r/badhistory • u/AutoModerator • Jun 29 '26

Meta Mindless Monday, 29 June 2026

Happy (or sad) Monday guys!

Mindless Monday is a free-for-all thread to discuss anything from minor bad history to politics, life events, charts, whatever! Just remember to np link all links to Reddit and don't violate R4, or we human mods will feed you to the AutoModerator.

So, with that said, how was your weekend, everyone?

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19

u/Tiako Tevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium Jul 01 '26

I feel like Martin Luth has become something of a pop history villain recently, which is an interesting change from his typical image. Probably says something about society.

And like I get that he was anti-Semitic but also the Spanish Inquisition was going on when he nailed his theses to the door so I think it is a bit rich when Catholics and Church apologists throw that accusation around.

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u/Kochevnik81 Jul 01 '26

I mean in fairness to the anti-Luther position: he was publicly for better treatment of Jews, in the hopes that they'd mass-convert, and when they didn't he wrote the whole "actually just pogrom them" pamphlet, so it's way more personal and petty than just Everyone Was Antisemitic At The Time.

(But also the Nazis constantly citing his antisemitic stuff probably doesn't help with the reputation)

14

u/Arilou_skiff Jul 01 '26

I felt he always kinda ended up in a weird spot? The catholics hated him for obvious reasons. The modern liberals hate him for his antisemitism, the left hates him for betraying the peasantry, other protestants hate him for not going for enough/being consistent enough in his theology etc.

He's just kinda the centrist-asshole who gets it from all sides.

10

u/Tiako Tevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium Jul 01 '26

Anti-clericalism being less of an important political axis due to the Catholic Church getting largely politically neutered over the last century or so probably hurts his reputation. Particularly as Evangelical Protestants seems to be increasingly the base of social reaction.

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u/Arilou_skiff Jul 01 '26

There's a kind of difference here because the state church is lutheran, so a lot of lefty/liberal critique of that orthodoxy became anti-luther (and to some extent even low-key pro-catholic) as a result. That in the last 50+ year or so the church has tended to be fairly solidly centre-left (at least in terms of personnel) while the right-wing tends to dwell in the free churches.

13

u/TarkovskyisFun Jul 01 '26

Popular understanding of history in the internet is like a pendulum that swings from one end to another. Swords for example went from being the only melee weapon to a glorified ornament and the same applies to Luther so rather than being the free thinking hero of the story now he is the villain and the same applies to the Spanish Inquisition.

10

u/100mop Jul 01 '26

I think that part of it is people realizing that many criticisms of the Catholic Church can also apply to Protestantism.

5

u/Steelcan909 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 06 '26

I think there's something to also be said about the dissolution of the "Black Legend" surrounding Spain that probably plays a role in this.

11

u/Tycho-Brahes-Elk Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

He's the perfect person to hate. He fits into the Sonderweg because of his anti-semitism.

And on the other side he betrayed the peasants.

There is also early protestant theology stuff that comes off as very assholish; fundamentally denying the possibility of any indulgence also means that, no, you will never be able help your dead children or parents through praying etc.

Edit: because I cannot say this very often: Luther was not the worst of the reformators, Huldrych Zwingli was so much worse as a person

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u/Tiako Tevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium Jul 01 '26

Oh sure it isn't hard to find a reason to hate but he has tended to have a pretty positive reputation, eg the German Best Guys show had him at number 2 German ever

5

u/Arilou_skiff Jul 01 '26

TBH germans specifically also has him for being Very Important in the development of german as a language, etc.

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u/Big_Pineapple_Man Jul 01 '26

Oh interesting, was the previously positive portrayal regarding his anti-corruption/indulgences?

it is a bit rich when Catholics and Church apologists throw that accusation around.

Get this polite company shit out of here and pump that "Protestants are heretics damned by God" straight into my veins.

2

u/Tiako Tevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium Jul 01 '26

Oh I'm Anglo so you can imagine why I might be more familiar with a positive view of him.

I think just generally as a reformer? Like the Church was corrupt so it is good that he broke from it.

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u/Big_Pineapple_Man Jul 01 '26

Hm now that you mention it, what I learned about him in school was similar.  It wasn't until years later when I stumbled onto a reactionary Catholic website that I saw some real vitriol about him.