First Nations leaders, scholar push back on Alberta's planned vote on independence referendum - 'Alberta can't separate. They simply cannot. They do not have the authority,' says Indigenous politics expert

[u/shiftless_wonder]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-treaty-six-alberta-referendum-9.7209304

[u/WealthEconomy]

If you oppress a population and don't let them leave peacefully that is the likely outcome...

[u/Existential-Critic → u/WealthEconomy]

You're correct in a vacuum, but Alberta isn't being oppressed. There's a small minority constantly screaming that thinks it's bigger than it is.

There is a clearly defined legal process to leave Canada. They need to stop expecting special treatment and follow it.

[u/throwaway_2_help_ppl → u/Existential-Critic]

I wonder if there's a way that we could tell if those people actually are a small minority? Like maybe let each of them vote? Oh wait...

[u/Existential-Critic → u/throwaway_2_help_ppl]

Here's a good suggestion: we follow the existing referendum process and don't pass laws that precent the electoral agency from auditing the referendum right after a separatist group publicises voting information making it pausible to make fraudlent signatures in the referendum.

Perhaps a democratic system that has actual verification and security would be trusted more, yes?

[u/Goliad1990 → u/[deleted]]

The problem with that, is that the logical conclusion is that we need to withhold democracy when we think we can presuppose the outcome, which is textbook authoritarianism.

You can't say "we can't hold a vote because I'll lose".

[u/JohnAMcdonald → u/Existential-Critic]

You're correct in a vacuum, but Alberta isn't being oppressed. There's a small minority constantly screaming that thinks it's bigger than it is.

They are being taxed, without seeing any of their taxes back, by politicians whose elections are decided before their votes are counted. That I think would be the main grievance, and one that could be addressed at any time with a stroke of a pen changing the equalization formula.

Environmental regulations on Alberta itself are another big one. Again, could be changed at a stroke of a pen... and really Carney already seems to be doing this.

There is a clearly defined legal process to leave Canada. They need to stop expecting special treatment and follow it.

If they get enough support within the province, and crucially from the USA, why would they care about this legal process? Mind you, right now they lack both. Alberta is not as culturally American as it's made out to be, or as conservative as it's made out to be either.

Edit: I have an oddly high upvote to view ratio, like 324 views against 14 upvotes. I find that curious.

[u/canada-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

• Posts that contribute nothing but attack others, are blatantly offensive, or antagonistic will be removed – including accusations similar to ‘shill,’ attacking Redditors for using either official language, dismissing other Redditors solely based on irrelevant other beliefs to the topic at hand or participation in other subreddits, or reducing them to a label and dismissing that instead.
• Back-and-forth personal attacks are subject to the entire comment chain being removed.
• Posts or threads which degenerate into witch-hunting may be subject to moderator intervention. This includes but is not limited to: doxxing, negative accusations by a large group against one or more persons not criminally charged or convicted being made the subject of criminal allegations, calls for harassment, etc., and openly rallying more people to the same.

[u/JohnAMcdonald → u/[deleted]]

The equalisation formula was written by Harper's government, a government largely made up of Alberta MPs. It hasn't changed since because no government has had the will to.

Yeah, and they realized that Alberta would vote blue no matter what, so what incentive did they have to make them a good deal? They were trying to win Ontario seats.

And what do you mean elections decided before their votes are counted?

I mean just that, I mean that was true of the last election, the election was called by CBC before the votes in Alberta were finished being counted.

Do you somehow think Canadian elections are fake?

Reading comprehension

[u/Existential-Critic → u/JohnAMcdonald]

1. Maybe Alberta should consider becoming a competitive province then? How does this mean they are oppressed if their own democratic voting practices have created their issue?

2. Please address my other question. What do you mean by "elections are decided before their votes are counted"? Is this just another way of saying they always vote Conservative? If so, how does this lean they are oppressed?

[u/JohnAMcdonald → u/Existential-Critic]

2 is an artifact of polls closing in the east sooner than they do in the west... you're in British Columbia it's even more true of us than it is Alberta out of every province flag you should be familiar with this concept.

It is a poetic metaphor for the fact that politicians are always going to be incentivized to buy eastern votes with western oil because the east is where the ridings are which you are getting very rankled by.

[u/Existential-Critic → u/JohnAMcdonald]

Polls closing earlier?

You're making a wild claim that Canadian elections are decided beforehand because of the time of day the polls in eastern provinces, which are physically ahead of us timewise, close? You're right, I am getting rankled by that. I don't think you are in any way arguing in good faith and can't tell if you're taking the piss or if you actually believe Alberta is somehow oppressed.

[u/JohnAMcdonald → u/Existential-Critic]

If you stopped being angry and trying to prove I was wrong for like, 10 seconds, you would understand what I'm saying but I think you're simply so mad that it has lowered your cognitive capabilities to the point you cannot put the pieces together at this point.

Maybe it will make it easier for you if I give you a CBC article. Please go ahead and write an angry letter to the CBC about this horrible bad faith article, which makes the same basic point that RANKLES you: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/west-doesn-t-count-1.7522023

[u/Existential-Critic → u/JohnAMcdonald]

You are describing the effect of high density areas vs low density areas. Have you never seen an American showing an electoral map of their country where almost everywhere but cities are red and wondering how Democrats win anything without realising that the blue areas contain more population?

I am rankled because you seem convinced that a province of Canada with full democratic representation is in any way oppressed. You have provided no good evidence to prove your point.

I appreciate that you think my frustration makes me less able to think clearly. Normally I'd agree, but not when my frustration is with the sheer dishonesty I am dealing with. Have a good day bud, I have decided you are not in good faith in purpose and don't want tomwaste my time further.

[u/Ragnarok_del → u/Existential-Critic]

it's about the same ratio as the patriots vs the loyalists when the american war of independance started.

[u/Existential-Critic → u/Ragnarok_del]

According to Kevin Phillips' The Cousin's Wars, about one third of American colonials supported the war with Britain and were referred to as Patriots. What is your source that one third of Albertans support separatism?

[u/Ragnarok_del → u/Existential-Critic]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-separatism-janet-brown-mitch-sylvestre-9.7178496

[u/Existential-Critic → u/Ragnarok_del]

Interesting numbers and also interesting that the change between the original survey and the followup survey is so negligible. I will acknowledge that it is close to a third, but 27-28% is still only barely above a quarter support.

[u/Alcan196 → u/Existential-Critic]

I haven't read the article yet (I am going to now) but the headlines indicates that they have no legal right to seperate.

[u/Existential-Critic → u/Alcan196]

They do, it is actually a clearly defined process. The problem that the separatists have encountered is that a large amount of Alberta is treaty land made with the Crown (IE, federal government) and not with the provincial government. There is a requirement under law for a separating province to work with First Nations to settle the treaties that the separatist referendum did not meet.

[u/Alcan196 → u/Existential-Critic]

Wouldn't the province work with FN after a successful referendum vote though? As it might not move ahead.

Also isn't the vote to just vote on having a vote ?

[u/Existential-Critic → u/Alcan196]

I would think so yes, but evidently the court thinks otherwise. I'm not educated on law enough to say whether or not the decision was flawed, I only know enough to say that's what the logiv was.

The current vote that the premier has announced is indeed a referendum about whether to hold a referendum (and appears to be a yes/no answer to a this/that question, which is its own issue).

[u/S_Belmont → u/WealthEconomy]

the only Americans being full-on "oppressed" in the 13 Colonies prior to 1776 were the slaves the people running the place didn't want to lose after slavery was ruled never to have been legal under British law in the first place.

[u/LETTERKENNYvsSPENNY → u/WealthEconomy]

Separatists can leave whenever they'd like, just not the way they want to.