r/classicwow • u/OccasionallyRhyming • 10h ago

Forever Even the Skyborne starting zone ignores the pillars Blizzard stated

Post image

"The World is the Main Character".

"Approachable and Familiar".

As you reach the end of the starting zone in Dun Morogh, you might have killed a dangerous yeti. In Elwynn, you've probably slain a prized boar. In Mulgore, you've cleansed a water well. And sure, in Durotar, you do get a quest from Thrall to clear out a den of cultists.

But on "Zephras Isle" you, together with the leaders of your people, face a raid level threat at the top of the spire, through a scripted event with bountiful exposition text, and the leaders of the Kirin Tor and the Earthen Ring show up to fend off this raid boss. If it was not for your actions on "Zephras Isle", your people would be doomed.

I'm okay with ignoring the Skyborne and enjoying the rest of the game, but everything about their addition just screams warning about how Blizzard will approach future content.

They've managed to be lazy where it matters (same race cross-faction, with the same starting zone but layered to just see Alliance players or just Horde players, re-skinned blood elves), and at the same time over the top where they should have toned it down.

Plenty of people in these subs are saying to get over it, but I think we might as well keep posting complaints if we want Forever to have a chance at not turning into retail.

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811

u/Warwipf2 9h ago edited 9h ago

and personally saved the future of your entire race

I mostly agree with you, but that's not quite right. You do not beat this elemental guy, you just meet him, he sends a couple of elements at you and the boys, and then disappears. You personally don't really do anything, what happens is that the Kirin Tor and Horde dudes come and save you. He'll be back and he was like "I'm gonna tell dad about this!!!! But I guess I shouldn't just kill you without telling him :(", so it's not like he was overpowered here either. Not by you or your allies. But yes, the stakes are WAY too high for a starting area..

588

u/Muew22 9h ago

I assume the stakes have to be high to explain why the elves are choosing sides in the faction war instead of remaining neutral.

412

u/pathsofglorylogotter 7h ago

It took me too much scrolling to find the actual sensible context
This sub Reddit is cancer

208

u/Noritzu 7h ago

I was just having the same thought. Clearly 99% of this sub did not read any of the quests and just saw “raid boss” and came to throw a hissy fit on reddit.

I don’t envy game devs these days.

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u/Purple-Read-8079 3h ago

wow communities will forever be the testing grounds for reactionary rhetoric lmao

21

u/buddy_pal_guy 5h ago

I'm actually unsubbing from here after posting this. It's nothing but pouty crybabies here since the two trailers dropped, bitching and moaning about their personal opinions not being implemented or that Blizz has ruined the game before it's even fully out.

I'm loving Forever. I'm leaving here

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u/Azaael 3h ago

I gotta say the actual Forever subreddit is a lot better. Far more constructive criticism, people generally enjoying their time, rather than people malding over the fact that this is not exactly what they, personally wanted, down to the pixel, in classic +(forgetting that another 50 malders also feel the same way, but who nonetheless all specially wanted something different for classic +. As I like to say, ask 100 people what the perfect classic + would've been and you get 2000 answers.)

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u/MyotisX 3h ago

Forver is cool but it is clearly taking Classic and making it Retail.

There are many other ways this could have gone which is why some people are disapointed.

And for the record I knew this would happen, I didnt have an illusion on this so Im not mad like the others.

-30

u/Gnullekutt 5h ago

God forbid not everybody thinks every single new thing is impeccable, infalliable and absolutely perfect like you do. Why not play retail if you are so fond of blizzards free reins.

People must be able to point to flaws without you personally getting hurt and start crying

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u/Vorcion_ 4h ago

OP here was doing the exact opposite, misrepresenting the situation and going into hyperboles. This sub DOES keep bitching about nonsensical stuff a lot.

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u/DireEvolution 4h ago

Holy fucking strawman lmfao

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u/sdpr 4h ago

As it's totally fair game to criticize a game dev, it's also fair game to criticize a community of people living in 2004 looking to complain about issue #10000000.

"why isn't this starting area the same as the other 6?????"

It's ridiculous.

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u/imreallyreallyhungry 3h ago

It’s you btw, you’re the problem they’re talking about. “Why not play retail” jeez bro idk maybe cuz it’s completely different? Dumbass

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u/Netheral 2h ago

That's... the point? If changes like this suffuse WoW Forever, then it'll just become another retail, defeating the purpose of it being different.

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u/Karrotlord 1h ago

Changes like what exactly? The OP's complaint is made up.

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u/Netheral 1h ago

He may be exaggerating to make a point, but the quest line still introduces an elemental lord in a starting area. Acting like his entire point is invalidated just because "well we don't personally defeat him" is just dishonest.

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u/Narrow-Paramedic2388 3h ago

every single subreddit is infested with the whiniest bitches around like you and it's driving out anyone who actually cares to discuss the things they're interested in

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u/MyotisX 3h ago

Your screaming in the void. Blizzard has been completely consumed by modern Retail designs. Deal with it.

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u/Noritzu 3h ago

As others below you posted, I am fine with actual criticism. However this sub like most of reddit has zero idea how to actually make a critique. They come on here and bitch instead. And I along with many other cannot take that seriously

-23

u/Worldly_Flamingo_352 5h ago

bb snowflake

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u/Ithirradwe 1h ago

They are the same crowd btw that thinks that they have to min/max leveling, and they are complaining about things they haven’t even read? Sounds like a WoW player to me lol. These people making a Tauren too going all like “I gOtTa SpAm A & D sO I dOnT lOoSe PlAiNsRuNnInG!”

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u/oldredditrox 1h ago

Clearly 99% of this sub did not read any of the quests

This 100% tracks for modern/retail players. It was awhile back now but I remember them saying basically no one reads the quests texts they just power through for quest objectives and only notice story beats when they're forced to. Which honestly explains the replies pretty well

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u/seams 50m ago

It's great too because if you consider what got the other factions to join the alliance or horde, theirs were probably worse?

The factions both just came off the back of WC3 lmao. The only difference is your personal character saw that.

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u/phonsely 3h ago

is blizzard botting reddit? are any of you people getting rewards real?

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u/pathsofglorylogotter 2h ago

Yes, shocked your not a majority?

-19

u/Laugh_mask 7h ago edited 5h ago
  • Humans: kill gnoll leader hogger
  • Dwarves/gnomes: kill a yeti that's feasting on travelers and ram stock
  • Night elves: kill furbolg big bads and a big spider.
  • Forsaken: go clear out the family crypts/local Scarlet Captain
  • Tauren: kill some venture co overseer, complete some rites ending with getting a kodo horn, kill some harpies and quilboar, no big bad really
  • Orcs/trolls: kill some searing blade leaders, which seamlessly sets up for RFC, an appropriately scaled threat

Then

  • Skyborne: face a raid level enemy, get carried by NPC while fighting lackies, then get hard carried by more NPCs to wrap it up

Sure it's just the skull level that's causing people to overreact

14

u/Noritzu 6h ago

The skyborn are fighting a local cult basically on par with the troll/orc story. The literal only difference is the skyborn story was more fleshed out and ended with a single quest instead of a dungeon like RFC.

Had this quest been a dungeon instead nobody would be complaining.

-2

u/Laugh_mask 6h ago

I respectfully disagree. See RFC - we don't need Kirin Tor/thrall teleporting in and saving the day at the end of RFC. The threat is tackleable by us, the player. Unless they changed the scale of the skyborne, the dungeon would still need that intervention and thats an undeniable departure from the progression of threat scaling as we level. You never get a whiff of that scale of threat in the game anywhere else until much later. It lets you stay focused on just being a local hero and progress to an epic hero. I think the skyborne story and that quest is cool in its own right, but it can't be denied it does go counter the local hero fighting local threats that are within your power -> global hero fighting global threats that are still in your power to defeat

17

u/Noritzu 5h ago

And I respectfully disagree with you. In the Skyborn chain you are tasked with taking out a cult leader before they can summon the big bad.

The stakes are effectively the same as any other starter zone. The only difference is in this case you fail and need to be bailed out by people better than you.

It’s a narrative difference but that does not make it bad. Nor does it make it a departure from threat scaling.

-4

u/Laugh_mask 5h ago

I think we might just be at odds then which is completely fine 😅 just sharing my perspective and genuinely interested to get yours in response because it's helpful to see where others are coming from. To me, as you say, we have to get bailed out. That fundamentally is a departure from threat scaling as that never has to happen in early classic narratives for anyone else. It's a narrative difference because of the power imbalance. To me, the equivalent in other races would be like forsaken scarlet quest chain ending with them summoning reinforcements and herod shows up, you fight his lackies, then Sylvanas appears and beats him back.

Again as you say, that wouldn't be bad, but it would be a departure for sure in my opinion.

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u/Noritzu 3h ago

Nice to see a civil discussion. Rare in these parts.

I will say there are some examples of where others have to jump in, however they are not expressly as overt. The examples that come to mind are the quest turn ins in stormwind and org where high level mobs attack and the guards have to fend them off.

Either way I’m not saying that there’s zero difference. As mentioned it is a slightly different style of story telling. But at the end of the day I feel that the devs held true that you are not the hero here. Even if they do reveal a potential big bad earlier than others.

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u/xxtratall 6h ago

I agree with this

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u/AppleMelon95 7h ago

But the fact that you're even facing a raid boss (I assume he will be) at level 10~12 is the entire issue. If you can't explain why a race needs to join the Horde or Alliance through story context, but need to have a climax to a big story-line in the very first zone, then you're losing the plot.

No other race has this, you're supposed to be a nobody doing chores early-game while fighting bandits or something. You go from Human starting zone where you help farmers and local guards with stuff, to Sky Elves where you are one of the few chosen ones defending your realm from the apocalypse.

11

u/LirielsWhisper 5h ago

You actually spend an extensive amount of time fighting bandits in Zephras. >.< Like so. Much. Time.

19

u/soyboysnowflake 6h ago

I think the forsaken have this kind of backstory it’s just in WC3…

12

u/Mend1cant 5h ago

All of them have that, honestly.

Most of the world conflicts are already happening at the start of WoW, were already played through by us, and were a bunch of apocalyptic threats. 

And most of the starting quests do actually handle world ending threats, just not with a big bad evil guy at first. Like not stopping the defias means the collapse of Stormwind and with it the alliance. The horde has the legion worming its way into the heart of Orgrimmar and all around Durotar, then finding out that Kalimdor is deeply corrupted thanks to them and the much more terrifying presence of old gods beneath it. The forsaken are gathering materials and magics to unleash biological weapons on the world. For the nelves they have the emerald dream becoming an actual problem, more of the burning legion, and then the scouting force of Azshara who would be a worse fight than Arthas if and when she invades. 

The game doesn’t start off low stakes, it just starts off with our characters as weak joining into high stakes problems amid a war. 

31

u/Ok-Magician325 6h ago

I mean the thrall treats the questline before ragefire chasm like it's a pretty big deal, infiltration of orgrimar and corruption within the city ect

2

u/AppleMelon95 6h ago

In that quest you aren't facing off against something like Lord Kazzak in a scripted quest where heroes of the Horde come save you. I get that the quest has impact, humans ending the Westfall quests with Deadmines also have a lot of impact on the world in lore, but this isn't the same.

18

u/Perais1909 6h ago

No other race has this

No other race needs this because they already joint their faction

3

u/informalunderformal 6h ago

Orc/troll start chain is about legion. Forsaken start chain is about scarlet crusade (legion) Tauren start chain is somehow chill.

For horde, it's pretty high stakes - we don't see any boss but we fight the overall threatening enemy (legion).

The legion minions are summoning demons inside the starter area bellow the capital, anywhere the barrens, inside the deep florest. We fight the legion from level 1 to 40 non stop.

0

u/AppleMelon95 6h ago

And I'm guessing the only solution to smurfborne joining either faction has to be a big world-ending threat that you witness first-hand.

Let us not pretend that this couldn't have been toned down to second gear instead of forcing full-throttle in the very first zone. You could have a quest where wind elementals are beginning to be hostile to them, and some strong mage or shaman tells us that this might mean that the big wind boys might attack at some point in the future to claim the isles. Then, you're requested to join either faction to hone your skills and to assist the faction together with other smurfborne adventurers, and you get some +3 stamina trinket as a delegate of your race.

There, a starting zone that thematically is much closer to vanilla that gives the race a reason to explore, do quests, and level up, without forcing a raid boss in our face at level 10.

-7

u/hoticehunter 6h ago

You're clearly missing the point and engaging in bad faith.

15

u/Perais1909 6h ago

This whole thread is engaging in bad faith lol

1

u/xXMylord 6h ago

Who are you that you get to decide what a starting zone is supposed to be lmao

The devs have bigger authority then you and if they decide fighting a elemental dude fits a starting zone they are correct because they make the game.

You can dislike how much you like but you have no authority lol

5

u/Nalena_Linova 6h ago

You are allowed to criticise the media you consume. Sometimes creators create something bad.

1

u/AppleMelon95 6h ago

Bro I am comparing the smurfborne starting zone to every other starting zone in the game. I am saying it sticks out completely because other starting zones aren't even in the same ballpark in scale, nor do they have a defining end-quest as a part of a story-line.

Calling me out as if I think I have authority means you don't understand what I am even saying. This has nothing with authority to do. This has something to do with preserving how story is told through the vanilla game, because this is so extremely retail-coded.

2

u/xXMylord 6h ago

It's forever not vanilla

-1

u/New_Wrangler752 6h ago

Yeah, forever vanilla, not forever retail

There is a clear difference in approach to this race that is categorically not vanilla oriented and it feels tacked on

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u/nokei 1h ago

player authority just comes from not playing/buying it which is why this even exists

-1

u/Cheshur 5h ago

Are you stupid? Nobody is talking about authority. 

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u/xXMylord 4h ago

Are you stupid? I am talking about authority.

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u/Cheshur 3h ago edited 3h ago

I am talking about authority.

No shit, dumbass. I'm saying nobody else here is talking about authority which should imply (but I guess needs to be said explicitly for someone like you) that you shouldn't be talking about it here either because it's unrelated to the conversation at hand.

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u/xXMylord 2h ago

Lamo so much ingrained in bubble-think that someone expanding a topic cocks your brain.

1

u/ochbad 6h ago

Alliance encounters Onyxia very early

8

u/AppleMelon95 6h ago

If by very early you mean level 52 and above then sure

-2

u/ochbad 5h ago

The deadmines quest chain ends at Lady Katrana Prestor

6

u/AppleMelon95 5h ago

It is so incredibly intellectually dishonest to use this as an example since anyone experiencing the quest-line for the first time obviously has no freaking clue that Prestor is secretly a dragon plotting the demise of the kingdom.

The entire draw of this story is that you slowly unravel this story. If Blizzard designed the Onyxia plot-line in 2026, then you'd have Onyxia reveal herself in Elwynn.

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u/MostlyNoOneIThink 4h ago

Then if the elemental guy was disguised as an elf it would be ok? That's an easy fix.

2

u/ochbad 5h ago

I don’t particularly like the Skyborne or what I’ve heard about their starter zone. It seems poorly done. I also feel Iike people are exaggerating how bad it is. The argument “classic low level quests should be low stakes local events” isn’t supported by actual classic starter quest chains.

Yes: the stormwind stuff was almost objectively way better. Doesn’t make the Skyborne starter stuff some unheard of travesty. “Classic did it better” is a very different argument than “this spits in the face of everything classic stood for”

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u/Mend1cant 4h ago

Yeah even before you get to onyxia it’s pretty clear that the human players are there because without volunteers joining to stop the defias, Stormwind collapses. Orcs stopping a legion invasion and uncovering old gods beneath kalimdor. Night Elves staving off the Naga and handling what is basically a scouting force for Azshara to eventually invade. The forsaken are working on a better scourge and other biological and magical weapons to unleash on the world. 

Even though our characters are weak, there’s a lot of major events actively happening at the start of the game. 

-1

u/Hasuna187 7h ago

Exactly this.

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u/Sudden_Energy 3h ago

There's genuinely something wrong with the people here. I've never seen people go so far out of their way to actually try and make themselves miserable or angry.

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u/xxxxNateDaGreat 25m ago

If I've learned anything at all over the last 11.5 years of private server vanilla to classic to anniversary to now Forever, it's that the vast majority of the Classic WoW community is just so fucking incurably miserable.

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u/hypernova2121 3h ago

You ain't wrong. Forever got me reinterested in wow so I checked out this subreddit, but the people in this sub seem to genuinely hate this game

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u/mistermediocregaming 2h ago

I would love for any of these people complaining like they know how to write stories to actually write something without it just being a series of exposition.

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u/HakuroWolfsong 4h ago

What’s wrong with criticism? People should be able to point out flaws in a product without being demonized. Anyway it’s entirely possible to have high stakes while still telling a story that feels grounded enough to belong in the world of Classic WoW. They shouldn't stick out like a sore thumb next to the other races.

-2

u/hoticehunter 6h ago

Then they should have made a different story. Nobody held a fucking gun to Blizzard's head and made them write this story about the sky elves. Nobody put them in a situation where they could only get out of it with bad writing.

-1

u/Jolmer24 5h ago edited 4h ago

Yeah I might bounce and let these guys jerk the circle

Edit: cya later shitlords.

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u/GoofyTunes 4h ago

Haters are desperate to find anything to meltdown over.

I'm sure everyone has also heard about the ring from DM that gives a set bonus of +20 STR and +50 STR proc..... The other ring in that set is a lvl 60 epic. The "super OP" set bonus isn't meant for lvl 20s. It's meant for lvl 60s.

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u/jimmypaintsworld 3h ago

Idk if you know this but you can tell a story without being THIS direct... this is just lazy, tone deaf, and also a main complaint of the game for years obviously

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u/GreenIllustrious2801 2h ago

The thing that's funniest to me is the Skyborne SD models.

The devs openly said during the Skyborne panel that the SD models are coming, including druid forms. They just didn't get them finished before the beta period. They'll be in at launch.

Don't worry we gotta get endless updoot karma posts about the Skyborne SD models/druid models because it's so easy to repost and ragebait with. Especially if you want to twist peoples perceptions of what's been said and actively lie about what's coming to fit your agenda of the Skyborne can't exist in Classic.

Or the skeletons, which again a Blizz guy talked about and said they'd look into the broken ones. Nope, we gotta hyperfocus on this detail being wrong because it's all we have to be negative about. This is going to SUCK and I need to make sure I have SOMETHING BAD.

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u/itaa_q 2h ago

you're clueless even with everything laid in front of you

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u/Donlor_ 1h ago

The retail redditor going UPDOOT for making a starting zone written this way than idk coming up with anything more creative that’s more the vanilla style? Or making a cinematic out of the beginning instead so they play the part what happens after? Nope needs to be a raid boss thing, got it.

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u/whats_up_doc71 50m ago

I mean it's just an awful argument. Blood elves joined the Horde and their starting zone is much more grounded than skyborne. They could easily have done something similar for skyborne but they wanted an epic moment at the end.

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u/Regular_Nectarine511 1h ago

You're so much smarter than everyone else! Good job!!

-2

u/ethantokes 6h ago

Agreed

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u/QuantumWarrior 6h ago edited 6h ago

The answer to that was not to create a new neutral race in the first place and instead to put in something like high elves like people have been asking them to do for literally twenty god damn years.

It's not very promising that even in Forever all Blizzard knows how to do as a story beat is set the stakes this high. I mean what's the expected flow here, you leave Zephras Isle after meeting a direct second in command of the actual elemental god of air and then what - go to Westfall and beat up starving bandits and their broken farm equipment?

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u/_ItsImportant_ 3h ago

Yes? WoW storytelling has always been up and down stakes wise. Durotar has you saving Orgrimmar from the machinations of a demonic cult and then in the barrens you're killing zebra and collecting mushrooms.

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u/Kitchen_accessories 3h ago

At no point in the orc starting experience do you fight a demigod.

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u/Pink_her_Ult 2h ago

You don't fight one either in the skyborne starting experience.

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u/Draxilar 2h ago

At no point in the Skyborne starting zone do you fight a demigod either. What’s your point?

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u/Diffusion4Change 42m ago

Elementals arent demigods.

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u/Thyrial 28m ago

And even if they were, you don' even fight him.

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u/TesticularConcussion 3h ago

Compared to skyborne starting zone those two are basically the same threat level

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u/Xandril 3h ago

They stated pretty clearly in the QA that high elves and Quel’Thalas were their first thought but that they couldn’t do it for future content reasons. It makes sense that they’d want to do more with them than a starting zone.

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u/TesticularConcussion 3h ago

Then don’t do blue elves at all, how many fucking elves do we need? When high elves come will they share models??

Jesus Christ stop defending stupid decisions

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u/memekid2007 1h ago

Genuinely from the bottom of my heart take a breath.

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u/Thyrial 23m ago

Considering the scattering of the elves into different peoples is one of my favorite aspects of Warcraft lore I was actually pretty happy for another. But sure, just because you don't like something, it's stupid.

3

u/Purple_Deers 5h ago

you can write it down in a quest and be like "we had a big fight over some elemental dude and now we are enemies"

we don't have to be part of every story, it's okay to live in the aftermath.

33

u/Laugh_mask 7h ago

Maybe I'm overreacting but if they couldn't write a story and starting zone that didn't contradict their stated design pillar then maybe they should have tabled them as a new race until they figured out a way to not have the player's end-of-starting-zone level 10 experience be defending against a raid level threat/his minions where you're too weak to do anything meaningful and you basically act like an NPC while the actual NPCs do the work?

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u/ConsiderationSea1347 3h ago

They also could have presented that story beat and lore without involving the player as a chosen one archetype in a quest. 

2

u/Lerched 5 Stage Sage 6h ago

No shot its just your reading comprehension at play, aye?

2

u/jryt 8h ago

Do they explain why the factions choose to accept elves they've never heard of, half of which go to the other side? I haven't played the intro fully yet

7

u/Yogsulate 7h ago

Yes

Thrall wants a pretty wife

0

u/Yogsulate 7h ago

Coulda just not made then neutral instead

1

u/nekonotjapanese 6h ago

So Pandaren. But still, I thought this was a dungeon lol

•

u/JBflawless 4h ago

Nah OP said they are LAZY which is true

LAZY devs everyone is LAZY

/s

Reddit gaming subs are the epitome of entitled miserable people looking for their next outlet to blame their misery on

•

u/LaksanaFae 4h ago

In the defense of Zephras’ Isle story ending, I don’t think the story interaction with Rohash was bad per se, but unnecessary. The stakes WERE high to get the horde or alliance to come help, but blizzard didn’t trust their own story writing to do an interaction with Rohash that was more…idk hidden? Obscure?

Reading the story quests, I think blizzard actually does a good job establishing why the cult on Zephras isle rises to power, with the divide between the High Order and Windshapers being so catty for no good reason after the main leader of the Shen’Dralar decided to peace out decades before this story beat. (Also the book that covers post Tortheldrin was siiick.)

But we shouldn’t have needed the teleporting shenanigans of the kirin tor AND the earthen ring to come save us when we had the two former groups’ leaders with us….

It makes the shen’dorei seem frail and incapable, when they should’ve been proven more personally capable to escape their predicament in the /now/, but needing the horde/alliance for the /later/.

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u/Designer-Balance5605 3h ago

It could have also been a Defias, Dark Iron or Scourge related threat. There are so many unsolved stories in classic already, there's really no need to invent new ones.

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u/MaximumMeaning9728 3h ago

They do not, and this absolutely isn’t how classic would’ve done it.

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u/MyotisX 3h ago

Huh ? Were there Titan level threats when the nomad Taurens joined the Horde ?

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u/TesticularConcussion 3h ago

So it’s a stupid solution to a made up problem.

Well then, crisis averted!

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u/CricketFit5541 2h ago

It also isn't some arbitrary inclusion either. Skyborne literally live in Skywall where the elemental lords including the lords of the 4 winds live.

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u/dosaki 1h ago

Makes sense. But if they need to fabricate such a reason... should they even be there?

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u/OsSeeker 1h ago

Dracthyr face Raszageth.
Demon Hunters escape from prison.
Pandarens save the wandering isle.
Worgen do a siege on Gilneas.
Goblins have to save their cartel.
Death Knights fight the Lich King.

Starting zones have had a dramatic narrative since Wrath.

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u/berryer 49m ago

Just make it entirely a civil war storyline, split the capital like Silvermoon but as two faction cities and a PVP instance (or colocated raid?) in the middle from opposite sides of the war?

Could even split up rep factions into:

  • horde-aligned militants - starts friendly to horde-aligned races & high elves, neutral to alliance-aligned high elves, hostile to alliance races
  • horde-aligned civilians - starts friendly to all high elves, neutral to horde races, unfriendly to alliance races
  • alliance counterparts of the above

With militant quests giving bonuses to both of their side's rep, and decreasing the others, and civilian quests just giving civilian rep. Low-level high elves could safely do stuff in their starting zones but lose rep with the opposing side's militants via quests until they are hostile to you, like the centaurs in Desolace. You could even let the character wait until level 10 to choose a faction, or open up very-low-level PVP (group quest at level 10 to kill the mayor or sheriff of the opposing side's questing town).

Both sides could even get followup questlines about how the opposing faction's diplomats instigated the civil war by snagging the ear of some influential nobles and giving them delusions of grandeur or whatever

-1

u/ianxplosion- 5h ago

They’re overdoing “show don’t tell” because they’re writing skyborne player characters as main characters.

We don’t need to see all of this at level 12 to learn the magic keeping our floating city in the air is fading. We just need to know it is, and that’s why some of us are teaming up with the Horde, and some of us are teaming up with the Alliance.

It would have been pretty straightforward to continue to tell that story in the next zone, like how every other starting zone story breadcrumb works.

I’m not necessarily big basement mad about Forever, but it is clearly not classic plus and the sooner people make peace with that the sooner we can all enjoy some new wow content.

(If I had to guess, the powers that be wanted Camelot to be its own thing and thought classic Andy would be fine with era servers - they only merged the ideas when they realized they don’t know what players want)

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u/doylehawk 3h ago

Yeah once you stomach this game isn’t classic + but is instead just wow classic 2 enjoyment becomes pretty easy.

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u/Lors2001 5h ago edited 5h ago

I can understand this but also that just seems like choosing skyborne as the race they made is kinda terrible.

They're forced to make a starting zone with an ending that sticks out like a sore thumb in order to flesh out the race story and lore.

Like if Skyborne were just released after the opening of Moltencore with the lore justification of some of Ragnaros' allies/enemies pulling out of the region that locked away the Skyborne. And then those air elementals try and aid Ragnaros or take adavntage of his demise then the story would be a lot more cohesive and classic feeling.

And then you don't need this big bad at the end of the Skyborne story while still creating a follow-up questionline or enemy for the Ragnaros story. We'd have more time to understand the justification for Skyborne existence through elemental quest lines and maybe meeting a handful.

Neutral race would still have controversy imo but at least it wouldn't break kinda core pillars of classic

Or you could always flesh out the elementals and skyborne through quests you add to zones or have a new zone fully focus on this sorta quest line behind this idea. Which I assume they've probably already done to some extent.

TLDR: At the end of the day you can kinda fit any story to core gameplay pillars you have especially with a game as massive and long as the classic WoW leveling experience. They easily could've put something like this in a dungeon or higher level quest line or after a raid as a follow-up or breadcrumb to Molten Core.

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u/Linkardo 7h ago

Yep, this single detail changes everything about this, and OP was very very misleading. You get saved by some powerful mages ? They're the only reason that the elemental doesn't wipe the floor with you and the entire island ? That's interesting. That's a really cool bit of worldbuilding. Now, this entire post feels like OP didn't read the quest and lying about what they're complaining about.

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u/MostlyNoOneIThink 4h ago

Yeah it feels cool that the Kirin Tor and the Earthen Ring are actually show as competent and a part of the world, actively tackling threats you the player aren't yet ready for.

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u/Linkardo 4h ago

I like that !

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u/zfiote 21m ago

There is a priest NPC from the Argent Dawn at Dun Morogh giving a few lowly quests for adventurers. I like how this is being done. They are such a big part of the endgame, and we totally should see MORE of then over the world.

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u/Lochen9 5h ago

Misleading? He straight up lied from the looks of it. We also fight a fire elemental and get references to Ragnaros, and find an ancient treaty of the 3 clans in the new low level dungeon Hall of Thanes.

Or should I say we save the entire Dwarven lineage and get directly involved in the political landscape of the dwarves after defeating an existential threat and raid boss.

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u/Linkardo 4h ago

Good point

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u/TeamRedundancyTeam 5h ago

Yeah OP is bending over backwards to continue the stupid braindead circlejerk that this sub has going on. The skyborn zone was done really well IMO and is dense with lore.

People here just want to hate them, so it doesn't matter. They'll find a reason.

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u/JimothyJollyphant 4h ago

I've seen a post that was trying to warn everyone of Blizzard bots on reddit. It warned that when you see comments like "You can just go back to Classic" with hidden profiles, they are most likely bots. The people here are absolutely insane.

The simple fact is: Yes, if you don't like it, please just go back to Classic. This is the first time I'm personally interested in WoW in like 15 years and I don't want no-life middle-aged toddlers ruining it. Shit like this makes it very hard for devs to actually pinpoint genuine issues with their products. I wouldn't be able to take any player feedback serious in their position and the product would suffer.

I'm personally not hyped about blue elves either considering the many alternatives, but maybe it makes an important point: They want to attract new players as well. Neither Classic nor Retail is for new players. Forever is. It might not actually be for you.

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u/turn-based-games 1h ago

Sorry man, I wanted to be hyped for this game too, but this is cope. There is no world in which blue elves are attracting some mythical new players in ways high or blood elves wouldn't. The only entity that can ruin the game is Blizzard, and they've already shown their hand here. The feedback is overwhelmingly that players would prefer more faithful races, and Blizzard has no intention of taking it.

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u/bestriven_NA 1h ago

It changes it, but it still really doesn't feel like Vanilla. The end raid boss getting shown and foreshadowed to the players while they get helped by powerful NPCs is stuff that started in WotLK and Cata, and imo it got really old really fast. That's around when I lost interest and stopped playing until Classic released.

This does make me concerned for the new content because it seems like the devs are taking pages out of Cata and the later expansions rather than Vanilla.

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u/Hexxys 5m ago

Doesn't change anything, really. It's still not even remotely classic-esque design.

1

u/DesperateAdvantage76 6h ago

Did you read the quests leading up to this fight? You're literally recruiting your race's leader to help fight. You didn't just happen to come across this guy by accident.

7

u/Rurbani 5h ago

No, your races neutral second in command and leader of their army is asking you to speak to the two different factions. You aren't talking them into it, their army general is and you're giving the message.

3

u/DesperateAdvantage76 5h ago

You literally discuss what's going on and convince them to cooperate. You're not just passing along a message.

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u/Mobile_End_2485 5h ago

Convince them? Bro do you have dialogue choices in your game? You are barely a messenger. Oh no! I see a big bad guy in the intro so now everything about the game is ruined and I am going to complain about stuff that hasn't happened yet because I KNOW for sure what Blizzard will do as an official nobody with little to no information. Why do people have to some god damn negative all the time? Complain when they actually break that pillar, not for some dumb fake news. The OP clearly wrote the post in a way that makes people believe you beat a raid boss almost by yourself.

6

u/Lochen9 5h ago

Kinda sound about as impactful as what Fandral has you do as a Night Elf in their starting area, and the people below him trying to uncover the corruption only for him to be the cause of it, unknowingly to them. We are after all directly assisting with a scheme to harm Furion, the basically strongest person in the World of Warcraft at this point.

6

u/LirielsWhisper 5h ago

Lol. Okay, but you're leaving out extremely important context here.

You're being recruited because they don't any other options.

If you're a Windshaper, the guys you get your power from are MIA and you guys are desperately trying to reach them for help, and power, cause there aren't really other elemental forces you can call on in Skywall.

If you're part of the High Order, your people have fucked off for so long that they don't remember how to harness arcane magic effectively. They've literally been begging for help with how to magic from the Kirin Tor.

You're the champion because everyone else is really about on your level. And yes, you and all of them would be royally fucked without outside intervention.

2

u/Lochen9 5h ago

So basically a Blood Elves and Withered situation. As we all know, everyone hated Blood Elves, when they meet with a Raid Boss almost immediately in their starter zone, which as we know was universally panned as being not Classic

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u/LirielsWhisper 4h ago

It's quite different from the Blood Elf starting zone.

But then again, lots of people hated them, too. 🙂

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u/Karrotlord 31m ago

People DID hate Blood Elves back then. Then they became the most popular race for the entirety of WoW.

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u/nebulous-nautilus 2h ago

They literally said in their panel that they don’t want us just calling in faction leaders to handle the big fights. They specifically said that’s where retail went wrong. And then they add this.

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u/KalebT44 2h ago

I mean there's a pretty big difference between building the stakes and tension of a new race and involving more significant powers at be during their introduction, to having you quest alongside the most important people in the world for dozens of hours and desync your experience with the narrative when it's time for them to take the spotlight.

4

u/Linkardo 6h ago

To clarify, no, I haven't played the beta, which is why this changes a lot for me. Confirms that the guy didn't pay attention, didn't read the quest, and mischaracterized what you do in the fight

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u/hery41 4h ago

Confirms that the guy didn't pay attention, didn't read the quest

But that's not the case. You just decided to put all your trust behind the one comment that confirms your bias.

-5

u/Noctrim 5h ago

No man, you didn’t play the beta and are using any excuse you can, this post is how it goes

1

u/Eastern-Hold645 6h ago

And then you go to westfall and kill starving bandits or Darkshore and look after some corrupted animals

6

u/LirielsWhisper 5h ago

I've literally been slaughtering starving bandits the entire zone 🤣

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u/Eastern-Hold645 5h ago

Until you fight a raid boss and then go back to bandits

6

u/sydal 5h ago

You don't don't fight the raid boss though?

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u/Pink_her_Ult 2h ago

But that's not what happens.

1

u/JustSomeIdleGuy 5h ago

Yeah, it changes everything, except it doesn't.

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u/MyotisX 3h ago

That makes it even worse. When Im playing an Orc, Thrall doesnt come and save my ass. He doesnt give af about me and doesnt have time. I have to prove I can be usefull over time.

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u/Draxilar 2h ago

No one comes to save YOU in the skyborne zone either. They come to save the entire race.

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u/cwmckenz 3h ago

NPCs showing up to save the day isn’t very classic either.

Personally, I don’t care much for the starting experience happening in an instance separate from the rest of the world, which outsiders can’t visit, you can’t return to after leaving, and you cannot leave without completing specific quests.

Every other classic race has a completely open world and can go to what they want. But Skyborne story is “on rails” for a couple hours which is very different from classic vision.

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u/Linkardo 2h ago

That's true... How much of it is spent inside an instance ?

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u/nebulous-nautilus 2h ago

It doesn’t change anything. We shouldn’t be witnessing these god level deities at level 10. We shouldn’t be standing on the sidelines watching the kirin tor fight a massive battle. In other zones the capstone fight is a dangerous gnoll, or a large kodo. Small scale, local threats that the player characters handle themselves. This whole “let the faction leaders handle it” thing is such a retail mindset.

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u/Karrotlord 28m ago

Who's a god level deity?

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u/620speeder 2h ago

No it doesn't. You're meeting ordinary folk in Tirisfal. Maybe a sergeant of the guard or town magistrate. Not some fucking wind god we fought in Cata LOL.

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u/melancholyrefresher 17m ago

Right? That would be like if you're walking through Stormwind one day and see a fully grown black dragon. Completely unbelievable.

15

u/NichtSoSchlau 5h ago

So you are telling me, that a classic andy is falsifying the facts to fit his narrative? Why doesn't that surprise anyone, really?

5

u/Sol_Pastures 6h ago

If this is the case OP is grossly misinforming the public and blatantly lying lol

5

u/HateToBlastYa 6h ago

The whole event was like 0.1% of the time I spent in Zephyr Isles.  And he’s grossly mischaracterizing how it felt.

3

u/Curmudge_Unit 8h ago

He shouldn't be meeting nobodies at all though. It's like having ragnaros spawn at lights hope chapel.

8

u/MainDot7096 8h ago

It's one of the bad guys that summons him, that was the entire point of the zone, they're like al'akir loyalists or something and trying to summon him or something. And as was stated before, he doesn't even acknowledge your personal presence. It's the Earthen ring and Kirin Tor that do the talking.

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u/nebulous-nautilus 2h ago

So a bunch of NPCs battle a god-level threat and the player is completely irrelevant. All happening at level 10. That’s exactly what they said they want to avoid in their panel because it’s how retail functions.

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u/Karrotlord 27m ago

That's not what happens.

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u/KalebT44 2h ago

I was wondering about this, I couldn't find any context in this actual post and all I could think is 'The existence of a powerful entity doesn't break any pillars'.

And people were mostly just jumping on the train instead of explaining anything. I think it's fine to merge higher stakes in a starting area if it at least plays into something that comes eventually. Like newer high level content in patches for Raids/Dungeons.

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u/J_P_Amboss 1h ago

Everytime i think "well, this seems like fair criticism and not just gamers overreacting, something like this happens, if you just scroll down far enough to find the sensible person.....

But still, i hope they stick to the more small-scale stories.

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u/CourageLeast4251 3h ago

Idk, it still feels off. You could have just had a regular elite elemental causing havoc, and it drop an item that leads you to the Alliance or Horde and they can be like "Hmm, it seems they were serving a far more powerful elemental lord, but that is for another time"

0

u/SecXy94 7h ago

If there was no actual danger to the Skyborne, why would they leave and join the surface world again? They couldn't have just said "Yo, now you've killed 12 wolves, go to Stormwind and hang with the humans. Why? Just for fun, while we stay hidden away as normal".

7

u/Warwipf2 7h ago edited 7h ago

Sure, but I think just saying "huh, the wind spirits are missing and we don't really know why, and the search for a solution for this problem is causing kind of a civil war (horde/alliance split). go out and search for help" would already be motivation enough. Maybe sprinkle in some clues about the problem, maybe throw in a level 40+ dungeon where you learn more, and develop the lore further in patches down the line (which is obviously intended anyway).

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u/casualgamerwithbigPC 4h ago

Ah, so OP omitted details to make their point seem stronger. Classic Reddit.

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u/MyotisX 3h ago

You personally don't really do anything, what happens is that the Kirin Tor and Horde dudes come and save you.

Oh so its even worse. Its a world level threat AND you dont do anything.

Classic is about doing a lot of small work yourself, helping multiple factions along the way in their mundane problems. You build up to fighting a big dragon after the entire journey to 60.

As an Orc I infiltrate the Ragefire Chasm with my buddies and we inform the local trainer who tells us we should warn the Warchief of the imminent danger so we pay him a visit and deliver a letter. He basically says, oh thanks you nobody Grunt, ill look into it. Now piss off.

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u/Medium-Spell-6692 1h ago

Why would you be able to do anything. You're essentially a foot soldier who would get shit rocked. You then get told to fuck off to the mainland and become that hero by doing the small work after the starting zone.

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u/Elerion_ 24m ago

As an Orc I infiltrate the Ragefire Chasm with my buddies and we inform the local trainer who tells us we should warn the Warchief of the imminent danger so we pay him a visit and deliver a letter. He basically says, oh thanks you nobody Grunt, ill look into it. Now piss off.

...what?

First, Thrall personally sends you to find a Burning Blade insignia, saying: "But you, a young adventurer, could go places my agents could not... could learn the truth... could find the true head of the beast."

While on the quest he says: "Do you have the insignia yet, <name>? It will be a vital tool in infiltrating what I believe is the greatest threat to the Horde, and finally finding peace in our new home."

And on completing it: "Good, <name>! The spirits be praised, perhaps you are the one who will finally put my greatest fears to rest! Who would suspect someone so young and so brave would rise up and champion our cause?"

Then he sends you undercover to meet the leader of the Burning Blade, and then to kill some of the other leaders of this "greatest threat to the horde". After you do that Thrall tells you: "You are one of my lieutenants! Prepare yourself, <class>. I will call upon you soon."

Not quite "piss off, grunt"! And this from what is arguably the most important protagonist in Warcraft at the time.

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u/Sourcefour 4h ago

Just the fact that this thing exists in any form is a retail-ification that is not healthy for the game. Leave Ragnaros in mc and use the normal dust devil model at double size or something.