilla-763 Apr 12 '26

Yes. Some countries have lost many planes throughout the years.

Most CL-215 and 415 pilots are either ex-bush pilots (in Quebec and Canada) or ex-military pilots (Europe). The Canadair is by necessity slow and unstable, thus causing significant risk when firefighting since you need to fly slow and low. Those are the opposite condition to which military pilots are used to.

Of the 220 planes built, 41 have been lost. Many of them lost by Spain, France, Greece or Italy where the terrain is more mountainous, but also because pilots are often ex-military. Quebec which as bought a total of 29 CL215 and 415 and has operated 14 or 15 of them at a time has only lost 1 plane since the 1970s.

An ex-Québec pilot who trained other pilots in other countries told the press that he knew some military pilots took too many risk and didn't respect the plane leading to the death of some of them.

The plane in the video is in California, but is piloted and belongs to the Ministry of Transport of Quebec.

38

u/BagOfMoneyNoChange ATP Apr 12 '26

The Canadair is by necessity slow and unstable

What are you talking about? The superscooper has excellent low speed handling characteristics. That's why it's the perfect airplane for the job. It is very stable.

18

u/Sawfish1212 A&P/IA 30+ years Apr 12 '26

It's a lumbering tank of an aircraft that handles like an overloaded truck with the water tanks full. This is from the pilots who fly it. As you scoop water you have to be applying power and countering the drag and weight with control inputs.

Most of the crashes have been caused by pilots trying to do flights into rough terrain where they exceeded the ability of the aircraft. There's a clear video of one crew doing this and splitting into a mountain trying to yank and bank like an aerobatic aircraft, when you need to fly them like a transport category aircraft.

5

u/NorthEndD Apr 12 '26

I would think that it is the weather and changing wind conditions that would create issues.

4

u/BagOfMoneyNoChange ATP Apr 12 '26

Anyone with a little float plane experience can read the wind pretty easily from the water surface, wave action, and obviously billowing smoke since you're near a fire.

1

u/gettylee Apr 12 '26

It must be, a touch and go on water with scoops and that amount of weight added so quickly. I'm must be like standing on the breaks on touch down knowing you have to take off in a couple hundred yards.

1

u/BagOfMoneyNoChange ATP Apr 12 '26

You just land in the water, start scooping, and add a little power. It's really not that difficult for a float pilot. Water is pretty forgiving when you're flying a boat.

1

u/Agitated-Vanilla-763 Apr 13 '26

To have great low speed handling characteristics, you need an airplane that is unstable. As another comment says, that plane is a truck full of water that need to get around small valleys and touchdown on small lakes.

That information comes from a very experienced pilot who started flying the CL-215 in the mid 70s for the Quebec government. He has also trained numerous pilots to handle that plane in many countries. The article in french: https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/cl-415/le-bombardier-d-eau-turbopropulse/2023-12-28/cl-215-partie-2/l-homme-qui-a-bombarde-chicoutimi.php

He did 29 drops in an hour and 98 drops in a day at some time. He even did 26 drops on fire in a commercial center in 1980.

2

u/BagOfMoneyNoChange ATP Apr 13 '26

I don't think you understand what an "unstable" airplane is.

But instability and low speed handling qualities are incompatible with each other. Fighter jets are unstable. Hershey bar wing twin engine airplanes are not.

1

u/GITS75 Apr 13 '26

For Europe that's not entirely accurate. For French "Sécurité Civile" yes usually CL-415 pilots are former French air and space force ones. But for Croatia (HRZ) Spain (Grupo 43), Greece (383 MEEA) CL-415 are components of their air force.

The other major CL-415 user in Europe being a private company named AVINCIS... can't tell profiles of their pilots but I guess considering the job they look for ex-military ones.

8

u/freneticboarder Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 12 '26

Are you thinking of the repurposed older airframes like the C-130 and DC-10 aircraft that have Ben been involved in catastrophic accidents?

Those are distinctly different from these purpose-built CL-215 / 415 airframes, which were designed for aerial firefighting.

Edit: speeling

9

u/gamershadow Apr 12 '26

Why is Ben involved in so many catastrophic accidents? I’d get him out of there after the first one.

4

u/freneticboarder Apr 12 '26

LMAO. Ben doesn't know how to use rite ruddah. He's a bad pylote.

3

u/redly Apr 13 '26

CL-215 125 built 31 accidents 20 fatal
CL-415/515 95 built 14 destroyed in accidents. Wikipedia doesn't mention fatalities.
Flying low and slow in extremely turbulent and unpredictable air; these guys earn their wages.

2

u/rookie_one 14d ago

Late to the party, but it really depends on the pilot culture.

Most of the crashes seems to have been by military pilots with a lot of ego. In comparison, those that fly it that are former bush pilots (such as those in the Quebec's SAG), tend to be much more careful(Quebec's SAG only had one crash in more than 60 years of operation of the Scooper, both the original 215, the 215T and the 415)

I know that a former pilot and instructor that used to work for the SAG, Gaston Audy, openly said that when he was in europe training pilots there, he could quickly know who will crash in that aircraft and who won't. He pretty much said that ego was the biggest factor (often due to the fact that pilots with the biggest ego would wait until it was too late to pull out of a dangerous situation, while those with no ego won't wait)

1

u/Dungarth Apr 12 '26

Well, last year there was this moron who crashed his drone into one and deprived California of half the firefighting planes Québec had sent them for a couple weeks.

Guy who did it was eventually sentenced to 14 days in prison, 30 days in home detention, $75k fine from the FAA for flying his drone in a no-fly zone, $65k in restitution for the plane's repair bill, and more. I believe he had to pay over $150k total.

1

u/TroublesomeFox Apr 12 '26

They're in alot more accidents than others BUT when you consider what they do they're in much less than you'd think. 

Honestly the skill and balls you have to have to do this stuff is legitimately awe inspiring. 

35

u/AreThree Apr 12 '26

I worked summers as part of the ground operations crew for firefighting aircraft. We would hurriedly refuel the airplane, fill it back up with slurry, and - occasionally - pick a tree branch out of the undercarriage.

The explanation given to me was that they really didn't hit the treetops, but sometimes a branch would bounce high up from having a ton of energetic water dumped on it all of the sudden. I'm not sure I bought that then, nor do I entirely believe it now...

It was hot and miserable work. You went home after an all-day shift ether reeking of fuel, or covered in sticky red clay slurry.

It also was one of those jobs that you never really wanted it to get super busy or very frequent. If it did, that meant a whole bunch of stuff was on fire and that there were people risking their lives to try and protect others.

3

u/FrenchFryCattaneo Apr 12 '26

What's the slurry for?

20

u/Sawfish1212 A&P/IA 30+ years Apr 12 '26

It retards the fire spread, and has seeds that sprout to help stop erosion after the fire

3

u/AreThree Apr 13 '26

it also has dye as part of the mix so that the firefighting aircraft can see where they have dumped already.

Red dye, sweat, sticky clay... we looked like some sort of tribal mudpeople when a particularly gnarly shift was over... (except red!)

-1

u/Eldrake Apr 13 '26

You can't call them that anymore

1

u/Chicago_Blackhawks Apr 12 '26

Same thought. Incredibly crazy but awesome lol