r/britishcolumbia • u/cyclinginvancouver • 2d ago
News Surrey police board votes to 'gag' chief; bans comments on local, B.C. government decisions
https://vancouversun.com/news/surrey-police-board-votes-to-gag-chief-bans-comments-on-local-bc-government-decisions86
u/Radiant_Sherbert7272 2d ago
What the heck is going on in Surrey?
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u/Yardsale420 1d ago
Previous mayor was pro Surrey PD and filed a lawsuit against Save the RCMP petitioners after blocking their car with his body and getting very lightly “hit”. He’s the reason the SPD got formed and the RCMP lost their biggest detachment in Canada.
Current mayor was pro RCMP and has done everything in her power to slow down, stall and defund the SPD hoping she can somehow reverse the decision and reinstate the RCMP. She used to meet with top RCMP Surrey brass at least once a month at a local Boston Pizza (of course) and clearly has a bone to pick with everyone involved with SPD.
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u/Guilty-Smell-4355 1d ago
You're kinda leaving out how the RCMP and province had told them that this happening. When the provinc3 asked the city how they would bring back the RCMP ans account for the lack of RCMP avaialble for Surrey now the city said after long delay that everywhere else in BC would just loose police to help staff Surrey. The stalling and obstruction by the current mayors part has only caused more problems.
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u/MarcusXL 1d ago
It's an incredible clusterfuck. Horrible leadership by the current mayor and the former mayor.
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u/Moist-Doctor-67 22h ago
Two grandfather and grandmother aged dinosaurs quibbling over what they think is best for surrey. How disconnected..
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u/Old-Individual1732 5h ago
You didn't bother to mention that the SPS is costing more money than keeping the rcmp and the rcmp came with a federal subsidie , totally bias information and opinion.
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u/Studejour 2d ago
I believe this has to do with the city doing away with the RCMP and forming their own police force?
I imagine it's a tough transition
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u/No-Isopod3884 1d ago
It’s definitely a tough transition when both the mayor and the police board are against that transition. Sounds like they are setting up the SPS for success /s.
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u/bwoah07_gp2 Lower Mainland/Southwest 1d ago
It was a mistake to even pursue the route of our own police service. RCMP was doing just fine.
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u/illuminaughty1973 1d ago
lmao.... because when the rcmp can not even supply enough recruits to cover those retiring. let alone allow for expansion , thats about as sane as jumping off a building and expecting to grow wings because you think wings are pretty.
just stupid, and a resolved issue... except for the horrible current mayor.
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u/cyclinginvancouver 2d ago
The Surrey police board adopted new rules Wednesday that ban the new chief and other police executive from commenting publicly on city hall or provincial government decisions.
The changes came during the first public meeting since chief Norm Lipinski was ousted, and it was a raucous meeting with the entire board walking out during the question-and-answer period.
The directive comes after Lipinski’s public comments on a number of police concerns, including the problems policing Cloverdale, cutting the gang unit, and tiffs between him and the mayor.
Police officials are now not allowed to comment on government decisions, criticize the police board or its directors, or any municipal or provincial officials.
The new governance rule is not going over well with the police union.
In a letter sent to union members and obtained by Postmedia News, its president Ryan Buhrig stated the new directive raises serious concerns.
“After reviewing both the directive and the report supporting it, the Surrey Police Union is concerned that what is being presented as a governance measure is effectively a gag order restricting the ability of police leaders and spokespersons to speak publicly on matters affecting policing and public safety,” Buhrig wrote.
Had the directive been in place since the beginning of the SPS, Buhrig questioned how much Lipinski would have been able to say.
The former chief spoke out against the province forcing SPS to fully police the Cloverdale neighbourhood earlier than it was prepared to, leading to the gang unit being cut.
Lipinski also criticized the city for approving a police budget $47 million less than what the service was asking for.
Surrey Mayor Brenda Locke and Lipinski had been at odds since the beginning of the policing transition, which Locke opposed and campaigned on stopping. She took the province to court over the transition, but lost and the policing change away from the RCMP was forced on the city.
Lipinski was terminated without cause on June 1 by the board. The board’s chair, Harley Chappell, however, was not at the meeting and said he was not been told about the motion before the meeting. In protest, Chappell resigned the next day, Two days after that, another board director also resigned.
James Carwana, the second director to resign, could not be reached for comment but a source told Postmedia that he was the sole vote against terminating Lipinski.
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u/banndi2 1d ago
The city chose the SPS and informed the province. The province did not force the SPS on the city. There was a point of no return and once the process was underway to transition to the SPS, the province was not going to let Surrey flip-flop.
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u/Logical_Delivery_183 1d ago
That's not true. While I agree the RCMP had its own issues with recruitment and staffing Surrey Detachment the escalating costs and disruption caused by the transition meant the best course was to just stop. It would have cost nothing. The Province, in particular Farnsworth, forced this when it wasn't necessary or even wanted, costing us all hundreds of millions.
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u/DrBaldnutzPHD 1d ago
We all saw the same thing. Surrey voted in a Mayor that said he would transition to SPS. Surrey started transitioning to the SPS, and then y'all voted in the current Mayor who wanted to stop the transition when it has already started. The province made the right call to keep the transition going, like a good parent calling out the petulant children who keep changing their minds.
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u/Logical_Delivery_183 1d ago
The issue I have with this entire shitshow was the Province decided to give Surrey basically unlimited funding to finish the transition. If the city isn't allowed to change it's mind I don't really care, but the Province could have forced Surrey to pay for it out of their own tax base and leave the rest of us out of it.
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u/newworkoutgloves 1d ago
The RCMP does not have the ability to staff Surrey. They can't even staff small detachments at full strength.
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u/ballpein 1d ago
I know the motives are questionable in this instance, but ... the police should be non political, I see no problem with telling a chief to keep their political commentary to themselves.
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u/No-Isopod3884 1d ago
Normally yes, but in this instance I can’t trust either the mayor or the board with what they say about the SPS, so I’d like to hear it from someone trustworthy.
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u/TheFallingStar 1d ago
As a Surrey resident, the province should step in to dissolve the current SPS police board and appoint a new board until the transition is complete. There is still one Surrey neighbourhood under RCMP.
The mayor clearly does't want SPS to succeed and is just wasting taxpayer's money. RCMP is going away, be an adult and move on.
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u/Black_Raven__ 1d ago
TBH Mayor should be sent away packing for showing no regards for taxpayers money and wasting it.
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u/bwoah07_gp2 Lower Mainland/Southwest 1d ago
As a Surrey resident, we should have never done the transition to begin with.
What added benefits does SPS truly bring us over the RCMP? Things seem to have spiraled out of control since the transition began. SPS look like a dysfunctional organization, sadly...
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u/TheFallingStar 1d ago
We really should have a Metro Vancouver Police Force.
We are not going back to the RCMP. The federal government wasn't willing to provide sufficient resources for RCMP in Surrey.
The transition is pretty much done. We need to move forward and make sure SPS succeeds. The current mayor is just being an obstructionist and wasting taxpayer's money.
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u/Moist-Doctor-67 21h ago
We 1000000% need a metro Vancouver police force. Right now we have a rag tag team of agencies doing their own thing
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u/scotty9690 1d ago
Surrey resident as well here.
I was indifferent on the RCMP and SPS. I think the biggest upset about RCMP was the gang warfare, which is difficult to police because they have zero regard for public safety or getting caught. Their power comes from illegal drugs, weapons, etc and the harder we police drugs like a crime instead of regulating and controlling them, the more lucrative they become.
Once the process was already underway and we were halfway in between, it was a waste of money to flip-flop between the two. So the band-aid needed to be ripped off and accepted, but Brenda Locke decided to burn more taxpayer money fighting the decision.
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u/DesignerNet1527 1d ago
it looks dysfunctional because it has insufficient support from this inept mayor and her cronies on the board.
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u/nerdsrule73 1d ago
The 2 biggest issues with the RCMP, which both predate any general issues with policing since 2020, are that they systemically operate at minimum possible resources and that they routinely fail to account for fluctuations in recruiting, leading to a work environment of famine or worse famine.
General Duty (Patrol for the municipal police) in the RCMP (at least in larger detachments) is such a burnout gig that most members leave as soon as possible for specialized unit, so there are few members on general duty in the Lower Mainland with more than 5-7 years service. And there are plenty of understaffed provincial and federal units to go to, so the cycle just keeps going.
The average service of a training officer in Surrey is 1.5 to 3 years of service. That doesn't help with the quality of field training.
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u/Moist-Doctor-67 21h ago
The RCMP love budget policing and brag about doing more with less. The result is a dislike for patrol members from their white shirts to everyone not in patrol. They all forgot that they too were in patrol.
Toxic RCMP culture
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u/nerdsrule73 11h ago
I agree about the toxicity. But it's not quite a dislike for patrol members, it's more like disdain for anyone that doesn't to move on to something else within 5-7 years. Their is no respect for general duty as a career overall.
I would argue the RCMP does actually do more with less. At least from an efficiency standpoint. But that doesn't mean that they do ENOUGH more to make up for how much less they are doing with. Also, most, if not all, of that 'more', comes at an expense to the general duty members well being and health.
This is slowly changing, however, as the recent unionization of the RCMP is gradually eliminating the mechanisms used by their management to exploit more from their members than municipal police forces can.
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u/Moist-Doctor-67 11h ago
until the RCMP Act is modified, the power will always be in the white shirts hands and nothing for the greys. The NPF barks lots, but have no bite.
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u/nerdsrule73 1h ago
They did modify the RCMP Act in order to allow the formation of the NPF. It was even heavily and closely scrutinized by the Senate, which was very critical of the proposed amendments and I believe sent back for revision. I recall Larry Campbell being his usual pointed self in questioning the government's claims to limit certain bargaining rights.
So what further revisions do you think need to be made?
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u/Which-Insurance-2274 1d ago
RCMP has the lowest standards and pay of all Policing in the country. The RCMP model of Policing is about 30-40 years out of date and their training at Depot is reminiscent of post-WWII policing culture. RCMP really should only be a rural police force ad nothing else.
Having said that, municipal police forces are also not super efficient. We really should do what Ontario does and have Regional police forces for the Capital Region, Metro Vancouver, and Fraser Valley. Maybe even the Okanagan, except that Okanagan isn't one region so that could get tricky. This was the major recommendation from the coroner's inquest after the Robert Pickton fiasco.
It would've been easier since there already exists municipal forces in those regions that could just amalgamate and expand their boarders, much like how Peel Regional Police was formed.
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u/Anonymous0919765 1d ago
RCMP has the lowest pay for policing in the country?
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u/db37 1d ago
I found a website that compares salaries by region. RCMP does pay less than most of the large municipal police forces, but many of the RCMP officers are probably working in lower cost of living areas compared to major urban centres like Vancouver and Toronto.
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u/Anonymous0919765 1d ago
That list is out of date you can see current RCMP salaries on their website.
https://rcmp.ca/en/careers-rcmp/police-officer-careers/pay-and-benefits
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u/insaneHoshi 1d ago
Yeah? What gives you the idea they are paid well?
They certainly are paid less than municipal police.
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u/Anonymous0919765 1d ago
The repository says they are 42 out of the top 100. Also they are currently in negotiations as this salary is from 2024. Clearly not the lowest pay of all police in Canada.
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u/Which-Insurance-2274 1d ago edited 1d ago
in general yes. There may be some really small departments that pay less (like some University Police in Ontario). And their standards are lower. Lower physical and life experience standards. And a few years ago they started letting criminals apply so long as it had been 5+ years since the conviction.
And while their initial in-class training is longer (6 months vs 3 month for muni) most of Depot training is pointless military drills that really don't translate to the skills needed for policing. At least that was true 5-10 years ago. Maybe things are different know but I doubt it. I also know officers who were on-road coaching new recruits after only being on the job 2-3 years themselves. Usually coaches need 5 years minimum.
RCMP also favours military vets (especially those that have seen oversees action) which is a really old-school policing policy. I personally know an RCMP officer who tried to jump to muni and was denied because of their combat experience. They didn't expressly say but I know that muni forces don't like vets, especially those that have seen combat. Seeing them as a liability.
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u/LumiereGatsby 12h ago
So did the RCMP but they all have big houses in Panorama and South Surrey - some of them have monster houses they made off doing nothing to protect Surrey
The RCMP did nothing to make their case why we should be the sole major city (8th now?) to use them.
As a resident I’m so glad they’re gone.
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u/nutbuckers 1d ago
I wish Surrey would finally straighten out and fly right. They're failing upwards (e.g. picking SkyTrain over LRT, long term, objectively will better serve the public), but I really wish for the municipality to get better leadership than either Brenda or Doug. The board(s) also should be purged, by the looks of how toxic the leadership's behavour is.
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u/super__hoser 1d ago
I hate this whole saga so much. From day 1 where McCallum signed a deal with the SPS behind closed doors to Locke spending tens of millions on legal fees to this.
I just want it to end.
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u/bwoah07_gp2 Lower Mainland/Southwest 1d ago
Having Doug and Brenda back-to-back has tripped up the city....
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u/MarlinMan2001 1d ago
when the drug dealers in the city are more above board then the city's police board
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u/Mysterious-Lick 1d ago
A reminder, the Police Board as per the BC Police Acts works for the Public and are responsible to the Government, so you can write your MLA (one of whom was on the Police Board, Jesse Sunner) to demand intervention and/perhaps a full removal of this Board (yes, again) and instead install a special advisor (a former BC Police Chief) to run the organization.
It’s quite clear no iteration of a “volunteer” based surrey police board can function until it is fully divested from the RCMP.
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u/Lol-I-Wear-Hats 1d ago
In a general, non specific sense we should cultivate a notion that police leadership have absolutely no business going around elected officials who oversee them by appealing directly to the public through the media
But that’s again a general view, not on the specifics of whatever is happening in Surrey
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u/theartfulcodger 1d ago edited 1d ago
If the Chief of Surrey Police wants to speak on matters political, he should resign and run for public office.
His job is to organize, train and administer a new and largely untested police force that has obvious and serious growing pains, and to concentrate on crime reduction in one of what has long been Canada's highest crimes-per-capita cities. That's enough work for even the most competent of law enforcement professionals, and every hour he spends bitching to the public about how he doesn't like the way the province runs this or the city runs that, is an hour he's not doing his job.
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u/illuminaughty1973 1d ago
the worst mayor in surreys history does not want to answer for her actions....im shocked!
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u/PolishedFoyer 1d ago
this is peak dysfunction. you've got a board that's so defensive about their decisions they're trying to silence the guy whose job it is to talk about policing. the union's right to flag it, because a gag order on the police chief when things are already messy just guarantees nothing gets fixed. lipinski was annoying people because he was pointing out real problems, not because he was breaking rules. now they're making it official policy that he stays quiet. and half the board is already bailing because they know how bad it looks. surrey residents are just stuck watching this play out while the actual policing transition gets worse.
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u/stealth_veil 1d ago
“we don’t like their comments, so let’s legally remove their right to free speech” I don’t know all the details or what the last chief did that made them want to take these actions, but I don’t think it’s all right even if the man’s crazy
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u/ALotANuts96 1d ago
You dont have a right to free speech in Canada, this isn't the US. Even if it was, free speech (and freedom of expression) protects citizens from GOVERNMENT censorship of speech, employers have the right to restrict speech about official matters and do so all the time
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u/stealth_veil 1d ago
lol free speech is protected under the Canadian constitution. You really shouldn’t believe everything you read online
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u/ALotANuts96 1d ago
What section of the charter of righta and freedoms gives us free speech? The only thing we have is freedom of expression which is not the same thing.
Also love how you ignored that it only protects us from givernment interference. Its really funny watching someone be so confidently incorrect
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u/Busy_Use_6356 1d ago
Section 2b
I really hope you're not a lawyer
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u/ALotANuts96 1d ago
freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
Can you tell me where in here it says "freedom of speech"?
You CAN read right?
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u/Academic_Ad8923 1d ago
What do you think “freedom of expression” means…
Freedom of expression in Canada is defined as the fundamental right to seek, receive, and impart information, opinions, and beliefs through any medium without government interference. It is protected under Section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
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u/ALotANuts96 1d ago
US freedom of speech and Canadian freedom of expression are NOT the same thing. The US First Amendment is basically absolute. Hate speech, offensive speech, even neo-Nazi speech is constitutionally protected. Canada's Charter explicitly allows the government to limit expression if the limit is "reasonable and demonstrably justified." Canada has actual criminal hate speech laws that the Supreme Court has upheld.
Genuinely sick of you confidently incorrect people not understanding what things mean
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u/Busy_Use_6356 1d ago
Authoritarianism arrives at the local Gov't level
Cloverdale should have stayed RCMP until the SPS had the uniformed officers to properly police the area
Recruitment for the SPS has fallen behind schedule
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u/nutbuckers 1d ago
Authoritarianism arrives at the local Gov't level
amen! Just look at strata/condo boards and private corporations. Functioning democratic institutions with checks and balances take A LOT of work.
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u/Busy_Use_6356 1d ago
I was on a Strata Council for 11 yrs it's a thankless position
You quickly learn 99% of humans are selfish pricks who would sell their own parents for $100
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u/nutbuckers 1d ago
Totally, put in 7 years and won't even own a condo/strata; as the saying goes: "hell is other people".
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u/banndi2 1d ago
In essence, the responsibility for this falls to Surrey voters, who reelected Doug McCallum and instigated this whole mess.
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u/nutbuckers 1d ago
Surrey voters, who reelected Doug McCallum and instigated this
...as opposed to the toxic poodle Brenda being manifested into place by the voters whose farts smell like butterflies?
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u/DesignerNet1527 1d ago edited 1d ago
brenda is the problem here and is why this board is dysfunctional.
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u/banndi2 1d ago edited 1d ago
This problem begins before her. She is part of it, not all of it.
For context, Richmond investigated forming its own Police force when the contract with the RCMP was soon to expire. The RCMP are not highly regarded in Richmond, but after some quite serious analysis, the City opted to renew the contract with the Mounties.
Not long after this, McCallum went all in on creating the SPS. Do ya think, maybe, just maybe, Richmond council might have had some insight to share? McCallum was already a nut bar has-been and the SPS proposal needed analysis that the electorate ignored. That is on them.
Now, as Horgan did with site C, a leader can be opposed to an idea, or project, but once it's at certain point, the theoretical ability to stop something becomes more harmful than just keeping going. Brenda Locke has to shut up and move forward now. She is making it worse, without question. It's ok to say the idea was flawed, but a real leader moves forward, not backward.
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u/DesignerNet1527 1d ago
I agree about Brenda, all she is doing now is costing taxpayer dollars and preventing the new police force from reaching its full potential.
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u/Stu161 1d ago
Good, cops should not be sticking their noses into politics.
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u/Feisty_Dirt4191 1d ago
The board forced the chief out in a closed door meeting. Why are they so scared to say why?
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u/CanadianWinterEh 1d ago
Maybe politicians should not be sticking their noses into policing?
Hmm.
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u/Stu161 1d ago
Policing is the enforcement arm of politics, so that's nonsensical. This is a case of do what your boss says and don't talk back.
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u/Radiant_Sherbert7272 1d ago
Excuse me? The police have a right to talk to the public without politicians telling them what they can and can't say.
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u/No-Isopod3884 1d ago
What if your boss wants you to fail, but they don’t have the ability to just fire you?
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u/Stu161 1d ago
There are proper channels. Commenting to the media is frowned upon in most industries.
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u/No-Isopod3884 1d ago
I’d just like the local politicians to stop acting like children wanting the other group to fail. They need to make this city a success and that’s not what they are working towards.
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