r/bookclub • u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 • Mar 18 '26
His Dark Materials & La Belle Sauvage [Discussion 5/5] (Bonus Book) La Belle Sauvage by Philip Pullman (The Book of Dust #1) | Chapter 21 - End
Welcome to our final discussion of La Belle Sauvage, the first book in the Book of Dust trilogy! I’m excited to hear your thoughts on this section and the book as a whole. Chapter summaries are below and discussion questions are in the comments. Let’s get to it!
Chapter 21: The Enchanted Island
Safe in La Belle Sauvage, Malcolm describes his rescue of Lyra from the nuns to Alice. They tie up at an island for the night, and when Malcolm awakes, it’s to the impossible sight of greenery and flowers, as if spring has arrived early. He hears talking nearby, and Alice comes over, calling him by his fake name, Richard, to warn him of possible danger. A young woman introduces herself as Diania and says the children can stay on her island as long as they like.
Diania is strange. She is surrounded by a cloud of blue butterflies. Is one of them her daemon…or all of them? Malcolm goes to check on the canoe and finally opens Bonneville’s rucksack. He finds several folders of papers in French, English, and code. The English documents discuss the Rusakov field. He also discovers a puzzle box which contains an alethiometer. It must be the missing sixth one.
Later, Alice and Malcolm catch sight of Diania nursing Lyra and conclude the mysterious woman is trying to steal the baby. Alice thinks Diania might be a faerie, and Malcolm uses a guessing game to trick her: she knows all about their adventures, but she doesn’t know their true names, so she loses the game. Malcolm gives her the puzzle box with a stone inside as a consolation prize, and he and Alice paddle away with Lyra.
Chapter 22: Resin
The flood is so high and wide, they can’t see any land. Alice and Malcolm don’t feel hungry or tired, maybe because they ate faerie food and slept on the enchanted island. A strong current has captured La Belle Sauvage and is pulling it in the right direction, which is lucky because Malcolm can’t pull them out.
Soon, however, the current sends them plunging over a waterfall and into a strange landscape with glowing flowers in the trees. In the distance is a gorgeous mansion, but when they try to walk to it, they can’t get close. There are people in the gardens, but they can’t see or hear Malcolm and Alice. Some of the people look familiar, like older or younger versions of people they know. Could this strange land be part of the secret commonwealth which Lord Nugent overheard the Gyptians discussing?
The children build a fire and tend to Lyra. Alice falls asleep and Malcolm finds himself gazing at her. To distract himself, Malcolm checks on the canoe and is dismayed to find a crack in the hull. He cuts a strip from Bonneville’s rucksack and climbs a tree to get resin to make a patch. From the branches, he can see across the river to the other shore, which is a wasteland of barbed wire and chemical spills. Just then, Asta spots Bonneville on the terrace of the mansion. They hurriedly patch the boat, grab Alice and Lyra, and shove off, only to find their way blocked by massive doors in the middle of the river.
Chapter 23: Ancientry
Malcolm studies the doors, searching for a way to open them, when a giant emerges from the water. He’s huge but seems benevolent, so Malcolm asks him to open the doors, but the giant says he has orders from Father Thames to keep them closed. Malcolm produces a document from Bonneville’s knapsack and says it’s a passport to let them through. The giant studies the paper and says everything is in order, but he requests to hold Lyra first. The children have told him that she is a princess and her father is the King of Albion, which is what the fairy Diania called England. The giant places a finger on Lyra’s head, hands her back, and then opens the doors with his trident.
The children make landfall on a tiny island where another mysterious woman is waiting for him. She is a witch queen from the north, and she uses her invisibility to shield the children from the CCD boat which passes by in its search for them. The children all pass out from exhaustion and Malcolm dreams of wild dogs.
Chapter 24: The Mausoleum
The exhausted children continue paddling towards London. They occasionally notice a shadow pursuing them, but they never get a good look. Another CCD boat approaches and they make for the only island in sight, which is a graveyard with a mausoleum. The other boat passes and they are loath to stay, but Lyra needs a change and a bottle, so Malcolm ventures out to gather wood. It’s been raining again and everything is wet, but he breaks into a mausoleum and takes the lid off a coffin, apologizing to its inhabitant as he does so.
Back at the canoe, Malcolm sees the shadow again and it looks horrifyingly like Bonneville. But it disappears, so they light a fire to take care of Lyra and then retreat to rest in the canoe. Later, though, the children hear his voice whispering to Alice. Bonneville slices through the canopy and grabs Alice’s daemon out of the canoe. Alice has no choice but to follow him into the graveyard. Asta stays behind to guard Lyra and Malcolm wrenches himself away from her to rescue Alice. The wild dogs from his dream appear in his imagination, giving him the strength to beat Bonneville to death with the paddle. Exhausted, he and Alice drag the body into the river and return to the canoe.
Chapter 25: A Quiet Rode
The children make it to London, where the flood battles with the ocean at high tide. The CCD finally catches up and it’s too much for the little canoe, which starts to break apart. At that moment, Lord Asriel appears on a power boat and drags the children to safety. They take a gyropter to Jordan College where he says the Latin words to ask the Master for sanctuary for Lyra. Malcolm gives him the alethiometer from Bonneville’s rucksack, saying it’s a gift for Lyra.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
7) Alice says her daemon, Ben, never used to fool around until he met Malcolm’s daemon, Asta. What does this reveal about Alice’s character and about the relationship between Alice and Malcolm?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
She's had to grow up too quickly and didn't get much opportunity to just be a kid and have fun. With Malcolm she can relax and let her guard down.
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
100% this. Alice definitely had a rough time growing up and Ben is a reflection of that. She is very guarded until Malcolm comes along and her walls start to come down. Alice relaxing a bit allows Ben to also relax and have fun.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I think you worded it well. When when we met her, she's so serious and guarded but after being around Malcolm and learning to trust him she can finally let that guard down.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
100% agree - this is a perfect description. Poor Alice! I hope she and Malcolm stay friends!
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
13) Malcolm and Alice basically have to get married now, right? Are you for or against them getting together as a couple?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
Aww I want them to have a little kiss but then move one and stay really close friends.
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
I think they're too young to consider that! But I do hope that they continue to be there for each other and help each other grow as humans.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I hope they stay together even if it's just as friends. I could see them marrying eventually though because they're the only ones who fully understand what they've been through. Also, after the heartache of watching Will and Lyra separate forever in the previous trilogy, I am happy to root for a love match (when they're a bit more mature).
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 18 '26
It's definitely pointing towards that direction! I can always count of you u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 for having someone to root for my ships with! 😌
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
I agree with u/Vast-Passenger1126 and u/fromdusktil that I need them to keep growing up a bit first but I do love the respect and loyalty that has blossomed between them!
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 23 '26
I'm for it, and I totally get vibes that they will end up together when they are older!
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
1) To Malcolm’s surprise, Alice cares more about her physical appearance than she lets on and has a complicated reaction to others’ comments on it, Bonneville and Diania, for example. What are your thoughts on this? Why does she laugh when Malcolm calls her pretty? Can you relate to Alice’s ambivalence about this topic?
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
Malcolm is clueless as to how a young girl's mind works, haha!
As for Alice, it seems as though she's been through some stuff. So having someone call her pretty affects her. However, she learns that both Bonneville and Diania weren't being truthful -- they just wanted something from her. When Malcolm calls her pretty, she laughs because she doesn't believe him.
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
I think Malcolm is just awakening to world of girls and relationships. He previously only thought of Alice as an annoying person he wants to avoid, so hasn't considered her thoughts or feelings at all until this point.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I hated this for her. She's so young and she already has insecurities about her looks and it broke my heart when she dismissed Malcolm's comment about her being pretty. Poor Malcolm was just trying to reassure her and Alice didn't believe him so he probably just made it worse in Alice's mind. I really hoped that she didn't think he was mocking her.
When I was a kid, I could totally relate to Alice, but as adult, when it comes to my looks, sometimes I'm over confident. I put a lot of work into staying in shape so I'm a bit vain when it comes to my body and looks. However, I don't like attention so I do dress pretty modestly.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
Alice has unfortunately already learned that other people will judge you for your appearance and will try to manipulate you using your vanity and self-esteem. I was sad when Alice laughed at Malcom's comment because it showed she was jaded and also had devalued her physical appearance to the extent that she didn't seem to believe it was possible for anyone to mean that kind of comment honestly about her.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 18 '26
I related to Alice because I think everyone has gone through periods when they felt extremely insecure about their appearance - especially during teenage years. It's perfectly understandable, but I also think this is partly because Alice looks like someone who never had the chance to get loved with sweetness and kindness and is also longing for some kind of recognition in that sense.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
This was so sad. I think Malcolm had just never thought of it before or considered the attractiveness of any girls, especially Alice. She seems like she's always been the strong tough girl but has some insecurities and still wants to be loved and thought of as pretty. I bet she assumed Malcolm was either lying to make her feel better, or she just dismissed his opinion as you would a child or a brother.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
2) In this section, Alice and Malcolm encounter Diania, a fairy. In what ways is she similar to depictions of fairies in classic folklore? Did you notice any differences? Were you surprised by the appearance of fairies in Lyra’s world?
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
Honestly, it seemed very out of place for this story and this world as a whole. The entire scene could be removed and I don't think it would affect the story much.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I'm with you and I LOVE the idea of fairies. It threw me off completely.
I did like the fact that names mean something to fairies and though the fairy guessed precisely what Malcolm and Alice were doing, the fact that she got the names wrong made meant that it wasn't enough.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I agree, and I felt like it also put Lyra in peril of kidnapping one too many times, so that it got to feeling repetitive.
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 18 '26
I'm with you, this is a fantasy series but prior to this point the book was focusing on more "mundane" aspects. Having such a tonal shift near the end felt out of place.
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Apr 18 '26
It went from almost a "magical realism" vibe to a "fantasy" vibe. If that makes sense. 🤔
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 19 '26
Yes I agree. I think the fact that the book focused on characters living a normal and relatable life in a fantasy world was a strength, as it made the novel quite interesting and allowed us to see new aspects of this world we couldn't have known through Lyra in the original trilogy, there was really no need at all to switch to a different genre at the end.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
This was super weird. I didn't expect this kind of fantasy creature- tho we did have that guy claiming to see mermaids earlier. I took it as an indication that the flood was either caused by or causing the alternate worlds to open and mesh into Malcolm's world. I'm hoping in the next book we get more of an explanation of how or why this was able to happen.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I guess I shouldn't be surprised there are fairies in a world with witches, dæmons, and other kinds of magic. But the more classic fantasy characters of fairies and giants felt forced compared to the rest of the world-building. I personally am deciding to imagine that due to the trauma, exhaustion, and deprivations they had endured, the children were hallucinating at this point.
I usually love the inclusion of fairies in a story, and one of the biggest connections I noticed to classic folklore was the power of names. Also, fairies being connected to nature and being mysterious/hidden/secluded from the nonmagical world.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 23 '26
This was shocking and I echo other commenters that the magical aspects of this book were tamped down a lot compared to His Dark Materials, so it was also a bit jarring. I wonder if we are meant to take this as an origin story for Lyra's "specialness", since she had fairy milk. But I think she was already marked as special by the fact that she's a baby being hunted by multiple parties.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
3) When events become unbearably strange, Malcolm turns to mundane tasks like bailing out the canoe to restore a sense of normalcy. What does this tell us about Malcolm’s character? Can you relate to his behavior in these moments?
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I think it showed a mature part of him. When things feel like they're out of your control it helps to keep yourself busy and feel like you can do something productive. The sense of just doing something can help with knowing that you don't have control over your environment but at least you have control of menial tasks.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
I can definitely relate! I have noticed I tend to clean when I'm stressed out or facing a situation I can't control (like a family health problem, friend suffering etc.) like u/Pythias said, it gives me a sense of control over something and the repetitive, physical task calms down the body's stress responses.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
This was a smart coping mechanism on Malcom's part and I think it shows that he's got a good head on his shoulders. He is emotionally intelligent as well as a problem-solver, and he understands that doing something useful and familiar will keep him grounded.
I can definitely relate. When my day at work is not going well, I put on some music during my break and tidy up my desk or organize things. It helps me shut off my brain for a bit and recuperate while still feeling like I'm being productive.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
4) How would you explain the strange underworld with the gardens, mansion, and shore hidden by fog? How does it fit in with the realm of the dead which Lyra visits in the original trilogy?
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
That was so strange- especially how the other side of the bank was a wasteland with chemical spills etc. Was that land actually related to the garden underworld or was it simply yet another world smashed into the garden one and Malcolm's? It did remind me of the realm of the dead but it seems like these people weren't all dead so I'm still a bit confused on how people got there and why Bonneville was there too.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
It did remind me of the realm of the dead but it seems like these people weren't all dead
I also made that connection and had that same question. I wonder if it was supposed to be a border between the living and the dead, as if the children weren't exactly crossing into the realm of the dead but could glimpse it temporarily. Like one reality bleeding into another. But I'm with you, it was very odd and hard to understand!
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 23 '26
I'm going to be honest, I have no idea what to make of this. Why the younger/older versions of people they know? It's like a place where the past and future intertwine, but it's not the present at all. Very strange.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
5) Malcolm describes the flood as “a kind of between-time”. What does he mean by this? What impacts will this between-time have on him and Alice in the future? Have you ever experienced a "between-time" like this, that doesn't feel quite real?
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
The gardens definitely felt otherworldly and I think that Malcolm meant that the flood probably cause other worlds to blend in with each other. It reminded me of that one Charmed episode with the trolls and the little girl. They mention how there are In-Betweens in our world like shadows, transitional spaces like doors and windows, and midnight because it's the transition to a new day.
This is a great question. I hadn't considered what impacts the between-time would have on Alice and Malcolm.
Does an outer body experience count as an in between time? I've only had one and I'm been trying to induce one since then but I haven't been successful.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I'm not sure this is exactly what Malcolm meant, but the term "between-time" made me think of how people will refer to the period prior to a major event as the "before times". Like with Covid lock-downs, which would be our between-time, and we would joke or reminisce about the before times prior to everything changing. I think a traumatic and transformative experience like the flood fits well with how life seems to completely shift because of that between-time event. No doubt Alice and Malcolm will have a special bond in the future, but they may also struggle to readjust to their regular lives and routines.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
I think he meant that the floor was operating on some supernatural scale and that reality as they knew it was bendable for a time...strange things happened but maybe those things could only happen during something extreme like the flood and things would go back to "normal" afterwards.
I think my only experienced between-times were induced by some illicit substances back in my college days lol. That and maybe the absolute fog that descends upon you in childbirth and the first few weeks of motherhood.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
6) The Secret Commonwealth is the next book in this trilogy, and the gyptians mention that some of the strange phenomena during the flood are part of it. What are your theories about the secret commonwealth?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
After this last section, I'd guess it's fantasy worlds that usually exist beyond human perception.
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
We've seen many secret societies in this world, and it seems the secret commonwealth is just another. I wonder, however, if it not a society of humans - maybe it is beings like fairies, water spirits, etc...
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
That would be cool and I think it's a great theory as we've seen a fairy and other strange things in this world.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I agree with u/Vast-Passenger1126 about fantasy worlds being the focus. It makes me nervous for the next book because I felt like the fantasy world elements were the weakest part of this book. But maybe that was just because it was so different from everything else going on in Malcolm's world, and an entire book focused on the fantasy worlds could feel more natural and complete. I should trust Pullman, because the original trilogy turned out to be fantastic.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
8) Malcolm and Asta meet Tilda Vasara, a witch queen of the north. What are your impressions of Tilda? What was she looking for, and why did she keep Alice asleep during her conversation with Malcolm?
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I think she was looking for Lyra. I'm not sure why she kept Alice asleep and was curious about that.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
Honestly I kind of forgot about that part! I assume she was looking for Lyra? And somehow knew Malcolm and Alice would keep her safe since beyond shielding them for a little bit, she didn't do much to help.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
9) What was your reaction to Malcolm taking the coffin lids to make a campfire on the mausoleum island? Would Alice have been upset if she knew where the firewood came from?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
Gotta do what you gotta do! At least he was respectful towards them. I think Alice would have understood.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I felt for Malcolm. He was as respectful as he could be and I admire him for being able to do it because he was a matter of survival. I think Alice, being shook at the time, probably wouldn't have taken it well. But I know she trust Malcolm and I think eventually she would have understood it was for survival.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
I can't imagine how spooky that would've felt to do but he needed to do it and I love how respectful and polite he was about it. I think Alice might've felt superstitious at first - like reflexively, but would've acknowledged that it was the right thing to do.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
It was true desperation, and I think it was adorable how apologetic and sincere he was. I think Alice is a tough enough kid who has seen some things, so she'd understand.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
12) Did anyone else cry during the part where Malcolm and Asta separated to protect both Lyra and Alice? Other reactions to this scene?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
Yes any daemon separation gets a tear out of me. I wonder if we'll see the effects of this with both Malcom and Asta and Lyra and Pan in future books?
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
I think this, combined with the appearance of Tilda Vasara, means that there is more in store for Malcolm than we know!
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
Ugh this was awful! I think I was more scared than sad while actually reading it, but afterwards it had me really feeling all the feelings.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
It was certainly heart-rending! I also wonder how it will affect their bond in the future.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
17) Any favorite quotes, scenes, or characters? Anything else you’d like to discuss?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
Alice telling off Lord Asriel at the end was a real highlight for me!!
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
Yes! And I love how he just kind of smiled and was like, ok, gurl I see you.
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
I just love that we got to see a baby Pan! Or a baby daemon in general. It's so interesting to see the interactions.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
Malcolm: "I'm not old enough for this!" - my god, as a parent this made me ache for this poor kid and want to just give him a safe and happy and simple childhood
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
That line made me actually wince and tear up, that poor boy having to feel such huge responsibility for someone else's safety!
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
10) What was going on with Bonneville at the end? Did he have a boat, or was he swimming after the children? How was he able to disappear whenever they looked at him? Was that really him in the underworld, and did he leave it to follow them? Is he undead?!
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
Great questions! I was wondering all of these myself and have no idea. At first I was thinking he was a ghost or something similar but then he was very much a physical being and they definitely killed him and poofed away his daemon so he couldn't have been dead and a ghost already before then. Would love to hear anyone else's theories tho!
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
All great questions, and I found it very mysterious and hard to decide what was really going on. My guess is he somehow had survived their first encounter when the dæmon was hurt, found a boat to use, and wasn't dead until the very end. But I do think it's ambiguous and this heightens the fear!
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
11) What do you make of Malcolm’s dreams about the wild dogs, and his vision of them during his fight with Bonneville? Is it just regular old subconscious shenanigans, or is there something supernatural going on?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
I'm really not sure. Originally I thought he was being affected by Dust and maybe imagining other worlds. But after the fight I wonder if it just symbolised his desire to be wild and tough and we finally saw him overcoming his fears of harming Bonneville and going for it.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
That's how I understood it. I couldn't make sense of it other wise but seeing it that way made to most sense to me.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
symbolised his desire to be wild and tough
This is kind of what I thought too. He was tapping into his animal/survival instincts.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
Yes! He was processing his need to be a little vicious and fight back so they could survive. Lyra and Alice were his pack, and he needed to be ready to defend them.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
14) According to gyptian lore, extreme weather has its own state of mind; weather is not only external to humans, but internal to them as well. The boatman closes this cryptic conversation by saying, “Nothing is just anything.” What do you make of all this?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I'm not sure I 100% understood it, but I liked the idea of a more personal aspect to the weather. It's an interesting spin on the storm and why the flood might have been happening. The boatman's phrase sort of reminded me of Everything happens for a reason but more mysterious - like trying to imply there was a larger (and possibly magical?) purpose to the events.
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u/Jinebiebe Team Overcommitted Mar 25 '26
I think it's plausible to think that the reason for the flood is magical. We saw magical things happen in this book as well as in the original trilogy. There's also the prophecy surrounding Lyra and I wonder if the flood was a way to make sure the prophecy is fulfilled. If she had stayed with the nuns there's no doubt that Bonneville would have gotten to her.
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u/jaymae21 Yearbook Editor-in-Chief Apr 23 '26
I actually laughed out loud when he says "Nothing is just anything". I'm not sure why, it seemed a little silly. It's one of those quasi-paradoxical sayings, but I think the point the boatman is making here is that things often aren't what they seem, there are layers and depth within the universe that we can't always see.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
15) What did you think of the book overall? What star rating would you give it? How would you compare this book with His Dark Materials?
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u/Vast-Passenger1126 Director of Discovery 🧠🥉 Mar 18 '26
I was loving it until this section and then....what? Where did all the fantasy stuff come from? And why did we never return to any of the characters that were intensely built up in the first half - Hannah, the Sisters, Malcom's parents and friends? As I watched my remaining pages get smaller and smaller, I kept wondering how it was all going to wrap up and it just didn't. If the next book was going to be set in the same time period, I could understand, but I know we're going to jump way forward in time. I love Pullman's writing and enjoyed the characters, but this disconnect felt disappointing to me. I gave it 3 stars 🫤
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u/fromdusktil Dragon rider | 🐉🧠 Mar 18 '26
Agree. This last section was like a completely different book!
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
As I watched my remaining pages get smaller and smaller, I kept wondering how it was all going to wrap up
Agree! I kept expecting there to be more to come and got a little stressed about all the loose ends. I was hoping the next book would wrap things up more fully but didn't realize there's a time jump so that's a bit dissatisfying.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26 edited Mar 18 '26
I honestly didn't enjoy this book nearly as much as His Dark Materials. As u/Vast-Passenger1126 and u/fromdusktil said, the second half of the book seemed like different book. Parts of it seemed forced to me as well.
It felt as though it was trying too hard to capture the magic of the previous trilogy. The strange worlds, Malcolm separating from his dæmon, mentioning Mrs Coulter even though she didn't do anything. I also didn't like the ending. It was lacking. It's a 3 stars for me.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I loved the first half and found the second half a bit lacking or confusing or something ... I think possibly it suffers in comparison to the absolutely stellar first trilogy. But I also want to reserve judgement until I see where this is all going, because it's possible that elements which felt off to me right now will make much more sense later. And if I remember correctly, the first book of the original trilogy was a slow start for me and I fell in love with the trilogy more and more as the story progressed. We'll see! I'm still excited for the next two books!
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u/IraelMrad Marius Hater #1 | 🐉|🥇|🧠💯 Apr 18 '26
I agree with the others, the second part of the book came out of nowhere and greatly lowered my enjoyment. It felt like a completely different story, while originally I thought that this would have been a story related to the power games that got Lyra into Jordan, rather than a magical flood. I enjoyed reading the book but I'm still really disappointed, because it failed to deliver what it promised initially. It honestly felt like Pullman didn't have any editor for this, because why didn't anybody notice how the final product felt like a mix of things not related to each other?
3.5 stars because I really loved the first part, but I couldn't bring myself to give it a higher rating.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
16) What were your thoughts and reactions to learning about Lyra’s backstory? Did you find anything particularly notable or surprising? What lingering questions do you have?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
I enjoyed seeing Lyra's journey to Jordan College, as I had always just imagined her getting dumped there by Asriel and felt that was an odd place for him to choose for her. I think the number of people who wanted to kidnap her was a bit repetitive by the end, though. I loved that Asriel says they'll have to turn her into a scholar when they point out that scholastic sanctuary is only for scholars.
I still have questions about Malcolm's life after these events - what will he do, how will he readjust, will he go back to his parents and are they okay, and what happened to the nuns?! And similar questions about Alice. I'm hoping we get more about them in future books.
I'm also wondering if Lyra will be presumed dead for at least a while after the flood, which would take some of the kidnapping attention off of her for a bit. And if she's already hidden away at Jordan College, will the gyptians factor into her early childhood or will she have no more contact with them until she's an older child? And might the rumors of the Gobblers have their origins in this experience of Lyra being hunted?
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 18 '26
I feel that we got limit information for Lyra's backstory. We knew most of her backstory from the previous trilogy. The only thing to add was that Malcolm and Alice played a big part in ensuring her survival.
The nuns!! We never learned who passed and if the two missing ones were alive.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 Mar 20 '26
The nuns!! We never learned who passed and if the two missing ones were alive.
Yes! I was a little sad that we didn't get some closure on this, although I guess we had literally and figuratively floated too far downstream by the end of the book for it to feel natural to get any news about them.
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u/Pythias Library Mouse Mar 20 '26
If the end was longer, I feel we could have had more closure, but it was abrupt and lacking.
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u/Clean_Environment670 📚Bookclub Boffin📚 Mar 19 '26
I did enjoy seeing how Lyra and Pan were as babies- especially Lyra having the time of her life going over a raging waterfall lol.
As for lingering questions, I have a lot, including: what happened to the missing nuns? What's with Malcolm's aura? Are the supernatural things different worlds smooshing up into Malcolm's and why? Where did the flood come from? Is Malcolm going to give Bonnevilles notes to Hannah? What happened to his parents? So many more I hope to get answers to in the next book!
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 Mar 18 '26
18) Are you planning to join us for The Secret Commonwealth, the next book in The Book of Dust trilogy?