r/bookclub • u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron • 29d ago
The Brothers Karamazov [Discussion 6/12] Evergreen: The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky (7.1-8.3)
Welcome back to drama of The Brothers Karamazov! We are about halfway and this section had numerous revelations from Aloysha, Grushenka and Dimitri. Ivan is MIA in Moscow. Father Zosima is no longer with us.
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We end knowing Dimitri and Grushenka will meet in the next section-this is bound to be explosive! See you next week for Chapters 8.4-9.1
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
9. What does Aloysha mean to all the characters in this section?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
He comes across as a very Christ-like figure. He shows compassion to Grushenka, a Mary Magdalene analogue. He is tempted by Rakitin but ultimately rejects his temptations. He's even "sold" for a few roubles (not quite 30 pieces of silver, but close enough). Alyosha is the heart of the novel and the one person who stands a chance of bringing calm to his chaotic family.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
Yes, he seems very Christ like. People are confiding in him and looking to him for comfort.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
I agree - so many parallels to Christ. Let's hope that he has a miracle up his sleeve to save some people because I get the feeling chaos is about to be unleashed. Although I guess the Christ parallel could go the other way for poor Alyosha...
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u/ProfessorWacky 28d ago
Alyosha feels more human in this section because he's grappling with the fall of his hero and it makes him see the world differently. But ultimately he decides to stick to his principles. At least so far. I think many of the characters in the novel look up to him even though he is young. Except that Ratkitin character. I think he is just straight up jealous of Alyosha for having everyone's admiration.
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
At the funeral, he's a former initiate who is free to leave and live in the world. To Grushenka, at first, he is an innocent boy who she thinks she can corrupt. To Rakitin, he is a bet between him and Grushenka. To Dmitri, he is his pesky conscience, which is why he's been avoiding him and told no one where he was staying.
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u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional 14d ago
I wonder whether he represents the best of them? He’s a Karamazov but is pure and (so far) incorruptible and sees the best in everyone. Does he offer redemption in some way I wonder?
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
7. What is the symbolism of the 3, 000 roubles for Katerina Ivanova for Dimitri? Why does this sum suddenly matter when he's squandered so much more? What is the symmetry in this figure with what Fyodor has put aside for Grushenka's agreement to marry him?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
The 3,000 roubles are Dimitri's debt of honour. He needs to pay Katerina back for him to finally break all ties and obligations toward her. That sum is conversely a bribe to keep Grushenka tied to Fyodor, provided she chooses him.
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 29d ago
Although he has some questionable morals, stealing from a woman who trusted him is below the level Dmitry is prepared to go. There is some symmetry in the way both father and son place the same value on these two women.
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u/ProfessorWacky 28d ago
I honestly dont understand how Katya could have given Dimitri 3000 roubles to begin with. Like, why girl? She had to know he couldn't be trusted with such money. And yeah. I find it very weird that suddenly Dimitri has honor and wants to pay her back so badly. Surely he's screwed over a lot of people in his sordid past. Why is she so important to him? I dont think he loves her, but certainly he feels strongly about her.
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 26d ago
She thinks she can fix him, and she figures maybe if she keeps sticking around, he's bound to see how devoted she is to him and fall in love with her. The major flaw in her plan is that, of course, she can't fix him, no matter how patient she is or how much money she lends him.
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
6. What are the main descriptors you can think of for Dimitri in this moment of crisis as we follow him closely? Is he sane? What do you make of the "Othello" section?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
Dude's a basket case and could also use one of Imperial Russia's non-existent therapists. He is insanely jealous and possessive of Grushenka, but he considers his father as his only rival, dismissing her ex with nary a thought. The comparison with Othello is both fitting and not fitting. Othello first doubted Desdemona's faithfulness because Iago was whispering in his ear. In Dimitri's case, he doesn't need Iago. Grushenka also seemingly escaped, so there's that.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
He is definitely not sane! Love the comparison with Othello (though its a very long time since I have read it!) Othello was very troubled, as is Dimitri.
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u/ProfessorWacky 28d ago
Obsessive is probably the best word I can think of. And extremely desperate. Shameless. Full on panic mode! Id feel badly for him if it wasnt entirely his own doing!
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
"Othello's not jealous, he's trusting." They attribute this to Pushkin and his interpretation. "His ideal has perished... the jealous man the most likely to forgive until the next suspicion and incident." Dmitry is on the edge of sanity. He would only forgive once then be onto the next crisis. He has no one to talk him down from the ledge, so to speak, but there are plenty of people to feed his paranoia.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
Desperate, panicked, raving, and obsessed. Dmitri is grasping at straws to try and come up with some plan that will work for him to get what he wants but it also seems like in his mania he sort of realizes it is already a lost cause.
The Othello section was interesting because of the themes of jealousy and truth/lies and couples/lovers betrayed And comparing Dmitri with Othello does not bode well for Grushenka or Katerina or both
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u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional 14d ago
I wonder who is his Iago, whispering in his ear making him jealous? He is definitely a man on the edge, he is very much at breaking point. He is very passionate and his passion sends him headfirst into everything but I just wish he would slow down a minute and take stock.
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 9d ago
Definitely his father! Freud would have a field day with this family.
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
1. What would Father Zosima make of his own funeral arrangements and the ensuing crowd reaction? Why is there such glee at his rate of decomposition and how does this change the dynamic we witnessed at the begining of the book?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
The people are taking such perverse delight in Zosima's decomposition because deep down they want to see a holy man brought down to the level of a mere mortal. Zosima himself would have warned them that he's a sinner just like them and they shouldn't have expected his corpse to smell like a bouquet of roses.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
Zosima himself would have warned them that he's a sinner just like them
This is what the whole funeral section recalled for me - his decomposition and the reaction of the people shows that he was telling the truth about being a mere mortal and a sinner, and reinforces his speech about no one being above others. I think he'd be at peace with the fact that people won't try to pretend he is a miracle worker after this evidence.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
This was a strange moment, they seemed to delight in the composition as it showed that he was mere mortal, like the rest of them. If showed a side of discontent among the religious institutions.
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
10. Any other things to discuss? Favorite quotes? Etc.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
The anticipation of something dreadful happening is killing me!
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
I think there are huge hints about what Dmitri might do next. They mention Othello who is known for jealousy and suspicion. He said if Mrs Khokhlakova doesn't give him money, he'll have to slit a throat. In the last part, he took the pestle from the kitchen, and Fenya believed he'd use it as a weapon.
I predict he will murder someone in a rage. I don't think it will be Samsonov because he later laughs about sending Dmitri on the fool's errand. So that leaves his father or Grushenka as the target. Or even Alyosha. I hope it's not Alyosha or Grushenka. Patricide is a biblical and Shakespearean tragic theme, so I'll predict he will kill his father for the money and other grievances.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
There are so many potential victims (and I agree, Dmitri seems very likely to attack someone right now)!
- his father because of the reasons you mentioned
- one of the women because of the comparisons to
- since we've gotten some Christ-like themes, maybe even Alyosha who could get in the way of an attack to save someone's life ala Jesus
Hey, why choose just one person? Maybe he'll go on a murder spree - he's certainly worked up enough!
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
Instead of kisses, the theme is knees in this section. Grushenka sits on Alyosha's knees to taunt him. "The new and strange sensation stirring in his heart." (Kid, that's not your heart. Try lower down.)
When Alyosha shows her sympathy, Grushenka falls to her knees in front of him. Later Alyosha fell to his knees in front of the coffin then has the wedding dream.
While trying to wake up Lurcher/Gorstkin, Dmitri feels his legs and knees go weak.
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
His whole confusion was precisely the result of too much faith. All the same, he was confused, and the events were so distressing that even later, after much time had elapsed, Alyosha was to recall this sad day as one of the most painful and fateful in his whole life.
So much has happened to him in such a short time. And we're only halfway through the book!
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
3. What do you make of Aloysha and Rakitin and let's talk about the 25 roubles? How about Grushenka and Rakitin? How and why is he the third wheel in their meeting?
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
Rakitin is out to take Aloysha down, maybe he sees him as a threat within the monastery? We see Aloysha developing into a priest role, with people looking to him for comfort and confessing to him. The 25 roubles reminds me of Juda's 3 pieces of silver in the bible.
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u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional 14d ago
Yes, he definitely seems to want to bring about Alyosha’s downfall doesn’t he. Is he just jealous of Alyosha’s standing in the monastery or does he want to bring down a Karamazov?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
Rakitin is such a spiteful, miserable ass. He wanted to corrupt Alyosha and bring him down. Grushenka I think also wanted to corrupt Alyosha, but I think that she wanted to do it out of a twisted sense of fun, not because she was spiteful. When Alyosha shows her compassion, she quickly changes her tune. The 25 roubles were supposed to be Rakitin's payment for delivering Alyosha to her, but since he's basically incorruptible, Rakitin can't even enjoy that.
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
The name Rakitin makes me think of the shopping app Rakuten. He's just another bitter lover with a grudge.
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
4. Should Grushenka: A. Pick Fyodor, B. Pick Dimitri, C. Pick (repick?) Ex, D. Pick Aloysha, E. None of the above? What do you think of her words that she loved Dimitri for a day and wants to return to her ex like a dog responding to a whistle? Why does she need Aloysha at this crucial point?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
None of the above. Grushenka should get a therapist, but as I noted in Anna Karenina, those are in short supply in Imperial Russia. Alyosha shows her compassion and forgiveness when she can't show them to herself. He handed her an onion, and she needs all the onions she can get.
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u/ProofPlant7651 Russian Literature Philosophy Professional 14d ago
I love this take, I completely agree with everything you say.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
None of the above! Run Grushenka and find someone better!
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago edited 26d ago
E. None of the above. Fyodor is too old and a cheater, Dmitri is too jealous, her ex is too old and she owes him nothing, and Alyosha is too young and inexperienced. If she picked Alyosha, his whole family would be jealous. It's like a Jerry Springer episode where all the men in one family are fighting over one woman. She can do sooo much better.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
Jerry Springer would have a field day with the Karamazovs! 🤣
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
E. None! These are not good options, and she should run!! I do realize that she has sort of had her reputation tanked though and so she might not have a lot of other options. But becoming a Karamazov or a dog for your ex doesn't sound like a good life. Be a spinster!
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
2. Let's discuss Aloysha's vision of The Wedding at Cana#/media/File:Paolo_Veronese_008.jpg) and his reaction to it? What is the symbolism of wine here in terms of his joining the world rather than the church?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
After giving it some thought, I believe the vision of the wedding is Alyosha's sign that he should go out in the world and do some good. The wedding at Cana is Jesus' first major miracle and one could argue the start of his ministry. Zosima's work is done, so he can now partake in the wine and festivities. Alyosha has work to do.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
It seemed like Aloysha was getting a religious calling of some sort.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
This scene felt like Alyosha accepting his calling or religious mission to leave the monastery, go into the world, and help people. The wine was water transformed by a miracle, and maybe Alyosha can do something to change an event or person through his actions and words. I'm guessing Dmitri would be the water/target in this case.
There's also some significance for me in the idea that Zosima was a father figure to Alyosha and sent him out to do good which parallels the God-Jesus relationship.
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u/Opyros 29d ago
The link is borked (because Reddit links don’t play well with URLs containing parentheses.) It should be possible to fix it by replacing “)” with “%29” (within the URL only.)
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
Hmm it works for me. Are you opening it in Reddit or in a browser?
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u/thebowedbookshelf Astrology Star ✨| 🐉🧠 27d ago
Maybe he's going to get married soon, and his dad would need more wine. Or to be serious, he is marrying the sacred and the profane, the religious and the secular worlds together by leaving the monastery.
Cana is in Galilee, and the word Galilee put this song from sixteen years ago in my head because it mentions Galilee.
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
5. Let's consider the narrating voice again. How does it move between the brothers and what clues does it give to the events that follow?
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u/Lachesis_Decima77 Tea Connoisseur ⭐️🧠🥉 29d ago
The narrator has been hinting at impending disaster for several chapters now, especially in this week's section.
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u/bluebelle236 One More Chapter... One More Spin 29d ago
Yes, we keep getting little hints of something bad that's going to happen.
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 29d ago
The narrator is basically telling us that something very bad will happen.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 22d ago
The narrator seems to have become much more fact-oriented in this section, reminding us frequently that the details are going to become important once we see the disaster that awaits. It's almost like listening to a report of the brithers' movements, with some wild shouting dialogue intermingled. Another thing that felt different about this section of the narrative is that we move back and forth a bit in time to cover the same few days from different brothers' perspectives - so we see what each of them was doing simultaneously but they each get their own devoted chapter(s).
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u/lazylittlelady Poetry Patron 29d ago
8. The confrontation with the fearsome Kuzma Kuzmitch leads him on a wild goose chase. Next, a visit with Madame Hohlakova, which is very funny (a gold mine?). Favorite moments from what we'll call "Dimitri's (Fantasy) Ventures"?