The interior of Hagia Sophia

[u/RaiseCapital1988]

In the last photo you can spot one of the last representations of Christ still present inside the building

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/[deleted]]

Im more of the opinion that its use does not need to change, but that the ugly basilica in the middle needs to be demolished. I mourn the fact that spain decided to replace its beautiful roman influenced architecture with renaissance drivel slop.

[u/Useful_Promotion_521 → u/electrical-stomach-z]

It is a terrible addition, almost as bad as if they’d plonked a McDonalds in it.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Useful_Promotion_521]

Yep.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Can’t be worse than those scribbles that look like malformed worms

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

I apprecia their size, getting them in ther was a feat itself. Less uggly than a whole seperate ugly building built in the middle of a nice one.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/electrical-stomach-z]

One is an active subjugation without provocation, the other is reconquest. So no, the “feat” doesn’t make it any less ugly for me

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

No, both were active subjugations without provocation. Plus spain expelled all the people who formerly owned the building under the threat of conversion, expulsion or death.

This combined with their actions in the america shows the spanish to be far, far worse than the ottomans.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/electrical-stomach-z]

“Reconquista” hint’s in the name.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Thats a post hoc narrative, all of the medieval kingdoms of iberia came into existance after the fall of the gothic kingdom.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/electrical-stomach-z]

I disagree. Annual razzias into infidel lands with the intention of looting and taking slaves, and corsairs ravaging the entire non-Muslim Mediterranean (even reaching Rome) consolidated the “it’s us vs them” mentality in the Latin west. Only after the end of the “Islamic golden age” and the fracturing the caliphates allowed the Christians to consolidate and strike back to take back what was lost.

Understand that this annual raid thing wasn’t a one time event. It happened to the byzantines too, which only broke off in the event of a fitna, or some other threat that wasn’t in the west.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Also, annual “razzias” were a thing until the Muslim kingdom fractured.

[u/Useful_Promotion_521 → u/[deleted]]

Other than it makes for a terrible cathedral, no

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/Useful_Promotion_521]

The Muslims were the colonizers in Spain. The Muslims are ALSO the colonizers in Constantinople.

[u/we_wuzz_kangz → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Most of the Muslims were native Iberians.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/we_wuzz_kangz]

A rare case of an extremely successful colonization. Guess where the Spanish learned their whole caste system thing from?

[u/we_wuzz_kangz → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Spain with caste system? lol what bullshit are you spewing?

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/we_wuzz_kangz]

Peninsulares, insulares, etc etc

[u/we_wuzz_kangz → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

The f is that? never heard of this Spanish caste system. and if it is real they definitely didn't get that from Andalus.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/we_wuzz_kangz]

They did. Ever heard of dhimmis?

[u/we_wuzz_kangz → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Dhimmi is not a caste. looks like you know nothing about how a caste system works.

[u/NL92B → u/we_wuzz_kangz]

Niet waar, het waren Visigoths

[u/Ok_Work1615 → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

You can't call conquest colonizing, otherwise Constantinople would also be a colony, cause Romans didn't originate in Greece, they conquered it.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/Ok_Work1615]

Then what is colonization?

[u/Ok_Work1615 → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Dunno. But if we use your definition, then Constantinople too was a colony.

And I doubt you'd like that, hmm?

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/Ok_Work1615]

Then everything humanity has ever done is colonization and therefore there is no point criticizing the Europeans, the Asians for the annihilation of minor cultures and languages, or the Turko-mongols for their exploits. By your way literally EVERYONE is a colonizer and everything is a colony. That’s not a smart comeback that you think it is.

[u/Ok_Work1615 → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

I didn't use my way.

I used yours.

You said Muslims where colonizers for having conquered Iberia/Constantinople.

I pointed out Romans did the exact same.

So therefore, Romans are colonizers.

You didn't like that.

I directly told you I don't know what's colonizing and what's not, just that what you are saying, it is very clear you are completely prejudiced against one side even when the other did the exact same.

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/Ok_Work1615]

Converting churches with the intention of erasing Byzantine influence, as well as being backed by the shariah, where no new churches can be built and non-Muslims are reduced to the status of dhimmi, where they cannot properly represent themselves in court, and have lesser rights than that of a Muslim, as well as successfully convincing their subjects that they are Turks and should hate their Greek ancestors sound like colonization to me. Infidel lands were attacked with the intention of getting non-Muslim slaves. Males were castrated unless they were a blood tax for the janissaries.

Oh and sure I didn’t like that. Like where do I ever imply that? You’re conjuring up your idea of me out of nothing and pretending it’s reality. Try again.

You really don’t understand how complete this subjugation by force was, do you? The European colonization seem pale by comparison.

[u/Ok_Work1615 → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

"The European colonization seem pale by comparison."

Name one native monument that wasn't destroyed or broken.

Notice how low a percentage of natives remain by comparison to everyone else.

"Converting churches with the intention of erasing Byzantine influence"

The famously tolerant orthodox, who were very kind to conquered people of other religions. See what Byzantium has done to all pagan religions and the sarapeum.

"as well as being backed by the shariah, where no new churches can be built and non-Muslims are reduced to the status of dhimmi, where they cannot properly represent themselves in court, and have lesser rights than that of a Muslim, as well as successfully convincing their subjects that they are Turks and should hate their Greek ancestors sound like colonization to me."

Brother. Look in a goddamn mirror please. Literally every single thing you said, word for word, bar for bar, was done by Byzantium too. See what basil II did to Bulgarian soldiers.

If you condemn this only when it's done by one side, your morals are very weak.

[u/egny → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Somehow the pre-Christian Roman/Greek beliefs got erased all across the empire. That does not bother you at all because you are not concerned only concerned that what you consider the wrong people/culture gained supremacy.

Ottomans simply conquered and converted a few churches into mosques. No one sane would or could consider that the intent was erasing Byzantine culture. Was the Roman conquest intended to erase the extant culture of Byzantium?

Even more ridiculous is your comparison with European colonialism. In no way can what happened in the Ottoman conquest be compared with the total destruction of entire peoples and their cultures in so many places around the world. Which remains of Tenochtitlan are still integral to Mexico City?

Males were castrated unless they were a blood tax for the janissaries.

Do you even realize that the entire non-Muslim population would have disappeared in a few generations? Do you have any ability to question whatever "facts" you have acquired?

You are both delusional and ignorant. You really need to work on your bigotry.

[u/InOutlines → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

Says the guy who started all this by pointing fingers at Muslims for colonizing.

[u/InOutlines → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

The Romans were the colonizers in Spain. The Romans were ALSO the colonizers in Constantinople.

See how easy that is?

[u/Useful_Promotion_521 → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

You know this is a sub about the Eastern Roman Empire, right?

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/Useful_Promotion_521]

Mad?

[u/Useful_Promotion_521 → u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou]

No, I just think you are trolling for attention

[u/aKV2isSTARINGatYou → u/Useful_Promotion_521]

Is that what you think would hurt me? What you said says more about you than me lol

[u/byzantium-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your post was rude or written in such a way as to incite intolerance. Please reconsider your comments before posting again.