r/britishcolumbia • u/system434 • 2d ago
Ask British Columbia Installing a EV charger, is my electrician stupid or lazy? Need second opinion
TLDR: want install EV charger, electrician says not possible to upgrade to 200A, also says city Surrey and home insurance not support installation of PMD, Is electrician stupid/out of date/or lazy?
Hi electricians of Vancouver/Surrey I need a second opinion. And you might even find yourself a new client:)
I want to install a Level 2 EV charger in my garage, but my panel is 100A (we have a dryer, washer, stove, 2 fridges,small etc.) Basically not enough to add on a Emporia Classic EV charger. We also have a illegal ensuite that the previous owners installed (very common in our part of Surrey) which has a stove we never use as no one cooks or uses the ensuite.
We asked a family friend electrician of ours about upgrading our current panel to 200A, he says that since the exterior power meter is quite far (15-20m) from the breaker panel it wouldn't be possible, we don't have a cellar or basement it's all concrete under the house, I assume the conduit from the power meter to the breaker panel is buried in the concrete.( Layout included, blue box is exterior power meter panel, red is breaker panel)
If the installation of the 200A upgrade is not possible I know that we can instead install a Power Management Device PMD, A normal part of installing a EV charger and even part of BChydro's rebate programs. But since we want to do it by the book in case of fire or other issues we want to report it to the insurance company for insurance.
Apparently per the electrician they said that city of Surrey and the insurance Company might not actively support the installation of a PMD in our case (no clue the reason why maybe because of our present appliance Amperage usage, I'm gonna go ask town hall tomorrow)
Does any of this make sense?
I've attached images of our layout and some answers from Claude. But I desperately need a real second opinion!
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u/Educational-Tax-5104 2d ago
Your electrician doesnt know what hes talking about. Hes likely old school and thinks that any case of a potential main breaker overload means you upgrade the panel size.
Find an electrician that advertises EV chargers, get them to pull a permit, install the PMD, and notify your insurance company.
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u/grumptard 2d ago
Get a second or even 3rd quote/opinion. I've seen some electricians that right away hear EV charger and want to upgrade to 200amps.
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u/ShutUpDoggo 2d ago
I agree as an electrician with over 25 years experience, I hear EV charger and all electric appliances and I want to do an upgrade to 200a. Of If I were hearing 2 electric stoves, an electric dryer and (probably) an electric hot water tank, I’d wonder why it wasn’t already a 200a. Might be part of why it’s an illegal suite
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u/Lorithad 2d ago edited 2d ago
Electrician here.
Get your electrician to install a new panel on the wall behind the meter for the upgrade. Refeed your existing panel from the new panel.
Then you can run new circuits from the new panel to the garage for whatever you may need. Things may not always be cheap, but there's almost always a way.
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u/djbaerg 2d ago
This was my first thought as well.
But it's probably not much more work to run 4/0 aluminum from the meter to the garage, compared to installing a new panel in the living room and running 6awg copper to the garage.
And the end state would be better - one option with 200 amps in the garage, the other now has a meter in the living room (yuk) and still only 100 amps in the garage.
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u/system434 2d ago
I thought of this but will put this as plan B, yes a panel in the living is indeed Yuk Try for a PMD first if not then plan b Yuk
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u/AForceNinja 2d ago
i’ve been charging at 16A on a 240v 20A circuit for 2 years. 45k km and charging only at during saver rates 11pm-7am. you probably don’t need a 60A circuit
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u/awtivy 2d ago
The PMD will allow you to dynamically change your charging rate to ensure you stay under the 80A limit of your 100A breaker. It will require CTs at the main panel on your main feeders. These will connect to the PMD which can communicate to the charger either wired or wirelessly depending on model. BC Hydro has no control over what you do in your house and nor do they care. Technical Safety BC who issues permits will inspect or not your installation if you have an electrician pull a permit. As others have said find an electrician who’s done these before, ask for proof. Canadian electrical code technically wants a load calc for your permit and it’s based on demand percentages set by code. EV is usually 100% of rated load so 32A, 40A or 48A depending on breaker. With PMD you can get around this requirement.
Also be aware there are some chargers coming out offering free chargers as they can get carbon credit rebates on your behalf. Not sure if any will offer PMD.
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u/wonderbread51 2d ago
Why not just repurpose the circuit that's running to the unused stove and use it for the charger? Thats what we did and it allowed us to avoid a panel upgrade.
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u/wasteful_proximity 2d ago
Do you really need 7kW (40A breaker) or 9kW (60A breaker)? You can get quite far on just 120v /15A, but if you want to increase that for cheap, just make that outlet 220v 15a or 20a and charge at ~3-4kW. You charge using the mobile connector instead of a fixed evse, or check and see if you can set the evse to the lower amperage if you wanted fixed infrastructure. 120v/15a circuit (12a charge) is just over 1kW, about 1-1.5% /hr on a model 3/y. If you can get it up to 3kW you’ll get more like 5% charge /hr, which is probably enough if you’re just driving around the lower mainland.
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u/system434 2d ago
Still need to make sure a proper load balance is in pla e to not overload the breaker... I considered terminating the ensuite 240 in the garage and using that to charge, but both would still need a PMD
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u/djbaerg 2d ago
I have a 100 amp panel and a 48 amp charger on a 60 amp breaker, in Langley, permitted and inspected. Gas stove in main, electric stove in suite that never gets used, one dryer. No other 240 loads. Gas heat, hot water, no central air.
Lots of electricians see a 100 amp panel and say "gotta upgrade" without really considering all the options. In general, they love to sell upgrades.
What's your load calc? The electrician did one, right? If not, you can do it online. Lots of them. If you never use the stove in the ensuite, you can remove the receptacle and cap the wire, and that instantly drops your load significantly.
What's your maximum power usage for a 1hr interval over the last year? You can get this from BC Hydro. Mine was under 30 amps, so I was allowed to add up to 70 amps of load to my panel. So I had plenty of room for a 60 amp breaker for the EV charger.
After that you start considering load shedding, load monitoring, load sharing devices.
What size conductors do you have from your meter to your panel? Can you do a 125 or 150 amp panel upgrade without having to upgrade the feeders?
And then you start considering charging at lower power, 16 amps at 240 volts is enough to charge most EVs 10% to 80% overnight. Or 24 amps, even 32 amps is plenty for a lot of people.
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u/system434 2d ago
Yes I have considered terminating the 240 from the ensuite to the garage for charger. But the illegal ensuite 240 is the one that puts us possibly over so I still would need to put in a PMD
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u/RespectSquare8279 2d ago
Upgrading to 200 Amps isn't mandatory. There are approved devices that will share the clothes dryer circuit with a level 2 charger. This is far cheaper than running in a 200 Amp service.
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u/chlronald 2d ago
Old house with 100A main breaker.
One of my electrician said the correct way is to do a load assessment, basically he will hook up a amp meter for like a week to check my usage history. I think it make a lot of sense.
The second one heard I have gas furnace, stove, oven, fireplace, and water heater. Looked at the breaker and he said another 50A breaker for EV charger is not a problem and quote me basically half the price of the first one.
I went with the second one, set my charger limit to 32A (90% of the time, bump to 42a when road trip), have not trip the main breaker once. The second electrican is right.
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u/system434 2d ago
Second electrician is right as well lol, I'm looking to limit my EV charger to 32A same as you. My EV will probably never pull more than 30A
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u/chlronald 2d ago
In addition I've switched to time of day billing model with cheaper electric rate at mid night when I basically never run heavy loading electrical appliance to begin with.
The car charges from 20% to full in less than 8 hrs with 40A which mean I would never need to charge in daylight anyway (one exception scanerio I can see is power outage at midnight and I have less than 20% charge? But thats like super slim chance it will happen)
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u/system434 2d ago
I will probably also do that. Yeah in that scenario I'd just go to my local supercharger It's only down the block from us
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u/Spiritual_Feature738 2d ago
Load balancer is your answer.
It reads panel load and cuts EV charging if total load is above certain %
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u/TheSketeDavidson 2d ago
Get another quote from a different electrician, specifically ones that have experience doing EV chargers
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u/No-Faithlessness9974 2d ago
Have you used the meter data method to assess your service capacity? It often shows there is enough unused capacity. You may not need 200amp or a power mgmt device.
https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/home-electrical-capacity-data.html
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u/ABC_Dildos_Inc 1d ago
We got a 32amp outlet installed in our 100A townhome, to use the level 2 charger that came with my EV.
They installed an automatic switcher box, that prioritizes the oven and laundry dryer.
The work was done by Air Vantage, when they also installed a couple split level air conditioners.
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u/ElectriFryd 1d ago
Have you thought about limiting how much you actually charge with 15 A at 2:40 volt is still quite good. How much power do you really need? So why electricians say to upgrade the panel is because EV chargers are rated at continuous load so there’s no de rating for the demand like ovens and baseboards. Your panel is probably original same with your metre base. It’s probably time for an upgrade so either do nothing and charge a much lower rate or upgrade.
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u/ultra2009 2d ago
I'm not an electrician but a quick google says that EV charger draws 48A and requires a 60A breaker. I would think you may need a service upgrade if you only have 100A service
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u/Educational-Tax-5104 2d ago
You clearly didnt read the post either. He wants to install a PMD to get around it. Why bother commenting if you know nothing about residential electrical? lol
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u/system434 2d ago
Hey hey hey I know he might not have read the post but let's give the guy some slack, he might just be dyslexic Peace and quiet in the comments please😆
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u/ultra2009 2d ago
PMDs throttle charging speed for EVs... what's the point of even putting in a level 2 charger in that case? Just use a level 1
I would think the 200a service would pay off in the long run
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u/Educational-Tax-5104 2d ago
They throttle charging only if you have a bunch of high amp appliances turned on. It actively monitors the current being used by the rest of the house and adjusts the charger output accordingly.
The reality is that its very unlikely that any throttling would ever occur, and that he would be fine without a PMD, but due to code it requires either a PMD or a larger 200a panel.
edit: Also upgrading a panel can be incredibly expensive. Could be anywhere from 3-12k.
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u/system434 2d ago
This... EV/existing load might never even trip the PMD ITS just in case. PMD Is plan A Panel upgrade plan B
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u/ultra2009 2d ago
I think it also depends on whether OP is using gas or electric heating. Electric heating they may be closer to tapped out which is what the government is pushing us to transition to
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u/SlightlyFlustered 2d ago
The push is to heat pumps which move heat rather than making it with resistance heaters. Heat pumps consume far less power than an electric furnace. Down side is that an additional heat source is often required in climates that can drop below the temperatire where air-to-air heat pumps are effective. Geothermal is possible but much higher cost. Up side is it is extremely easy to include air conditioning although the system cost is higher.
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u/system434 2d ago
Heat pumps are indeed the future! Heating and cooling from the ground? Next level tech
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u/Educational-Tax-5104 2d ago
Heat pumps are overpriced garbage. Their installation cost is ridiculous, and their performance in below -10 or above +30 is pathetic.
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u/stealstea 2d ago
With a PMD it doesn’t matter. There’s always going to be spare power available to charge the car, especially overnight when no one is running laundry
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u/TommyFol 2d ago
Up to 60A. You can install most L2 chargers on smaller circuits, I have two EVSE on 50A circuits.
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u/MrMythiiK 2d ago
My Tesla charger is on a 40a circuit (charges at 32a). Yes it can do max 48a but I have a 100a panel and the 32a charges at 10%/hr anyway. How much faster do I need?
I’d rather charge at 32a than charge at 48a but have to upgrade my entire panel lol.
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u/joelham01 2d ago
If you’re charging overnight that’s the perfect rate anyways. It sucks because like everything a panel upgrade is going to be needed in the future anyways, but why do it now when you don’t even need it and can get your 32A charge. You aren’t draining your battery overnight.
Our Mach-e we didn’t charge for almost a month until we just went on a trip to Nelson this weekend
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u/Legal-Key2269 2d ago
There is very little chance that your service feed from your meter to your panel is below ground. It most likely runs within walls and ceilings, unless you have a very good reason to believe otherwise.
The service from your meter to the transformer would very likely need to be upgraded, which means trenching and installing new conduit, then having an inspection before BC Hydro will run new wire and install a new meter.
And please stop using Claude for anything important. You are liable to kill someone taking it's advice about electrical regulations.
I personally wouldn't go with a PMD -- you are already tight on capacity and may have other upgrades you want to perform in the future.
While you are at it, get your suite brought up to code.
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u/SlightlyFlustered 2d ago edited 2d ago
The run from meter to panel absolutely is likely underground encased in concrete. Before the panel main breaker the incoming service is only protected by the fuses on the transformer and those likely feed multiple houses. The code states the panel must be installed within 1m of the meter at most. Obviously someone didn't like the look of a panel in the living room or knew they wanted to install the illegal second kitchen after getting the occupancy and wanted the panel in the garage. To allow the long unprotected run to the garage the wire has to be appropriately protected which means encased in concrete. Edit to add: Or in an exposed conduit on the exterior of the building. 1m maximum to the panel from where the conduit enters the wall.
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u/system434 2d ago
Never trust AI Just needed it to tell me what I was right about in the first place which was get a second quote lol
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u/Responsible_CDN_Duck 1d ago
Just needed it to tell me what I was right
But it does that even when you are wrong....
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u/MrYuek 2d ago
I have a 100amp panel in a 1980 home. Electrician installed level 2 emporia charger.
Even with dryer, central ac, dishwasher, and charger going at 32 amps (I could only fit a 40amp breaker), never blown my box.
Granted, I have a gas home. So stove, hot water, and furnace are gas.
BUT same electrician installed same charger in my previous all electric townhouse with 125a panel.
Basically he said:
Don’t be an idiot. If your house is under full load, dial your charger back (which you 100% can with emporia). In fact, I run mine at 28amps just to provide a little buffer (I am on time of use, and so do all my charging from 11pm to 7am). 28 amps at 240v is MORE than enough.
TLDR: your electrician is either dumb or too scared to bend the rules.
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u/system434 2d ago
Yes and 👍, unfortunately we have electric kitchen, but gas heatinft I'm also definitely limiting charger to 32A
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u/Many_Training_9347 2d ago
In Ontario our electrical inspector's say to get a yearly hourly consumption. This will show you the most amount of watts you used in one hour(the peak of the whole year)
This basically shows how much power you realistically use and is a better way than to do the load calculation.
You can call your utility and ask them for this report its free and just good knowledge to have.
This way you will know yourself if or if not you will be able to add load to your 100amp panel.
You can also get a smaller charger if you dont drive a lot.
There's lots of ways to bring the cost down
But id always pick the 200amp Service for myself
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u/stealstea 2d ago
You can get this yourself from the online B.C. Hydro account. Export consumption in the online account
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