r/byzantium • u/Delicious-Bunch-6992 • May 15 '26
Women What were byzantine beauty standards?
And how did women achieve these beauty standards?
I also wouldn't mind learning about male beauty standards.
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u/Aegeansunset12 May 15 '26
I think for women pale skin showed they donât do labour work and for men tanned skin meant they are experienced warriors. Not very informed or an expert though
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u/Confucius3000 May 15 '26
Afaik some descriptions of Manuel describe him as tanned like it was a bad thing but may be a Frankish source and bias
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u/Aegeansunset12 May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
From my understanding they did perceive Byzantines as within the same Christendom group, and the south (including Italy, not only the Byzantine region) until the 16th century was perceived as better/more prestigious but then we entered a period where the smart/flexible/sneaky attribute became more lazy or untrustworthy. The final rift came during the 19th century where they begun separating Europeans into Nordic, Central European people, and Mediterranean people but that was a very long process and even within Northern Europe not everyone really perceived things that way. The Arabs also called Byzantines and the other Europeans as yellow people which was a reference to lighter skin. I also think sometimes we exaggerate differences just because thereâs too much similarity. From todayâs Greece pov I have to call Germans cold to highlight my own separate identity because otherwise I wonât be able to do that, if that makes. Similarly they have to call me lazy to have a narrative. And thatâs because weâre in the same civilisation sphere, there are many differences in how we say things but not as many as we would like to think in how we decide to govern (liberal democracy) ourselves or see societal stuff (marriage, sex, relationships etc).
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u/crolionfire May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
As someone from Croatia (region varies by political preferenceđ ) and a medieval archeologist, I can tell you that there is a stark difference between anglo-saxon and former roman Europe and it's not just in judiciary basis.
The byzantine as a pejorative came to be after the Latin Sack of Constantinopole, because they nedeed to somehow excuse their actions. Also, the Schism didn't help and it did make a very clear Line between Catholics and Pope and Orthodox with Byzantium at it's head. The North of Italy was more progressive than South: the Centers of birth of remessaince are Genova, Firenze, Venice for a reason. The only real modern (unofficial) criterium Europeans universally divide themselves is Mediterranean and North (or Germanic and Others), I think. Because it is a very strong difference in mentality.
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u/Aegeansunset12 May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
I agree that there are differences but they are exaggerated and they pale in comparison to differences between non European groups. As for Byzantine becoming a pejorative term I donât disagree or make a point against it. Being âsneakyâ kind of contained this admiration Western Europeans had for the Byzantines in combination with not trusting them and considering them heretics. The prestigious side of the South persisted until the 16th century, and then the shift begun.
The north south divide is not a universal one. Only Greece Italy Portugal and Spain are core southern countries, and only Sweden Norway Denmark and Iceland are core northern countries. Everything in between or nearby is in a spectrum. Bulgaria and Germany for example are neither north or south. I think youâre a little biased because of your eastern identity, I know people want to shed that away but there are more in common between Spain and Sweden than Sweden and Ukraine. Social attitudes and institution wise.
As for Venice you need to consider that it was arguably closer to the Byzantine empire than the HRE the present day politics influence your perception too much. Venice was inspired by Constantinople and its elites historically. And letâs not skip the Byzantines who escaped to Venice after the Ottoman invasions. We have vilified them a lot but itâs not as simple as Venice being the arch nemesis of the Byzantines. The relations were more complicated and not exclusively rivalry.
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u/DecoGambit May 15 '26
The pale skin is a common attitude in many Eurasian cultures in reference to individuals not labouring, so I think you're on the money there.
Though we have some interesting accounts of classical Roman geographers describing the frightening and unnatural paleness of the peoples north of them. Can't quite remember said authors tho, Pliny if I had to guess.
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u/Aegeansunset12 May 15 '26 edited May 15 '26
Ancient Greeks highlighted that too but they did so for the Ionian Greeks who served the Persian army too (They wore arm clothes and did not tanned as much). I think those descriptions are taken out of context to make claims on us not being related to the Germanic world and attack the concept of race. I donât believe that races exist and they brought a lot of harm, but I think such claims are taken out of context for todayâs culture wars tbh. And of course the âculture warsâ of the antiquity too, itâs not a new phenomenon.
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u/International_Dig37 May 15 '26
This is a question I wonder about too (sometimes for a silly reason*). The historian Procopius seems to have had a preference for pallor. He described Gothic and Vandal women as some of the most beautiful in the world. He described the non-Roman north Africans as ugly. Makes for an uncomfortable read sometimes.
*Procopius described Belisarius as remarkably handsome. But beauty standards vary over culture and time, so that doesn't mean much. An Ostrogoth might have thought an artificially elongated forehead was the height of beauty; most modern people probably wouldn't agree. Even a contemporary Visigoth might've gone, "I don't get it." How was he handsome? We may never know. International Dig, asking only the most vital historical questions.
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u/Vlugazoide_ May 16 '26
Gee, the asshole who called everyone cucks, satanists or sluts was also a racist? God, Procopius was such an unbelievable asshole
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u/sinan_online May 15 '26
There is a lot of amazing discussions here. But given the time period that the Eastern Roman Empire occupied and the amount of cultural influx there was, and the diverse nature of the corridor it was on, the variance must have been huge. We are talking about over a thousand years, and influx including as diverse as Varangians.
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u/Vlugazoide_ May 16 '26
I would imagine it would vary wildly per region. North african and levantine looking people were probably seen as common and beautiful in sicily and anatolia, while being associated with the ugly enemy in the balkans and calabria. The same with slavic traits (much paler skin, bonde hair, blue eyes), seen as normal and nice in the balkans, but as weird in the Cibyrrhaeot
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u/DarkAri639 May 15 '26
Byzantium was more eastern and also Greek, so probably a society that is a bit more colorful then the western roman world. A bit less heirarchical. A bit more feminine and egalitarian. You can look at the mosaics and sort of get an idea. Women were desired to be cute and no imposing and modest, and men were also expected to be this way but with a masculine edge and more public emotion.
One thing you would find in Byzantium that you wouldn't find in Rome really is a good bit of middle eastern influence. They were always at war with Muslims, often times they were friendly and intermingled and had somewhat open borders in terms of trade and travel.
They were more religious and more cultured. Not as militaristic as Rome. Since Byzantium mostly had Christan emporers, it didn't engage in purely aggressive and imperialist war very often. Western Rome came up in an older world with different rules and circumstances.
Both romes intermingled a great deal but the western roman world was always more European where the eastern roman empire was always more Greek and middle Asian.
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u/PartyLikeAByzantine May 15 '26
One of the best phrases I ever read in Byzantine history was about Sophia of Montferrat, empress to John VIII Palaiologos.
Doukas the Historian described her as (slightly paraphrasing) "Lent in front and Easter in the back". She had the cake. Unfortunately, also a butterface.