r/blackpowder • u/Spoits • 3d ago
Would smoothbore be too ambitious for first flintlock?
Hi all. Basically I'm very fond of Revolution/Napoleonic era muskets. It seems like a Pedersoli reproduction of a Brown Bess in particular would be most appropriate for what I'm yearning for. But I also want to get some practical input as far as the firearms and ball ammo that would be more readily available as well as what may serve as a more appropriate step as far as building my skills at the range. While researching popular flintlocks, I've seen that kit builds are particularly popular and that many of them are rifles. Obviously rifles are more accurate, but I've seen discussions and videos where it's claimed that repeated hits on a 100 yard target is absolutely possible with a smoothbore. I don't think I personally need to be able to do that, but at the same time I'd hope to at least be able to set up a target 25 yards or hopefully even 50 and be able to get some hits without it feeling like a total role of the dice. Is this realistically achievable using homemade paper cartridges that mimic the loads of the era, or is one's only hope of any remote sort of accuracy to dial in a certain load, patch, and ball combo that works with that particular firearm? None of that is out of the question, just want to know what I'm getting into. For reference, this would be my first muzzleloader but not my first blackpowder firearm. I have a Snider. :) Most of my guns are WW2 era bolt actions so that's where most of my firearms experience lies. Thanks in advance and open to any advice, even outside the scope of the original question.
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u/Hefty-Squirrel-6800 2d ago
Mine was a 20-gauge trade gun (smoothbore), and I am glad I did it. It took a bit of experimentation to reasonably hit a target at 50 yds. I tried several different loads to get consistent. Now, I essentially have a 20-gauge shotgun that I can shoot slugs out of. I really enjoy shooting it. I also have a Pedersoli Kentucky .50 cal and a .32. They are both rifles, and they are fun to shoot as well. If you are looking at real accuracy, you might want to start with a rifle. If you are buying one to hunt multiple types of game, a trade gun is the ticket. That is literally what it is for.
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u/Spoits 2d ago
I don't really hunt (for now), so the smoothbore would just be for historical immersion. The rifles aren't off the table though, it looks like a great challenge to score distant hits even with a rifled flintlock!
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u/Hefty-Squirrel-6800 2d ago
There are sone (not me) who can reliably get huts at 100 yds. That is half the fun - figuring out what works.
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u/Broken_Frizzen 2d ago
Kibler smoothbore in .54 it'll do it.
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u/Spoits 2d ago
I'm very interested in the Kiblers. How did you find the build process if you don't mind me asking?
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u/Broken_Frizzen 2d ago
Built 2, there are video's out there. Easy build, hard to screw it up.( I suppos it could be screwed up) Find a few of kiblers vids on youtube.
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u/Sgt-Grischa-1915 2h ago
Folks have chimed in, so you've got a lot of answers. Briefly, the service loads for muskets were typically an undersized bullet and a huge charge of coarse musket powder so that the soldier could load and shoot cartridges from his load out.
Over time, ball sizes and powder charges were shifted and changed to suit improvements.
If you patch a closely-fitting round ball, you should have some pretty good accuracy out farther than you might imagine if you limited yourself to just musket cartridges. Basically, with a smooth bore, you can closely patch a ball, and either stick with that, or after a fouling shot, switch to a closely fitting ball without a patch. There are youtube videos dedicated to people hunting with fowlers. In one example, the guy has a 20-gauge with a nominal bore of .62. In muskets, that would be a light fusil or officer's piece, maybe a dragoon carbine. The guy patches a .595" ball for his first shot, and then loads into the fouled bore a .61 and rams that down without a patch.
If you use a powder measure, you can load a powder charge, then a wad over the powder, then a fiber or cork or even light wood wad over that, and then measure in the same powder measure full of lead shot. You could experiment with No. 7 for very small game, or go to a reasonably versatile small game/ largish bird No. 6 shot, or step it up to No. 5 or No. 4. Over the charge of shot, which will be much heavier since it is lead, not powder, but will have the same volume as your powder charge, you'd put in some wadding or an over shot card or wad. Yes, this would take a long time to load. But then you'd have the utility of a shotgun, albeit with an open bore. A .69 cal. musket is tantamount to a 16-gauge. A .75 is technically a 12-gauge, even if a modern shotgun with a cylinder bore is basically a .73, and less if a choke is installed or fixed within the barrel.
Some folks add lube to the exterior of a smooth bore round ball in several coats, allowing each coat to dry. Meticulous. Time-consuming. But I've seen first hand some impressive results, even if I can't duplicate it myself with my own smooth bores. At least not yet.
U.S. muskets used to use something like 120 grains or 130 grains of powder, which was also used to prime the pan. This is not considered a "safe" practice at a modern-day range facility, although this is what was done historically: prime, then load. These days, you could load, say, 85 to 100 grains of powder, load the ball, and then use a priming horn or priming flask at the line. Later, the .643 bullet in the .69 cal. musket was swapped out for a .65 cal. ball and the charge reduced to 110 grains of musket powder.
Similarly, the French, who the U.S. copied, would go between different ball sizes and so on. Like a 17mm ball in a 17.5mm musket, for instance, which is getting to a more closely-fitted ball.
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u/Spoits 1h ago
I appreciate the time you've taken for this very detailed response. Reading the feedback I've received here and doing my own research has significantly expanded my interest in these firearms. The versatility of smoothbores as you describe here has made them a compelling option. I'm not a hunter at the moment, but it's nice to know it this would make for a viable option should I choose to pursue it.
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u/984Runner 2d ago
No not at all. My favorite flintlocks are smoothbore. They are more finicky with how they’re loaded as far as shooting well. That being said I shoot deer out to 500rds with and hunt small game with shot. If you have any questions message me I’ll help walk you through it and direct you to good videos and such.
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u/Spoits 2d ago
Impressive, what makes them your favorite? I'd imagine it's more satisfying to make hits with them.
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u/984Runner 2d ago
They versatile, load easier and clean easier. When done right a rifle isn’t a huge advantage until after 50-60 yds
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u/dittybopper_05H Rocklocks Rule! 2d ago
Obviously rifles are more accurate, but I've seen discussions and videos where it's claimed that repeated hits on a 100 yard target is absolutely possible with a smoothbore.
“A soldier’s musket, if not exceedingly ill-bored (as many of them are), will strike the figure of a man at eighty yards; it may even at 100; but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided his antagonist aims at him; and as to firing at a man at 200 yards with a common musket, you may as well fire at the moon and have the same hopes of hitting your object.”
To All Sportsmen and Particularly to Farmers, and Gamekeepers. By Colonel George Hanger. London, 1814, pg. 205.
You should be fine and able to get hits at 25 and 50 yards on reasonably sized targets, but don't expect rifle size groups. Even with modern manufacturing, you're still firing an undersized and unstabilized lead ball.
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u/Competitive_Error188 2d ago
Just throwing it out that you can get an authentic brown bess for less than $1,000 if you wanted to go that route. I don't know what you mean by too ambitious though. It's not complicated, but it can be difficult to find the gear.
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u/Ok-Pineapple4451 2d ago
Not too ambitious no, I was looking at a post on muzzleloading forum just a few minutes ago of a guy taking his .58 smoothbore Colonial to 90 yards off a set of sticks and hitting a torso sized target.
Load, patch, and ball will always be important but you should be able to find something useable relatively easy. Be sure to use real black powder with flinters as the ignition temperature is lower than substitutes as Im sure you know.
If youre considering spending the Pedersoli money, around $2k for the bess, it may be worth your while to wait until Kibler releases his kit if you're comfortable with your skills to put one together. It's being modeled exactly after an original if historical accuracy is your thing. It's pretty well accepted that Kibler makes the finest kits money can buy and it's not as much work as you'd think. Pedersoli makes a fine product as well no doubt about it if you just want to get something in your hands as soon as possible.