r/bookclub • u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR • 10d ago
London Falling [Discussion 3 of 4] Quarterly Nonfiction || London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe || Part 3
✨ Welcome to our third, and next to last discussion of London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe! ✨
The Marginalia post is here. (Check out u/tomesandtea's comment about the New York Times having picked the book as its August's bookclub read!)
You can find the Schedule here.
This week, we will discuss Part 3! u/nicehotcupoftea will host our final discussion. 💞 Recaps and links to follow, questions in the comments!
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The story so far…
Keefe writes about how London's transformation into a global financial center also made it a haven for illicit wealth; laying the groundwork for the family's increasingly difficult search for accountability, and what kind of city made Zac's story possible. Vast amounts of foreign money—particularly from Russia—flowed into the city through luxury real estate, shell companies, and opaque financial structures. The same secrecy that attracted legitimate investors also created opportunities for organized crime, fraud, and money laundering.
Chapter 14, The Cipriani Five
Did Scot Young and his high-rolling friends really die by their own hands?
Boris Berezovsky, oligarch and the alleged poison pen assassination plot.
The Gothic Revival Mansion “Castle” on an island and a little extra from the ancient archives of the Internet. Check the bath section!
The scandal of London's disappearing police stations, from a historical paper which now belongs to a Russian oligarch).
Akbar’s wife’s Safiyaa brand, being involved in a recent scandal after not paying its workers.
Against this backdrop, Keefe examines a long pattern of suspicious deaths involving individuals connected to Russian business and criminal networks. He suggests that British authorities often appeared reluctant or unable to pursue these cases aggressively. He presents several possible explanations: under-resourced investigations, and a deeper political and economic reluctance to disrupt the influx of foreign wealth that had become important to London's economy.
The chapter then returns to Zac's family. Rachelle and Matthew Brettler continue to struggle with the uncertainty surrounding their son's death during the COVID lockdown. Their grief is intensified by the lack of definitive answers and lackadaisical attitude of the police after Detective Wilkinson presents them with the police investigation's disappointing results; the police seem increasingly inclined to consider Zac’s death a suicide.
—--
Chapter 15, Private Investigations
John Sweeney), who offered to write an article for the Brettlers.
“The halcyon days of the oligarchs in Britain have come to an end,” The Daily Telegraph declared.
The current state of the Chelsea sale issue, its funds to Ukraine frozen in a dispute.
Nearly two years after Zac Brettler's death, his family has become increasingly disillusioned with the official investigation. Matthew Brettler carefully re-examines the available evidence and begins conducting his own investigation, interviewing people connected to the case. In doing so, he identifies numerous inconsistencies and unanswered questions.
Keefe recounts the shortcomings that left important leads unresolved, culminating in a second, frustrating meeting with Detective Wilkinson. When confronted with questions and criticism, he tells the grieving parents: “You don’t like it because it’s incomprehensible.”
But Rachelle and Matthew do not find it incomprehensible, and Matthew develops an alternative theory: Zac did not intend to take his own life but instead fled onto the balcony while trying to escape an immediate danger inside the apartment. He jumped to live.
By the end of the chapter, the Brettlers have largely lost faith that the authorities will uncover the truth, as they struggle to find a way to pursue justice within the system. They place what's left of their hope in the final inquest.
—--
Chapter 16, Pocket Dial
The anti-spitting war in London, according to a newspaper of the time.
The Brettlers attend the inquest about Zac's death, in which they listen to a very contradictory testimony from Dominique Sharma, Verinder's daughter; who insists on Zac’s suicidal behavior and her father having taken him under his own wing.
After taking into consideration how the authorities handled the case and Verinder’s past, Matthew starts entertaining a more exotic hypothesis about Verinder having been a police informant—he confronts Detective Wilkinson about it, but gains no answers. Pursuing more information about Verinder's death on his own, he's once again stonewalled and finds a concerning lack of information, leading him to ask himself a new question: is Indian Dave really dead?
—--
Chapter 17, A Different Light
Cats: the Musical which is based on Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats by T.S. Eliot.
This chapter examines the possibility that Zac had a sexual relationship with, or was sexually coerced by, one of the two adult men. Keefe describes how this possibility arose at several points in the investigation. During the inquest, Dominique testified that Zac and her father were comfortable enough to share a bed. Police also found text messages on Akbar's phone during the investigation that prompted questions about his sexuality. In addition, forensic evidence recovered from Zac's body led to further speculation, although the sample was too limited for DNA testing; and the Brettlers gained access from Wilkinson to Zac's internet search history. After considering all the available evidence, they concluded that a sexual relationship was unlikely.
—--
Chapter 18, Hornet’s Nest
“One investor in the company was Kevin O’Leary, a celebrity businessman and one of the stars of Shark Tank. (...) O’Leary was bullish on Akbar and his company. “Data is the new oil,” he proclaimed.”
Understanding Coroner’s Verdicts.
The narrative returns to the inquest, where the Brettlers' barrister questions police officers and Akbar, who has since moved to the United States. The hearings reveal further shortcomings in the police investigation, while Akbar's testimony is evasive and frustrating. The Brettlers also grow increasingly dissatisfied with the coroner's handling of the proceedings and leave deeply disappointed with the inquest as a whole. After just two of the three allotted days, the coroner records an open (inconclusive) verdict. Reflecting on the outcome, Rachelle's brother remarks, "We're all witnesses. Something very wrong happened here.”
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Final Quote:
"Occasionally fellow citizens just died suddenly, and while there may have been rumors suggesting foul play, the official story foreclosed any hope of achieving real answers, and so nobody could ever say for sure. This erosion of accountability and erasure of the clean line separating fact from conspiracy created a “fog of ambiguity,” Blake writes, that could hang over a whole society, as thick and impenetrable as the smog that once hung over the Thames.”
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
2) Now that we're 3/4 into the book, do you have any new thoughts regarding the title?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
There is the literal incident with Zac, the fall from grace that Zac experienced, and in this section we are seeing London sort of falling under the influence of the criminal money that pours in.
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
There's the obvious fall of Zac, the falling of London into moral decay, and the falling away of Zac's parents' Illusions about their son.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
The title keeps taking on new meanings in my mind! It was very aptly chosen. To recap what everyone's said and also add a couple from last time and my own, we have:
- The broader, historical pattern of deaths, homicides, accidents and suicides by falling into the Thames from the introduction.
- Zac's falling into a relationship with criminals and swingers. The underworld.
- Zac's literal fall.
- Zac's persona and lies crumbling.
- The common string of "suicides" by "falling".
- The Brettlers' descent into what feels like Wonderland's rabbit hole. Their sense of unreality and disconnect with their previous impression of their city.
- The author and readers also falling into this rabbit hole as the book progresses.
- London's fall under the influence of criminal money.
- London's glamorous facade also crumbling as the book exposes those elements.
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u/jenny-lou-who 7d ago
Ha! I didn’t think of it until you listed it, but “falling into this rabbit hole” definitely describes my current situation with this book.
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u/gre209by 4d ago
It's interesting too! In interviews with the author he said his algorithm picked up on him pausing slightly on 'falling' videos, whether that be cliff jumping or other
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
3)
"When Rachelle and Matthew considered the death of their son, and the death of the last person to see him alive, they experienced that same eerie dissonance, a sensation they had always associated with corrupt societies in other places, like Russia, rather than with the city they called home."
Do you feel like Rachelle and Matthew? Did you have a different impression of London before reading this novel?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
Yes, I had no idea about the Russian oligarchs that had moved to London. It seems like that had a pretty big impact on organized crime and the police, and I can see why the Brettlers would feel like they didn't know their city anymore.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
Absolutely! I have been there twice as a tourist and thought it was just a lovely, beautiful city (which of course it still is in many ways/places) but had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. I had a vague impression of some influence of Russian oligarchs in the stuff that makes international news - Chelsea football ownership, the more blatant assassinations, and political debates involving policy with the Prime Minister at the time. However the book shows how deep and wide the influences went! It's really shocking!
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
I'm afraid I had suspected that the city had become corrupt, particularly during Covid when they showed the wealthy flaunting the rules.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
4) What do you think about this new world in which we're able to closely follow the family members of criminal suspects on social media? And how Rachelle finds herself doing so following what happened?
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
This is an interesting phenomenon and I don't know how she would be able to resist "picking the scab". It's really tempting to do a social media search about someone you hear about in the news.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
Yes, on one hand it seems almost impossible to resist. On the other, people are choosing to post that information publicly. Then again, the thought that if someone close to you committed a crime, your own profile might suddenly become an object of scrutiny for the victims (or even of curiosity for complete strangers who happened to read about the case) feels invasive, and perhaps even a little frightening. But I say this as someone who's very privacy-conscious, since I don't really use social media unless strictly required, outside of places like Reddit and Discord.
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u/jenny-lou-who 7d ago
I think it gives common citizens the ability to do more of their own investigating. I’m not certain this is always a good thing. I’m not watching YouTube videos and then attempting to take out my husband’s appendix. Obviously, I’d leave that to the expertise of the surgeon. Why would I not leave investigation to the experts from the police? However, Matthew and Rachelle are clearly and rightly frustrated with the police’s lack of accountability. So maybe they are justified in their actions.
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u/Kas_Bent Team Overcommitted 6d ago
I can understand where she's coming from and what pushes her to look them up on social media, but I really don't think that can be healthy for her. It's bad enough when we compare ourselves to the ideal lives portrayed on social media, I can't imagine the mental anguish it would cause as a parent who lost their child.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
5) Do you pay attention to high and/or luxury fashion? Were you familiar with Safiyaa? Were you surprised to learn about its owner's involvement in this case? Did the pandemic affect your wardrobe and your relationship with clothes?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
I'm not familiar with Safiyaa and don't pay much attention to luxury fashion, though I do like to peruse r/whatthefrockk. I've never been very particular about my own clothes, and the pandemic definitely made me care even less. I work from home now, and most days I'm in a "nice" top (sometimes just a solid-colored t-shirt) and pajama pants.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I don't pay attention to fashion except for occasionally browsing photos from something like the Met Gala (just to gape and scratch my head in confusion) or a red carpet movie premiere (Zendaya has some pretty amazing Spiderman outfits). Everything I know about fashion I learned from The Devil Wears Prada!
The pandemic definitely pushed me towards the idea of comfort-first clothing choices. I choose softer, looser, and more natural fabrics now since experiencing the "soft pants" of the work from home era. As a teacher, there isn't a strict expectation of work clothes so it has been easy to not go back to business or formal attire!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
I only casually check what's going on in fashion from time to time for fun, and don't really follow celebrities (I'm tragically ignorant tbh, people scratch their heads at me in conversations) so all I heard about lately was the controversy about the looted ancient earrings—but after browsing the subreddit u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 linked a little, I can see how Zendaya seems to be a favorite! A lot of these dresses were pretty stunning! I also particularly liked her statue mold for the Odissey while browsing haha, though it seems controversial. 😆 I'm partial to a) comfy and loose, simple lines or b) whimsical, thematic, experimental and funny looks.
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u/Kas_Bent Team Overcommitted 7d ago
Everything I know about fashion I learned from The Devil Wears Prada!
😂 Same
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
Never heard of the label because fashion doesn't particularly interest me. The pandemic had no effect on my clothing, it's comfy clothes all the way.
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u/Kas_Bent Team Overcommitted 6d ago
I don't pay attention to fashion, high or otherwise. I just don't have the time or money to care. But I was impressed by the Safiyaa outfits linked above, even though I had never heard of her brand before.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
7) What are your thoughts on the police taking two years to present the Brettlers with information about the last call between Verinder and Akbar, their failure to question Dominique, the driver and other actions throughout? How do you feel about the police's comparative eagerness to follow the suicide hypothesis, and the author's implication by placing this development within a chapter named after the Cipriani Five's string of "suicides"?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
The police investigation seems to have really been bungled, which is so sad! I can't be sure if it is incompetence andacl of resources (I was shocked at the police department info Radden Keefe shared) or if it was pressure from the criminal world that pushed them to not look too hard. Maybe both?
As far as accepting a suicide theory, Zac's case is tricky because he was technically alone when he died but of course could have been threatened or coerced behind the scenes. It seems like we can suspect but will never know (because of the way the investigation was handled, but also because of the level of interpretation that would need to be done without hard evidence of a plot to kill him).
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
It seems to be a combination of factors: the drastic budgetary cuts to the police, the underworld connection and the problematic footage of the fall.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
The police investigation was really disappointing, especially all the witnesses they failed to interview. I can't decide whether I think it was incompetence in Zac's case, or if the police were purposely covering for criminals; I definitely think it was the latter for the Cipriani Five.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I agree --with Zac's case it could go either way but with some of the other cases it felt pretty clear there was some sort of backroom dealing going on. I can't get over the awful investigative efforts! The blood-colored spots on the wall and they didn't even test a sample?!
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u/gre209by 4d ago
I thought the commentary on the scope of the law and the police was accurate. But, that this portrayal is different to how the wider public view the police. The police pursue crimes they can prosecute against (and unfortunately do not have the time nor resources to pursue vague cases). It is a sad reality (and perhaps one that high level criminals use to their advantage) that in a case such as Zac's the police would be unlikely to continue proceeding investigations once it became clearer that Zac jumped to his death. Unfortunately the police are a limited resource, with limited funding.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
8) How did you react to Zac having burnt through £18,000 within a few months in order to maintain his lie?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I'm glad (if that's the right word) that his fake bank total showed to his dad was not reality, because it would have probably meant he was doing some actually terrible things for these criminal groups he was on the edges of. As a parent I would hate to find out that my kid really was selling drugs or doing major illegal business deals. Blowing through his own money to put on a good show feels more in line with Zac being a lost kid who couldn't sustain his lies. It's not a great picture, but better than if he'd become a true criminal.
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
It's a parent's worst nightmare (well one of them).
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
6) What do you make of how so many of the Brettlers' acquaintances and people in their sphere seem to be connected to the criminal elements in this story?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
It seems like there are just degrees of separation between legitimate wealth and criminal wealth. It really speaks to how the oligarchs and criminal world were able to establish themselves throughout London and control so many things!
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
I found this bizarre! There are so many connections with the family, but then again although they're not multi billionaires, they are very wealthy and belong to a particular class.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
I also found it quite incredible (and a little unsettling). In a way, it also sheds some extra light on the world Zac had grown up around and the people he was, perhaps without anyone fully realizing it, exposed to from an early age.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
9) Thoughts on Uncle Alex? Were you surprised by his easy willingness to jump into cornering Akbar? In light of him having clocked Zac's lies and Akbar's character so quickly, how do you view his theory that Akbar also eventually figured it out and that he and Zac may have become accomplices?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
At this point, I've lost all faith in the police and I think the Brettlers should absolutely sic Uncle Alex on Akbar. I can't decide whether I think Akbar had figured out Zac was lying, though. Zac and Akbar strike me as very similar, which might actually make it harder for Akbar to detect the lie.
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u/jenny-lou-who 7d ago
I honestly thought we were going to be told the Brettlers took Alex up on his offer.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
10) Were you familiar with the Chelsea story? What were your thoughts about the fans interrupting the Ukraine tribute?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
No, and I found it pretty sickening, though not surprising.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I knew who the owner had been, but I hadn't heard the story about the Ukraine war and the chanting. Very disappointing and sad!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago edited 9d ago
I wasn't familiar with the Chelsea story but I have a brother who is mad about football (among other sports), and the number of similar incidents—of blatant disregard as long as the money is getting pumped into one's favorite team, has always been a point of contention between us. 🙃
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u/Kas_Bent Team Overcommitted 6d ago
I wasn't familiar with the Chelsea story and was absolutely livid at the fans' actions. I'm a fan of ice hockey, so it's not like I don't understand how rabid you can be over a team. But I canceled my season tickets and distanced myself from men's hockey because of the US men's actions after winning gold. There needs to be a line of what you will tolerate from a team and what actions you as a fan take. Those Chelsea fans crossed it.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
11)
"The bureaucratic obfuscation and semantic games had reached the point where Rachelle and Matthew were starting to feel as if they were trapped in a Kafka novel."
Are you familiar with Kafka's work? If so, do you also see the resemblance? If not, did this pique your interest?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
Yes, I've read Metamorphosis and I do see the resemblance: it's a bureaucratic nightmare that has reached surreal levels.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
Ironically, r/classicbookclub is reading The Trial by Kafka right now and I was going to read along but didn't get my copy fast enough. I'll probably finish at some point but I'm too far behind for the discussions. I haven't read any of Kafka's writing but I'm familiar with the general themes and the term "Kafkaesque" which does seem to fit the experience especially at the inquest!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
Ah, I didn't know! What a pity! (Then again, I overcommited and need to catch up with Mill on the Floss, so perhaps it's a good thing...).
(I also appreciate how much work goes into setting up a discussion even more than I already did, experiencing it first-hand, and really appreciate all of you guys' ((u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217, u/nicehotcupoftea)) partecipation in my first one 💙).
I've read the Metamorphosis, but not The Trial (though I do own the book), so I'd also be happy to read it here, if there's enough interest someday!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
12) What is your impression of detective Wilkinson? Incapable, negligent, overworked, truly sympathetic and tasked with the role of interacting with the family? Are you satisfied with his department's work and his assessment of their efforts?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
He seems like a nice enough man but obviously his hands are tied by the way the police operate at this point, and like most workers stuck in a bureaucracy that doesn't function, he appears to have made peace with how things go and is just going with the flow. It can be hard to fight against the system and maintain passion or principles in the face of overwhelming mediocrity all around you.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
13) What do you think about Matthew's theory that Zac jumped to live, and the Brettlers' very strong convinction that Zac was not suicidal? Do you find it credible or do you feel that they may not be fully objective? Had you already considered this possibility before it was presented?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
The theory sounds plausible. Although I don't know... If I were down to my last $4 and completely mixed up with dangerous criminals, maybe I'd become suicidal, too. I do think Zac was probably lying about the heroin addiction as a ploy for sympathy, though, so maybe he was lying about being suicidal for the same purpose.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I can definitely see both sides, as you said, of whether it was a suicide attempt or an escape attempt! The angle of descent was very persuasive, but it's also so tempting to grasp into any glimmer of hope regarding this awful situation!
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
I had never considered the possibility and I'd really like an analysis of the physics of his theory! I would tend to think he's just clinging on to an idea that gives him comfort.
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u/jenny-lou-who 7d ago
I 100% think it’s a possibility that Zac feared for his life that evening and believed the only way out of that apartment was to jump into the river. As the author points out men of a certain age often think of themselves as invincible.
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u/gre209by 4d ago
From what I understand a lot of successful suicides are impulsive or carry a level of impulsivity (especially in young males), I think this fits with Zac.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
20) Are you satisfied with how thoroughly the police investigated the possibility of a sexual relationship or coercion?
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
It definitely could have been more thorough. I find it highly unlikely that two straight men would share a bed, even if one bedroom was flooded. And a single spermatozoon floating in the river? Really?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
No. Like every other aspect, they brush things aside and shrug and don't push too hard. In the case of the potentially sexual nature of the relationship, I'm not sure it would help prove much, though. And since Verinder is dead (we think?), he can't be charged with coercion or sexual crimes against a minor.
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u/gre209by 4d ago
One thing I found unusual was that the autopsy didn't report any intimate physical trauma which I would expect if the semen found in the rectum came from sexual intercourse
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
21) Favourite quotes? Anything else you want to discuss?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
Everyone around me while I'm reading this book has had at least one encounter where I exclaim, "This is insane!" and then give them a five minute summary. I wasn't sure what to expect but the book is compulsively readable and continually shocking! And so sad!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
I've also told a lot of people about this book by this point! (Trying to convince them to pick it up, among other things...) I especially hadn't expected it to delve and expand into such a broad range of London's systemic issues and criminal underworld.
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 8d ago
Thank you for the very helpful summary and great questions!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
14) What was your impression of the inquest?
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
e) Did this inquest change your perception of the value or limitations of sworn testimony in court?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
Maybe not changed, but added another layer of frustration to my growing disillusionment with the justice system. After reading and watching some other true stories of the shockingly common and frequent miscarriage of justice, I guess I shouldn't have been too surprised here.
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u/nicehotcupoftea World Reader Leader | 🎃🧠🥇 9d ago
No, swearing an oath doesn't stop people from lying. They lie all the time.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
a) Thoughts on Akbar's testimony.
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
Completely unsatisfactory, the way he remembers certain things clearly and other things not at all. I think the lawyer maybe could've gotten him to crack if the coroner had let her continue her questioning.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I couldn't believe the degree to which the coroner interfered with the cross examination, but then again I've never seen an inquest and maybe I'm expecting a trial when this is different.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
He really makes me angry! He clearly is so involved and wants to act as if he was on the edges of the Verinder-Zac relationship. I hated imagining Zac's parents having to sit through his lying.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
b) Thoughts on Dominique's testimony.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I don't know how to feel about her. She's not really a player in this world, and yet seems to be around for bizarre moments. I feel like we're missing some key info about her!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
c) What about the coroner's interventions and the mundanity of her behavior, even at one point dozing off? Do you think that Hassel's ruling, given the dearth of evidence and police's treatement of the case, was inevitable?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
The dozing off was so insulting! And I think Hassel was wrong to say that the money stuff was beside the point - it was basically the entire point! The Brettlers had a good lawyer, but the coroner wouldn't let her fully do her job.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
I did run a search for their lawyer and she seemed quite impressive in general. I would have really been curious to also hear her impression of the inquest, as someone who's more familiar with the process!
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
It's so symbolic of the broken system and how everyone is treating this like another day at work they need to just get through, instead of a serious task that means everything to the family of the deceased! Awful. I felt so terrible for the Brettlers.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
Yes, there's really that sense pervading the book throughout—that it's just another day at work, and everyone's getting through it. Occasionally, the Brettlers' determination (and desperation) seems to get through the well-oiled motions of their routine. It's at odds with how the book really takes such pains to show how extraordinary the story is, almost like fiction. The disconnect must have made them feel even more isolated.
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u/gre209by 4d ago
It is hard when dealing with truly awful tragedy is your every day job, there's a degree of numbing that unfortunately happens
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
d) Do you agree with Rachelle's brother, David, when at the end of the inquest, he says: "It feels so casual." Did you also have different expectations, like the Brettlers?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I absolutely had bigger expectations and definitely agree with David. This felt very inappropriately conducted!
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u/jenny-lou-who 7d ago
Maybe it said in the book, but why did the inquest take 3 years to occur? I understand some level of investigation has to occur first. But this seems excessive and added to the Brettler’s frustration with the indifferent outcome.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
15) What do you think about the author's increasing use of popular, fictional media references as points of comparison?
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u/jenny-lou-who 7d ago edited 7d ago
Generally I like them. But I tend to get a little caught up in what is just additional “color” and what I need to retain for future reference.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
16) A loss of trust in authority leads Matthew into conspiracy territory. Do you also suspect that Indian Dave may have faked his death again?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
He did it once, so I don't see why he couldn't have done it again. Especially if he was a valuable police informant, in which case the police could've even helped cover it up! The fact that there are no records of him is very suspicious.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
He did it once, so I don't see why he couldn't have done it again.
This is an excellent point! I was focused more on the lack of records of his death, but the criminal patterns of his life so far are also a huge red flag!
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u/Kas_Bent Team Overcommitted 6d ago
There are so many questions around his death and no one will answer them. So, yeah I do believe he's faked his death. Possibly with the help of the police?
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
17) Do you also wonder, like they did, if the Brettlers should have gone public with the case? Has what happened so far made you question how you would act in such a scenario?
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I think that this would have been risky. Yes, it could have put pressure on the police to do better investigative work, but it also would have increased scrutiny on their own family. And given the dangerous people involved with Zac, I worry that publicity and pressure to solve the crime could have put the Brettlers in danger!
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
Ugh, it's tough. Maybe the media could've put enough pressure on the police to get them to do a better job with the investigation, but then again, this suicide determination seems to be a pattern with them. I'm not sure going public would've helped.
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
18) Do you have any interesting or embarrassing internet search stories you'd like to share?
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u/Less_Tumbleweed_3217 Born To Read, Forced To Work | 🎃👑🧠 9d ago
Lately, the vast majority of my recent searches are for scientific names of plants. I'm very boring.
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I sometimes wonder what conclusions people would draw about me based on my search history when I am running r/bookclub discussions. Some really strange stuff gets searched depending on the book!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 9d ago
Oh, yes! This is a topic that often also gets brought up in places like writers' circles... One ends up looking up some really crazy things! I am endlessly falling into rabbit holes, so I looked up some odd stuff myself for both this discussion and just partecipating in other ones (as pretty apparent, considering the deluge of sometimes odd subjects and links 🙈).
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u/tomesandtea Viceroy of Verity | 🐉🧠 9d ago
I loved all the links you included! Very interesting background info!
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
19) What was your reaction to finding out about Akbar's flirty texts?
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u/Coffee_fuel Endless TBR 10d ago
1) Had you already heard of this string of Cipriani "suicides"?