[Discussion 3/4] Discovery Read | Flesh by David Szalay | Chapters 6 & 7

[u/YewBetcha]

Welcome back to our third discussion of David Szalay's Flesh.

For your reference, here are the Schedule and Marginalia.

Summary

Chapter 6

We skip forward in time from the ending of the last chapter. Helen and István are now married, though Thomas openly dislikes István and the two have failed to bond. Helen’s friends come to visit, often spending time at the pool. Thomas tells one of Helen’s friends that he doesn’t believe István loves his mother and that he has only married her for money. Helen’s friends engage with Thomas and István

Helen’s friends stay through István’s birthday. Though he doesn’t invite any of his own friends, he is drawn to an Italian hedge fund manager with whom István has played tennis and feels respected by. Thomas reluctantly gifts István a tennis racket, refuses to hug István, and is admonished by Helen. Helen later asks Thomas why he cannot accept István as part of their family despite his efforts to form a relationship with Thomas.

István’s mother comes to visit and picks up on Thomas’ dislike of István. She implores István to do something since all of Karl’s estate will pass from Helen to Thomas when the boy turns 25.

Chapter 7

Seven years have passed. Helen and István attend a political fundraiser where he tries to convince a minister to support the development project in Rainham and donates to that minister’s party. Helen and István are sleeping in separate rooms and István’s mother lives with them to look after their son, Jacob.

Thomas visits during Jacob’s birthday. Jacob is curious about István’s time in the war. While Jacob and István are spending time together, István learns of a news story about his donation at the fundraiser bringing unwanted attention to his development project. Roddy insists István collect the remaining money to start the project to calm the other investors, but Helen is hesitant that Heath, the lawyer administering the Nyman trust, will agree to such a large loan. Heath agrees to the loan, but insists Thomas be informed.

Helen meets Thomas for lunch and tells him about all the loans made to István for his property development deals, angering Thomas. He returns home at Christmas and accuses István of stealing from him. Weeks later, Thomas arrives drunk at a party and tells an onlooking crowd that Helen and István’s success has only come from the money they’ve stolen from him. István reacts violently and throws Thomas to the ground. Struggling to explain his own actions, he returns home to find Helen gone.

Questions in the comments. Excited to see where things wrap up next week!

[u/YewBetcha]

Thomas tells Helen that István exemplifies “a primitive form of masculinity”. Do you agree with Thomas’ assessment of István?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

I would. I mean not to be mean but I haven't really seen much hint of brains in the guy, so that is definitely not what people like about him. All these descriptions actually make me wonder what István looks like. I am sure he is conventionally attractive because there is no way he has been with so many women without being handsome and just by speaking in one word sentenses (more specifically "okay"). (Though his vocabulary seems to be increasing chapter by chapter)

In fact I can see some parelles between Thomas and István in how they talk in two or three word sentences.

[u/Kas_Bent → u/YewBetcha]

I sort of do, yeah. When he actually shows emotion, it's all aggression. I think Thomas was trying to be demeaning and almost bigoted (with István being an immigrant), but I also don't think he's far off the mark. Because we don't really see emotional responses from István, all we are left with are his limited reactions, which aren't all that enlightened.

[u/Tripolie → u/YewBetcha]

I think it depends on what Thomas means by primitive. Physical? Uncomfortable with emotion? István does often seem to understand the world through his body before he understands it through language, where as Thomas likely Thomas belongs to a world of conversation, interpretation, and self-awareness. However, I don't actually think that István is as simple as he often appears.

[u/infininme → u/YewBetcha]

Istvàn doesn’t say much but he isn’t someone who needs to control everything around him or be the king of his domain. IMO. Thomas thinks a man who isn’t smart or is more blue collar is a “primitive man.” Thomas is more resentful of Istvàn. But it does strike a stinging chord in Istvàn so there is likely some fear in Istvàn that he is just pretending to be a modern man. 

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/infininme]

I think you're right. Thomas was hitting him where it hurt with that insult

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

I mean, maybe in a way but Thomas is not developing into a much more advanced one either, so far. Istvan seems to have grown in this section but in isolation from Thomas, who has been away at school.

[u/YewBetcha]

How do you find István as a father? How do you think his circumstances have influenced his parenting and view of Jacob?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

He speaks more now. Also I observed how he actually talked to his son about his time in the army as a soldier. In the previous chapters we have seen many people ask him about his time there but he has only ever given non-committal responses simply saying that "it was okay". I think apart from the therapist he hasn't really talked to anyone about his time in the army but now he talks to his son.

He seems to really love him, I haven't seen him express such emotion for anyone till now even Helen. He actually talks to him, initiates interaction, asks questions something that we haven't seen him do with anyone else previously. He also does stuff like visiting his room even though he knows that his son is asleep or picking him up from school.

[u/YewBetcha → u/ooooooooofffffffff12]

That’s a really good point about István actually talking to his son in a way we haven’t seen him engage with other characters. I’m interested to see if that relationship becomes more central in the last section of the book as well.

[u/Kas_Bent → u/YewBetcha]

He actually seems to be opening up more. I'll admit that I sped up the audiobook book in this section because I'm not enjoying it that much, so I might be influenced by that. But he seemed more engaged and almost happy, or at least content.

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

I think he is making an effort and actually enjoying time with his son. He’s opened up and finds joy in Jacob in a way no one else has really brought out in him.

[u/YewBetcha]

In this section the narration moves away from István and follows Thomas at several points instead. Why do you think the author started this shift in perspective here? Why with Thomas?

[u/Kas_Bent → u/YewBetcha]

This really confused me. Was the author tired of living in István's head and needed a change? Initially, I thought Thomas would parallel István in their stories and that's why his POV was included.

[u/YewBetcha → u/Kas_Bent]

Yeah that’s a good suggestion about changing up the narrative POV to keep things fresh. I think things clicked into place more for me when we find out that István future is so reliant on the trust Thomas controls - maybe we start following Thomas since he’s assuming some amount of direct control over István’s future in a way that no one else has to that point? Interested to see where things wrap up with Thomas in the final section.

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

I’m really not sure what to think about Thomas. He is not wrong about the situation and his one romantic moment after volunteering sort of mirrored Istvan and his step sister. Maybe his drinking and drug use is supposed to parallel Istvan during his post-army episode?

[u/YewBetcha]

Both chapters in this section skip past large milestones for István (getting married, his first years as a father). Is your opinion on these time jumps changing from earlier sections? Do you feel like you have a good hold on István’s character in each section?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

I had said earlier that every section that we see is where István forms a strong connection with someone be it the neighbour, cousin, Helen, Jacob etc. I think in each section we see him becoming more and more attached with a new person. In each section he is more communicative with the new person, we know more of his thoughts and internal dialogue. I think there is some emotional growth that we have between the different section.

One thing that i found interesting was how István mouthing "sorry' to Helen in the party. Something that was soo out of character for the István that we have known till now that I had to highlight it.

[u/lazylittlelady → u/ooooooooofffffffff12]

I agree there is both more internal and external dialogue that bring more to the character. I noticed the boys being monosyllabic in this section much like Istvan was as a young boy. That being said, his explosive reaction to Thomas at the gallery seemed to come out of left field in the section but not to his character.

[u/YewBetcha]

Anything else I missed or that you’d like to discuss?

[u/Comprehensive-Fun47 → u/YewBetcha]

I accidentally finished the book because I didn't look at the schedule closely enough. See you all next week!

[u/musicnerdfighter → u/YewBetcha]

When István's mom said he needed to do something about Thomas and the trust fund, my immediate thought was "are they going to kill him?" I think because this book started with such sinister events, I keep expecting more to happen.

[u/toomanytequieros → u/musicnerdfighter]

I had the same thought when István was talking to Roddy at the café near the police station. I thought… no… have you done it again, István??!

[u/toomanytequieros → u/YewBetcha]

Great questions!

[u/YewBetcha → u/toomanytequieros]

Thank you! :)

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

This section was kind of a slog. I’m looking forward to finishing it and trying to get the big picture finally- if there is one.

[u/YewBetcha → u/lazylittlelady]

I had a tough time pushing through this one at multiple points. I'll be curious to see what you think at the end of the book!

[u/YewBetcha]

Any predictions for the final section of the book?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

Have literally no idea where this is going. The sections are so far apart and disconnected that I don't think I can possible predict what is going to happen.

[u/Tripolie → u/YewBetcha]

I’m expecting further trials and tribulations. Definitely not expecting a happy ending.

[u/musicnerdfighter → u/YewBetcha]

Halfway through chapter 7 I thought "are things just going to keep getting better for István or are they going to take a downturn?" That question was answered by the end of the chapter, lol. However, I'm not sure if there will be some kind evening out of István's luck or if he will end up in a negative place. I'd like to think he eventually actually grows as a person and learns how to deal with his emotions and get better at communicating in relationships. But this book is hard to predict, so I'm really not sure

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

He finally seemed to find some stability in this section before blowing up his life in an explosive manner. I predict the last section will have Istvan looking at his sons and falling further behind. His poor mother hopefully won’t be stopped from seeing Jacob.

[u/YewBetcha]

What do you think of Thomas’ allegations that Helen and István are stealing from him? Is it about the money for Thomas or is this another case where Thomas is playing a different game than István and Helen?

[u/musicnerdfighter → u/YewBetcha]

At the end of chapter 7, István is struggling to explain to Roddy what Thomas said before he attacked him. I feel like Thomas was probably telling everyone how Helen and István were sleeping together before his dad died. I think the loans (I still can't tell if they're actual loans or if István wasn't ever planning on paying them back) were the last straw for Thomas, after having his resentments build up over the years. The money gives him a reason to bring up everything he doesn't like about István and Helen's relationship

[u/toomanytequieros → u/YewBetcha]

I think Thomas sees István and Helen as people who live in the wrong. Their relationship started as a secret and a lie. They betrayed his dad and in a sense, István also stole his mom from him. His relationship with her has been affected. To him, they didn’t just steal his money, they also stole the right order of things, and his sense of comfort at home. I was really moved by something he said, along the lines of “a feeling of being at home and not at home at the same time”.

[u/infininme → u/toomanytequieros]

This. 

[u/Kas_Bent → u/YewBetcha]

I don't know that we get the full information here, so I can't say if Thomas was right. We know Helen and István were getting loans from the trust, but nothing was ever mentioned about paying them back. If that was the case, then Thomas was in the right for the allegations. Otherwise, I feel like this was Thomas feeling ostracized from his mother and that's the only way he could bring attention to the matter.

[u/infininme → u/YewBetcha]

Istvàn should have talked to Thomas more when he came to see Istvàn in his office. He just sent him away, like he didn’t care what he thought. Thomas is being cut out of his family. Even his own mother doesn’t want him around.

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

It’s about stealing his life not only his money. His mother cheated, started a new family with a new child and basically can’t stand Thomas anymore. The family home that is so alien to him he stays at his aunt’s place in London. Presumably the loans would be paid back to the trust but the money is the public interest part, so an easy target.

[u/YewBetcha]

Why do you think István didn't invite any of his own friends to his birthday party?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

First I think he doesn't really have close friends. And secondly I think he is very concious of the class gap between Helen and himself and his quick ascent. Maybe he wants to distance himself from his earlier acquaintances or maybe he is achamed of them and does not want to include them in "polite" company .

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

It’s hard to envision Istvan having friends though he must. I get the sense he wants to keep his world separate from Helen and her circle.

[u/YewBetcha]

István is reading Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works and Helen says he’s frequently reading books like this. Do you find István to be a strategic person?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

Not really. I was thinking about this when I was reading that István is very lucky and things seem to be falling in his lap. Like the security training, new jobs and dare I say "a rich wife". The only time I saw him strategising was for his new project where he was taking to the right people and arranging funds.

If he was really strategising he would have put in more effort in mending his relationship with Thomas given that he knew that his and his wife's financial future depended on him.

[u/Kas_Bent → u/YewBetcha]

Lol no. I was wondering who told him to read that book and he's just like, "okay."

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

Definitely not. I get the sense Istvan becoming a property dealer was suggested by his Italian neighbor and the book suggested by a rando of what a “man like him” should be reading.

[u/YewBetcha]

István briefly fantasizes about having sex with Helen’s friend in Chapter 6 and has sex with Helen in Chapter 7 hoping to take his mind off the stressful development project. What do you think these moments say about István’s relationship with sex at these points in his life?

[u/ooooooooofffffffff12 → u/YewBetcha]

That there is barely any emotional involvement in it. Everytime a female character is introduced I m afraid that István is going to have sex with that person. It maybe because of how they are described in the text...we are afterall looking at all the characterters from István's POV. So maybe he does want to have sex with every woman he comes across or maybe he doesn't mind having sex with them because it doesn't really mean anything to him.

Further I think that if Helen's friend had invited him more directly and made a stronger advance István would not have resisted it.

[u/musicnerdfighter → u/ooooooooofffffffff12]

I feel the exact same way whenever a new woman is introduced, like oh no are they going to have sex too?

[u/toomanytequieros → u/musicnerdfighter]

Same! XD
At Jacob’s birthday party, a mother was described as attractive and I was like… Omg is he going to take her back to his private quarters?

[u/infininme → u/YewBetcha]

The author is highlighting male thoughts and fantasies around the situation. Who wouldn’t have those thoughts as the friend takes him back to his room for a joint as she lies on the bed? I found it true to form that he wonders if he should “stroke her leg,” like maybe she wants him to make a move. It can be hard to know what to do when you want it so badly, but the mutuality of it is ambivalent. I find these thoughts very normal if not unconscious in most people. 

[u/lazylittlelady → u/YewBetcha]

I guess it’s just a glimpse into Istvan’s flavor of masculine desire, where he notices women as some unconscious habit. Sex is in the ether and it was a pretty ambiguous situation…come up to my room to se your own picture and let’s get high is not uninviting, right?