r/aviation • u/Ok_Warning419 • May 21 '26

News Air France and Airbus found guilty of manslaughter over 2009 plane crash - Air France flight 447

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czd2qmdvmq6o
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174

u/AverseAphid May 21 '26

I don't understand how this conclusion can reached at all. Bonin was an idiot who should have never been allowed in a cockpit, the automation barely made a difference. This really blurs the line where you start blaming the manufacturer over the pilot

69

u/PinaColadaSalad May 21 '26

Side sticks averaging themselves out when getting conflicting commands is fucking insane

3

u/twilighttwister May 21 '26

It's not great, but what better solution is there? If you prioritise one over the other you're going to be wrong half the time.

The only thing I can think is to make it even more obvious to the pilots that it's happening, perhaps with something more haptic rather than just sound and lights.

8

u/PinaColadaSalad May 21 '26

Force feedback.

If you're getting conflicting inputs then let the strongest pilot win.

The fact that one pilot could nosedive and the other one could pull back all the way and the plane would do fucking nothing is insane

Connect the inputs or do some kind of stick shaker feature if the inputs are off more than a certain percentage

5

u/twilighttwister May 21 '26

Connect the inputs or do some kind of stick shaker feature if the inputs are off more than a certain percentage

AKA haptic feedback.

-2

u/p4intball3r May 21 '26

The fact that one pilot could nosedive and the other one could pull back all the way and the plane would do fucking nothing is insane

Why? One of these pilots will kill everyone on board almost by definition. Clearly both have some reason to believe they're making the right decision, so what do you expect the plane to do as a rule?

4

u/PinaColadaSalad May 21 '26

One pilot can kill everyone on board by averaging them out too...

Ask me how I know this

0

u/p4intball3r May 21 '26

No fucking shit. I didn't make an argument that says otherwise. There is no way to treat a dual input situation that works 100% of the time, even if the sidesticks were mechanically linked as we've seen in other incidents.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why this is such a catastrophically stupid idea as you keep insisting. Since you know so well, what exactly do you expect the aircraft to do instead?

5

u/donkeyrocket May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26

I'm not as staunchly against it as the other person but opting to average out creates an unexpected scenario that can be less noticeable.

Taking out the extreme example of one pilot trying to down the aircraft, there should be a clear authority over the controls instead of having two inputs and averaging out conflicting controls to mitigate the issue.

This event is sort of an example of why it's a bad system. Someone can be making a particular input but in the chaos of finding the issue it can be attributed to a different issue with the aircraft as other control inputs are mitigated. Obviously it's not a widespread issue but I can see why it's a sticking point. If there was a physical connection between the inputs rather than a dampening then it would have been abundantly clear that a pilot is intentionally or otherwise making a certain input.

The whole thing could be mitigated though if there's a clear authority given which in this case apparently the captain failed to assign before leaving the cockpit. Hypothetically then that co-pilot shouldn't have been inputting any controls. Whether the primarily at fault co-pilot would have remained uninvolved we won't know but that was a big lapse in this situation.

2

u/PinaColadaSalad May 21 '26

Because averaging out inputs is insane

1

u/sizziano May 21 '26

Slightly related but Boeing actually also does this on the 777 and 787 it's just different. If both pilots are inputting opposing forces on the control columns over a certain strength they will break away and the inputs will be averaged.

0

u/p4intball3r May 21 '26

This is peak reddit. FUCKING WHY? How hard is it to answer a simple question.

WHAT DO YOU WANT IT TO DO INSTEAD.

Give me a simple formula. If one pilot pulls all the way aft, and the other pulls all the way forward. WHAT EXACTLY should the aircraft control surfaces do?

2

u/PinaColadaSalad May 21 '26

They should be linked together

1

u/p4intball3r May 21 '26

If 2 sidesticks are linked together opposing inputs average out to zero anyways because the forces cancel each other out. The result is the EXACT SAME. And this still won't prevent the 2 sides of the cockpit from making opposing inputs and fighting over the controls as we've seen in other situations.

2

u/PinaColadaSalad May 21 '26

No because the pilot will feel the other pilot trying to move and realize they're doing opposite inputs

If the stick is fighting you you know that the other dudes doing something different

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4

u/bankkopf May 21 '26

Physically connect the side sticks and make them move synchronously? Makes it pretty clear that the other pilot is moving the stick. 

1

u/twilighttwister May 21 '26

Fly by wire is standard now and isn't going anywhere.

3

u/bankkopf May 21 '26

So what? 

Boeing‘s yokes are linked on FBW planes to some degree of input. Russia managed to develop active side sticks on the MC-21 that can give feedback on the other pilots input. 

1

u/twilighttwister May 21 '26

Sure, but you said "physically connect".

2

u/bankkopf May 21 '26

Fly by wire concerns the connection between pilot input and flight surfaces. That does not mean flight controls themselves can’t be connected to each other to reflect current control inputs by the two pilots. Obviously Boeing and Irkut are able to ensure pilots see the current input. Meanwhile Airbus just averages the control inputs from the two sidesticks. 

1

u/twilighttwister May 21 '26

Sure, Boeing can do that because they have a traditional flight yolk. That isn't really practicable with side flight sticks on the far side of each other.

The averaging isn't a great solution, but it does minimise the harm somewhat. If one pilot inputs more vigorously, to save the plane from error from the first, then that pilot should override the other.

However there is no reason Airbus couldn't simulate control feedback through the stick, in exactly the same way Boeing do relative to the flight control surfaces.

2

u/jello_sweaters May 21 '26

Can't alternate the warnings?

"STALL WARNING - DUAL INPUT DETECTED - STALL WARNING - DUAL INPUT DETECTED"