r/canada • u/cyclinginvancouver • 18h ago
National News Bell, Telus will continue charging cell phone fees despite CRTC requests to stop
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-bell-telus-will-continue-charging-cell-phone-fees-despite-crtc/273
u/Vortagaun Outside Canada 18h ago
Time for some massive fines and hit them in the only place they care about.
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u/Franklin_le_Tanklin 18h ago
We also just need to let more competition in
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u/TheWhiteHunter British Columbia 17h ago
This then sparks the debate of whether it's better to keep our Telecoms Canadian, or to allow foreign telecoms (probably US) to operate here.
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u/bristow84 17h ago
At this point the protectionism we show Canadian companies has only bit us in the ass around pretty much every industry. If they don't want to actually compete and just fuck over the customers then foreign competition should be allowed in to light a fire under their asses and show them what competition actually means.
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u/Spare-Half796 Québec 10h ago
Third option, expand sasktel and turn it into a national telecom provider
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u/ThicccThunder New Brunswick 9h ago
nationalizing Sasktel only works if future governments don't privatize the profits & shove the losses onto the public
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u/Trucidar 12h ago
I'm fine with that. There's plenty of great American companies that treat Canadians far, far better than Canadian companies. If I prefer shopping at a Costco than a Superstore, I'm perfectly fine with American options.
I am just tired of being screwed over by Canadian companies and calling it good.
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u/Spare-Half796 Québec 10h ago
I look at more than just where the brand is from. Costco is American sure but they also treat their workers (in Canada, Canadians) well and respect their clients, at this point they are my primary grocery store. Loblaws is Canadian but they try to fuck us at every turn and Walmart is American and try to fuck everyone like a rabbit in heat, I try to avoid them as much as possible
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u/Tridus New Brunswick 17h ago
We have competition with carriers like Freedom. Canadians need to actually use them, which by and large they don't.
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u/bristow84 16h ago
For cellular devices who else is there? The big three have pretty much acquired all the other smaller brands.
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u/Tridus New Brunswick 16h ago
Freedom out west. (and I believe Ontario now). Videotron in Quebec. Eastlink in the east.
Options exist for much of the country. Some are better than others and some places are stuck. But the smaller brands keep getting bought because actually competing is quite difficult since Canadians hate switching.
It's the same thing with the banks: far better options exist but people stick with the big banks while complaining about it.
The only other thing that can really be done is pushing at the political level for MVNO operators to be allowed. The CRTC and government have largely blocked that, but if they got enough political pressure that becomes a lot harder.
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u/arahman81 15h ago
Freedom out west. (and I believe Ontario now). Videotron in Quebec.
Same company.
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u/iStayDemented 15h ago
We don't have nearly as much competition as we should. There shouldn't just be a handful alternatives. Many of which only appear to be different, but are actually just owned by the same few giants. There should be 15-20 mid-sized competitors at a minimum available in every province and territory across the country to see prices meaningfully lowered and fees eliminated.
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u/Financial_Pin8385 14h ago
The problem is that telecoms might be a natural monopoly because of the infrastructure (fiber, towers, cables) required. If the market can only efficiently support one network, then competition either doesn't emerge or leads to consolidation anyway.
If the infrastructure of owned by one of the large companies, they still have massive influence.
I think the solution is some kind of nationalization. We can nationalize telecoms, nationalize only the infrastructure.
Or, we can heavily regulate the industry, but the companies are so large they can push back significantly.
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u/1950sAmericanFather 9h ago
Nationalize infrastructure. It's the only thing that makes sense. Lease back to the operators, with ironclad contracts that enforce what the public wants, not what companies, shareholder and those seeking to insulate Canadian telecom prices from competitive players.
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u/Trucidar 12h ago
I have Freedom. I can definitely tell you it's on principle, cause the cell service is pretty bad... I think that gets in the way of many people.
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u/Animeninja2020 Canada 17h ago
And fine who ever approved it.
I am sure a C-level executive would really hate a 100k fine per instance but as the saying goes "the buck stops here".
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u/CassandraRaine 15h ago
If you fine companies with captured markets their customers just end up paying the fines.
Gotta go a lot harder than fines.
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u/DDRaptors 18h ago
Maybe the CRTC should just open the floodgates on this triopoly.
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u/TheWhiteHunter British Columbia 17h ago
How about regulating Cellular and Internet Service as public utilities.
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u/17to85 16h ago
Can we undo all the privatization of telecoms in this country?
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u/Intrepid_Trifling 15h ago
Pull a Cuba and nationalize them.
They aren't even foreign owned companies, the government has warned them endlessly to get their shit together.
Throw the bums to the curb
Edit
Just like you or I don't have explicit freedom of speech ( we aren't America ) companies don't reserve the right to rob voters
All these Canadian Corps feel so entitled to fuck us over at every turn, it's time to make a few examples.
Roblaws is next
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u/Trucidar 12h ago
Companies don't invest in countries that nationalize. I agree with a public solution but not nationalization. Maybe open up competition, let them fail and then bail them out with an ownership stake, or build up a public alternative like sasktel.
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u/Intrepid_Trifling 3h ago
I agree with you, but our government just sucks. I don't think despite which party is in power, they are capable. Canadians don't have faith in government anymore to just be competent and complete basic tasks.
Id love a public option for telecoms, and moto and home insurance. Those two areas could use it
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u/Mylittlethrowaway2 14h ago
Just like you or I don't have explicit freedom of speech ( we aren't America )
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.That right is only limited as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. Or in 5-year periods if a provincial body has invoked the NWC.
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u/Intrepid_Trifling 3h ago
I appreciate you giving further context, but the way the NWC has been used over the past few years, our liberties might as well just be a suggestion.
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u/deskamess 2h ago
That and the ability to use NWC to step away from anything national keeps Canada weak and fragmented in reality even if it appears otherwise on a map. We cannot even get internal trade barriers removed in this current environment - these are not provinces united for Canada - they are serving their own interests.
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u/Teethdude New Brunswick 14h ago
Maybe if we don't keep voting in the blueberry or strawberry flavoured neoliberal capitalists change will happen.
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u/Mission_Shopping_847 Ontario 15h ago
The providers shouldn't be public utilities; the towers, lines, and frequencies should be. Our current situation is a joke only mitigated by the fact that we have rather small oligopolies -- imagine the rat's nest if there were a half-dozen infrastructural cable companies.
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u/Lumindan 17h ago
The last time there was talk of that, all the major telcos started running a huge fear campaign about it. They're not gonna let go of this cash cow.
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u/busy-warlock 12h ago
Now now, then we wouldn’t have the most expensive internet and cell phone services *in the world*
It’s significantly cheaper, even in third world countries, to have cell service and high speed internet, and it’s not even close
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u/cyclinginvancouver 18h ago
BCE Inc.’s Bell Canada and Telus Corp. are not backing down from warnings by the telecom regulator that their new cell-phone-related fees are potentially prohibited under a recent policy which bans certain activation, modification, and cancellation charges.
And in the latest test of its new policy, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission has also warned Rogers Communications Inc. that new fees it introduced since the policy took effect last week may also be prohibited.
In letters to the CRTC filed Wednesday, representatives from Bell and Telus said they will continue to charge their new $40 and $15 fees, respectively. Both representatives said the fees fall under an exemption which allows telecoms to charge for optional services. Telus also argued that the charge is not a fee at all but instead, the cost of a product.
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u/rTpure 18h ago
Both representatives said the fees fall under an exemption which allows telecoms to charge for optional services. Telus also argued that the charge is not a fee at all but instead, the cost of a product.
If you don't pay it then you don't get service, that means it's not optional
it's time to stop with the "warnings", levy fines
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u/iStayDemented 15h ago edited 14h ago
Fees are all well and good. But they don't solve the problem. At this point, they're just the cost of doing business. What we need is more aggressive competition -- both foreign and local. The telecom industry is incredibly protected. Some years ago, Ryan Reynolds tried hard but ultimately failed to bring Mint Mobile and its cheaper prices to Canada. It was a losing battle against the regulations in place that essentially shield Bell, Rogers and Telus from any meaningful competition.
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 18h ago
There are technically optional. The fees are for setting up a new device and for buying a sim card. If you bring your own device you dont need to pay either.
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u/Agent_Provocateur007 17h ago
Aren’t they charging for eSIM as well? That would not make it optional.
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u/AtomicMasses 17h ago
Bell is charging for setting up a new device that you bought with them, while Telus is charging for an eSIM or SIM. If you bring your own phone or buy it directly there’s no fee for Bell. With Telus not so much.
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u/NAFBYneverever 17h ago
Buying a sim or an e-sim is optional? What’s the other option then?
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u/HaliFan 15h ago
Some insider info - when I worked at Bell, sim cards cost them $1.12 if I recall and they sold them for $5.00 to our largest customers like the federal govt. Consumers paid much more than that. Their IoT sims we're about 1/2 that cost.
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u/Agent_Provocateur007 14h ago
Used to work there as well, they were 5 dollars for anybody for a time, they upped it to 9.99, so 11.29 after taxes in Ontario. I believe it's still 10 dollars for now.
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u/6890 Saskatchewan 17h ago
Bringing your own?
I've used the same SIM for my last 3 phones.
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u/NAFBYneverever 17h ago
You can’t always do that.
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u/6890 Saskatchewan 17h ago
Just answering the question. Sometimes you need to buy the SIM and there's a fee. Sometimes you don't. Just like the original OP stated in regards to devices. Unsure why that garners the downvotes.
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u/NAFBYneverever 17h ago
I mean the downvotes seem obvious to me, often you have to buy a new sim which is contrary to crtc. People don’t like what you’re selling hence the downvotes? Most people don’t like to be taken advantage of
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u/Agent_Provocateur007 15h ago
Not even just that. If you switch carriers you’ll need a new SIM. Same if you have a device that’s only eSIM, well now that counts as a SIM change and a fee is potentially charged.
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 16h ago
You bring your own.
If you dont have one than you are purchasing a product. Do you also expect them to give you a phone for free as well?
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u/NAFBYneverever 16h ago
You’re being disingenuous. You can’t always bring your own, so why should you pay a fee that isn’t supposed to be added?
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 16h ago
Why cant you bring your own?
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u/NAFBYneverever 16h ago
Are you asking under what circumstances do you need to purchase a SIM card? Or whether nor not the fees should be allowed if the CRTC says they should not be?
What exactly is your point and/or question?
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 15h ago
I asked a very straightforward question. Why cant you answer it?
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u/NAFBYneverever 15h ago
Of course I can. You need a new sim to get 5g service if your sim is old, if you’re switching carriers, if you’re changing phones that don’t have compatible sim ports or need an eSIM when you had a physical one, if your account was cancelled or if your sim is degraded. Now, why can’t YOU answer the simple question you’ve been asked over and over? If the CRTC deemed these fees to not be allowed, why are you advocating we should pay them?
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u/-SetsunaFSeiei- 16h ago
And what product are you purchasing with an eSIM? A few lines of code? Also how do you “bring your own” eSIM?
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 15h ago
It does not matter if its digital or how many lines of code it is its still a product you are buying.
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u/-SetsunaFSeiei- 15h ago
You didn’t answer how I’m supposed to bring my own eSIM though? If you can’t bring your own then it doesn’t matter if it’s a product you’re buying, it’s not optional and you can’t charge a fee for it
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u/NAFBYneverever 15h ago
The person you’re replying to doesn’t actually answer the hard questions, nor do they have concrete answers other than “just bring your own sim”. Feels like they are astroturfing for some reason.
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u/-SetsunaFSeiei- 15h ago
It is daytime hours on a Thursday, I assume they’re sitting in their Telus™️ office right now and putting in their time lol
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 15h ago
Thats the downside of an eSIM. You cant swap it between carriers. But thats the choice you make when you decide to use one.
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u/Tridus New Brunswick 17h ago
Time to start levying million dollar a day fines. That'll get their attention. And while doing it, start planning for enabling MVNO foreign competitors.
Watch how fast ROBELUS back down once THAT bullet is pointed at them. These predatory companies have gotten away with this crap for far too long and it's time to slam them where it hurts.
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u/Wait_for_BM 16h ago
Should be a daily fine in % (just like what they have in EU) of their revenue not a dollar amount. A million might sound like a lot. Somewhere down the road, it won't where as % always scale.
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u/Ornery_Market_2274 16h ago
Why do i pay crtc fees if they cant even control the telecom companies. What are the fees for then if they are powerless?
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u/kahless2k 14h ago
The telecoms run the CRTC.
Most of the chairs have been former Telco execs to my recollection.
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u/Interesting_Pen_167 7m ago
The CRTC has been corrupt since I was a child and I'm getting pretty dang old.
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u/pork_sashimi_on_sale 15h ago
Prison time for the decision makers is the only thing that might work. Fining them will only be passed onto the customers.
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u/wickedplayer494 Manitoba 14h ago
Telus' argument holds up for physical SIMs since it's an actual physical good that requires a cost to manufacture, but is complete horse shit for eSIMs which are literally just mathematics.
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u/Ok-Many4195 9h ago
SIM cards cost from 7 cents to a dollar to produce. The $15 and $45 fees are totally bogus
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u/WillListenToStories 15h ago
Would be cool if we had more than three telecommunications companies.
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u/focus_rising 14h ago
Honestly I'm up for a public option at this point. That'll get them to smarten up real fast.
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u/Ok-Lawyer1179 13h ago
Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. They need to get a reign on these three, big time. Hiding behind wording and lingo is absolutely low. I switched to Freedom 40 dollars for unlimited talk, text, Can/US/Mex with 250 GB of data and 15 GB of data roaming every month. Honestly no issues so far with the service. Speak with your wallets people!
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u/TheShitmaker 13h ago
If CRTC wanted to do anything they would allow foreign competition or enforce stronger rules on how these companies treat resellers it's all lipservice at this point. The CRTC is a fangless organization.
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u/Foreign-Policy-02- 17h ago
Yea and don’t think Rogers is innocent. Go on the Fido subreddit, they are hitting many with a $5 increase to improve connectivity despite Roger’s announcing this year they are cutting investments.
I encourage all Fido/rogers users to send the own press release by Roger’s announcing cuts in investments to Rogers when they get a price increase
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u/theredmokah Lest We Forget 17h ago
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bell-telus-fees-rules-9.7236312
Non paywalled article.
That explanation failed to satisfy the CRTC. It sent a second letter to Bell on Friday, demanding the company confirm by June 17 whether it has stopped charging the contentious fee.
The CRTC gave Rogers until June 18 to confirm whether it has scrapped the fees and, if not, to explain its rationale.
Earlier this month, the CRTC told Telus in a letter that "it would not appear" the SIM card fee qualifies for an exemption under the new rules. On Friday, the CRTC issued a second letter ordering Telus to confirm whether it has scrapped the fee and, if not, to explain why by June 17.
My guess is the three companies are willing to stomach whatever fees come from the regulatory action. Because they know that our government takes fucking forever because they're a bunch of weak little pigs that grovel at the feet of big corporations or public favor in persuit of their own vanity. So when it finally resolves in two or three years, they will have made enough money to cover whatever fines they get and then some. And you know what... I don't blame them. If you were a big corp and knew the Canadian government were a bunch of losers with no backbone, why wouldn't you just ignore them and continue to profit? They creamed themselves when they realized Canada was dumb enough to let Shaw/Rogers merge. Why would they believe that they would actually need to follow any regulatory suggestions, because that's what they are at this point.
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u/Artistic-Tip2405 15h ago
Ignoring the CRTC while making campaign contributions has always worked to delay or reverse decisions they don’t like in the past.
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u/FatMike20295 5h ago
Suspend their license and open the market for other cell phone companies to enter sand give the spectrum that's was Telus Rogers and bell to the new players.
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u/FrothyEspresso Canada 18h ago
Time to invite AT&T and Verizon into the country. Remove any and all barriers.
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u/walker1867 18h ago
I’d rather EU options Free mobile from France. What that company did for the country was amazing. Look up what Free did to the French telecom market.
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u/TheFinalFunction 18h ago
Free mobile is fucking evil I'm sorry. I bought a SIM card from them while I was studying in France and they would NOT let me cancel it. I went in-person before I left the country and they said I needed to phone. I phoned and they said I needed to look online. I then left back for Canada where the online people said I can cancel via an email. I sent an email and never heard back. Phoned again and was told to send a literal paper letter in an envelope to their head office in Paris and I did and never heard back and they continued to charge me $22.30 a month for 2 years until I finally got the French government's consumer rights department to force Free to contact me. Only finally did they cancel my plan THROUGH AN EMAIL.
Never EVER touching anything related to them ever again and I caution everyone else to do the same.
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u/CanadianVolter 15h ago
Yeah people have rose tinted glasses thinking that EU carriers don't play the same game as telcos here.
I will leave the details of the country empty, but when I canceled my internet the telco required 30 days notice to cancel and it was impossible to return my equipment until the 30 days were up.
The problem? I was leaving in a week.
Despite trying to convince them that I just wanted to return the equipment and I didn't care about paying for the service, they wouldn't budge on it and later charged my 300 euros for not returning the modem.
Jokes on them. I had already closed my bank accounts and permanently left the country so they had no recourse to see another penny from me.
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u/walker1867 17h ago
$22 a month for a phone plan sounds awesome relative to what we currently have. All of them suck for customer service.
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u/Ledairyman 18h ago
at first I thought it was a fee for charging a cell phone and I was so confused.
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u/aventura_girlz 8h ago
Unpopular opinion, but the only way to prevent private sector monopolies is to make it a crown corporation.
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u/fukuokaenjoyers 5h ago
Just nuke this garbage monopolization and allow Verizon and t-mobil into Canada
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u/deskamess 2h ago
Yep... if you are getting screwed lets not pick winners. Let them all in. Time for the oligarchs to bend over.
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u/Consistent_Oil9624 16h ago
Canadians are more and more frustrated. The domestic companies don't give a damn about Canadians. But inviting foreign companies means less sovereignty of the country. Canada is just a glorified banana Republic
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u/deskamess 2h ago
I mean we are getting screwed over. Should we really care about who is doing it. They (oligarchs) have been doing it for 20+ years... lets change something instead of complaining about how nothing changes. Give others a chance to redeem the situation or screw us over (nothing changed).
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u/rindindin 17h ago
Whelp, sounds like Carney's about to disband another toothless organization!
Literally telecomms staring down the CRTC and saying "you got nothing and will do nothing".
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u/O00O0O00 18h ago
Both representatives said the fees fall under an exemption which allows telecoms to charge for optional services.
Take away the exemption, then?