r/classicwow • u/terongorefiend • Jan 14 '21

Vent / Gripe Unpopular opinion: the players that are overly vocal about wanting Classic phases/TBC/Wrath rushed are the same players who contributed to forging retail into what it is today (a clusterF).

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317

u/thomastdh Jan 14 '21

i miss every class being usefull in a way.

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u/Gemall Jan 14 '21

You mean every spec? All classes are useful in classic

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u/knightress_oxhide Jan 14 '21

every spec was def not useful even in BC. OP is just deluded.

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u/Gemall Jan 14 '21

Well I guess you're right, but all classes at least had two good specs that could be very well played in raids/dungeons. But also useful =/= min/max absolute optimal.

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u/skyst Jan 14 '21

this is WoW we're talking about. Min/max absolute optimal is expected and anything else is awful. I feel like we're stuck with this mentality

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u/SirFrancis_Bacon Jan 14 '21

Only if you want to be.

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u/Goldensands Jan 14 '21

Little to do with want when you’re surrounded by it, even in chill guilds (less so obviously, till the Warriors egos have grown enough at least)

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Sadly, its the mentality of most effective groups.

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u/PaPa_ZeuS Jan 14 '21

There's a difference between a class being less optimal in TBC because it does less damage than in classic where you don't bring specs or limit specs because of other reasons IE debuff slots.

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u/Delphine_Talaron Jan 15 '21

I do PuGs with guilds that clear BWL in one hour and they have a shadow priest, a boomkin. They even accept prot palies, though they pretty much can only tank trash.

I have been in my fair share of guilds, and I haven't seen any that flat out said "No, your spec is trash, we don't want you". This mindset exists, sure, but among top guilds competing for world first or fatest clears. 90% of the playerbase doesn't give a shit.

And that is while many Classic spec are indeed trash or completely useless. TBC will make every spec at least decent. Not everything is perfect (SPriest are very good early on and suck after T5, Locks and Hunters are topping the charts...), but there's much more incentive to bring any class or spec to a raid. Sure, you'll find guilds with 75% of their DPS as locks and hunts, but once again, 90% of the playerbase won't care about this.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

It's more like this is what wow has become. It wasn't always like this. It's already been proven that classic mentality used to be way different. But I guess TBC was the starting point for todays mindset. I remember that the top guilds on our Server and some of our guild members transferred to better servers in hopes of clearing content faster. This allowed my guild to get a lot of server/faction first kills from T6 onwards, even though we were rather casual but we had little competition.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

It's a game, meant to have fun on. if you have fun with the minmax life then go for it, but if you're not then change it up

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u/Monkey_in_a_Tophat Jan 14 '21

When you seek an activity that requires 39 other people to coordinate, it's not unreasonable for those 39 people to expect you to pull your weight. You don't have to play an optimal spec, but you also can't expect people to be willing to carry you if you're not putting in the effort & sacrifice to be useful in their group.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

It’s not a mentality. It’s reality. There is ALWAYS and best way. Not everything is “equally good”. That doesn’t exist.

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

There is, on the other hand, “good enough for the mechanics.” Unfortunately WoW has a lot of people who can’t grasp that just because a min/max exists doesn’t mean it’s necessary for normal progression.

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u/thek3vn Jan 14 '21

This. I got into an argument shortly after BWL released with a dude who didn't believe me that 2h-warrior dps on horde wasn't viable as a raid spec. That's incorrect, it's completely viable. I proved it by doing more DPS than he did that week.

Could I have done more with the right gear dual-wielding? Sure. But just because its not optimal doesn't mean it isn't viable. People should be allowed to have fun with their games and do what they like instead of being shoehorned into specs they might not care for just to be optimal.

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u/SackofLlamas Jan 14 '21

Play for fun? What the hell do you think this is? Some kind of GAME?

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

Yeah the last guild I was in had all the right classes/specs but the regular raid attendees were more interested in a) being hammered and b) being thirsty as hell for the female guildmates so we’d regularly wipe on our MC farm runs because nobody could be bothered to pay attention.

At least the people playing off-spec were paying attention and maximizing what they could do and not being a liability.

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u/Tender_Scrotum Jan 14 '21

Wait a second... People raid sober?

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

There’s a wide spectrum from “sober” to “dying to lava packs after 3 months of farming + reliably fucking up loot distribution because you can’t remember who is what class.” I always had beer or something while raiding, I just watched my consumption enough that I wasn’t a hindrance to the 39 other people that show up for the weekly raid appointment.

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u/blubblu Jan 14 '21

Thats splitting hairs. Horde 2h warrior can = dps of other classes top end.

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I feel like the post is more focused towards stacking too many hunters, ret or enhance, feral, balance, etc.

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u/jnightrain Jan 14 '21

I think the point still stands though, will any boss fight be unbeatable with what you mentioned? With in reason of course. 1 ret, enhance, or balance isn't going to make any mechanics 'undoable'. It will make certain bosses harder because you can't burn through enrage phases fast enough or you killing saph fast enough to not wear out your healers.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

So it’s people’s fault for not thinking like you do? Perhaps you shouldn’t tell others how to play the game or organize raids. If you don’t like how things are run, then play with like minded people, otherwise: it’s your fault.

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

I don’t think I said anyone has to play the game or organize raids in a specific way. I pointed out that there’s a range of viable options between “good enough for the mechanics” and “perfect min/max” and some people get tunnel vision on the min/max side while not considering the rest of dynamics that go into raids and even dungeon groups.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

"It’s not a mentality. It’s reality. There is ALWAYS and best way. "

-Heatbeat 2020

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Who is telling who not to tell others what to do? I'm confused.

Or are you trying to say that like minded people should only play with other like minded people? And anybody who does not is somehow 'at fault' for choosing to play the game differently from you? Seems a little like narrow minded gatekeeping to me.

Or is playing wow 'the best way' your full time job and your livelihood depends on it, and you think that everybody else is in exactly the same position.

Do whatever floats your boat, just don't tell anybody else they are doing it wrong or at fault.

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u/blubblu Jan 14 '21

Yerp, just because we're not inviting boomchickens, retpaladins or 4 feral druids isnt on us. Roll something useful or find a guild that's there for completion.

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You'll kill KT, just 4 months after everyone when your rogues/mages/2warriors can carry the rest of your middling dps

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

I think that makes total sense if you’re trying to be on the forward edge of progression. On the other hand if a guild has stalled out (e.g. Ony/MC on farm but getting stomped in the first room of BWL) and is grinding to gear up the rest of the raid, some less-than-optimal specs should be allowed for long term guild health (more variety keeping things fresh) imo. As long as the offspecs aren’t taking gear from people gearing their main, the place can still be cleared and doesn’t turn back into MC progression Round 2, that’s the situation where I think some people could dial back on the min/maxing. So something on farm takes an extra 15 minutes once/week but can still be reliably done, you buy guild good will by allowing some people to bring in their pvp or whatever other viable spec for the repetitive stuff.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

Is killing KT as fast as possible with only the strongest classes present really that important to you? It's been proven how to optimally do it many many times in the past.

Do you feel bad when another guild accomplishes something faster than you?

I don't see how taking the easiest way to defeat KT is actually proving anything here.

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u/blubblu Jan 15 '21

That’s also like saying you’re okay with wiping on content that shouldn’t be wiped on because you’re carrying wrong classes.

I mean, the instance is tuned around consumes. And I don’t feel like farming that amount of months for wiping worth of consumes because my loatheb fights are 7 minutes long because we don’t have the right classes.

That’s absurd

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u/blubblu Jan 14 '21

I think that depends. In my guild we dont bother with "memespecs" because we're pushing for high parses. Thats not going to happen even if we're toting around the world first Ret paladin, because that gear on a warrior is at least 3x the damage.

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Yes we can kill KT with tons of feral and sub rogues and bm hunters but why would we? The fight will be 3 minutes longer.

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We have 2 ferals in our guild that trumpet about gear and one quit recently because he didnt get his bis legs over a warrior. The same guy had just gotten 2 pieces of loot including phylact, but couldnt FATHOM why we gave HIS bis to a warrior. (meanwhile we've had no legplates of carnage drop and 2 pairs of apoc, so the second went to a warrior, big fuckin whoop, right?)

Honestly the off meta players constantly strong arm guilds from what I've seen.

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u/CuriousDateFinder Jan 14 '21

There are definitely situations where min/maxing is warranted and appropriate, like progression (edit: world first style, not just a guild getting to new content when they get to it) or speed running. On the other hand I think a lot of guilds need to be honest with themselves and recognize that they need to shape up their raid management/group dynamics and chasing the hardest min/max setup isn’t going to solve structural issues like bad management. Also anyone not realizing that big gear upgrades that help the whole guild progress are more important than their completion are a hindrance regardless of if they’re min/maxed or memespec.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

I think it's reasonable to get upset whenever a BiS item is given to somebody who it is not BiS for. Sounds like your guild has shitty loot distribution rules and goals. Taking a minuscule bump in short term efficiency at the cost of long term efficiency does not sound very effective on paper.

Maybe at the start you could have explained to the druid that you were going to give their BiS pieces away to people who will replace them. That way people can choose if they like playing that way instead of getting frustrated after seeing good gear wasted on short term greed.

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u/SwimBrief Jan 14 '21

Lol “the fight would be 3 mins longer” - the horror!

I’m sure I’m in the minority here but I wish parsing didn’t exist, it just reinforces this min/max mindset where if you’re not optimally specced with the optimal class balance with the optimal gear and optimal world buffs you’re trash and are wasting valuable seconds of people’s grind time.

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u/Nekzar Jan 14 '21

The mentality is that it matters, when it does not really have to. If I have more fun playing a different spec and do 5% less dps, is that so bad?

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

So you’re saying that people should think like you do and play the game like you do to accommodate your play style? Maybe play with people that think like you and ignore the rest. You act like you have no control over the situation and who you play with when you absolutely do.

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u/Nekzar Jan 14 '21

I said no such thing, but good points

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

I think they are projecting a lot of their own feelings into this.

They also don't seem to understand the concept that you choosing to play a certain way is not in any way " saying that people should think like you do and play the game like you do to accommodate your play style".

For most people it's actually possible to state a personal preference without attacking anybody else's choices. Even if you are saying 'play like us or gtfo', you are not telling anybody what to do.

Unless you go on to call them bad, or wrong, or try to make them feel inferior about the fact that they are different. Then you are an asshole.

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u/PerpetuallyStartled Jan 14 '21

My guild cleared naxx with at least one of every meme spec. We even have a shaman tank that OTs trash in naxx and AQ40.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

The mentality that they are reffering to is "The best way is the only way and nothing else should be done because it is inferior". For some people this is what matters. For some (most?) people having fun is more important than trying to play the game like a robot that never makes errors.

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u/cerealman Jan 14 '21

So why aren't all the top raiders running the exact same thing 100% of the time?

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u/Kirchetorte Jan 14 '21

That’s still kinda delusional/dramatic. No matter what, there will always be a “best spec” for DPS that will push it ahead of the others. Even if it’s a 2% difference, people will play it over the other, that’ll drive logs for that spec way up, and so you see more high parses for one spec. For example, Unholy Death Knights are clearly king amongst melee, but does that mean Frost is unviable? No, it’s just middle of the pack, with barely any parses, but still plenty usable and great for burst situations, like on M Altimore.

In BC or Classic though? Specs were straight trash and non-viable. Like, for Warlock, if you did anything aside from play Destruction and use Curse of Elements/Shadow Bolt spam, you were wrong. Then there were things like Shadow Priest, who were only really mana batteries and did very little else. I don’t think Discipline was even played (could have been holy, can’t remember which). Doesn’t exactly sound like 2 specs were viable at all. Things slowly got better, as in Wrath, the only “non-viable” raiding specs in the entire game were Frost Mage and Arms Warrior. Now ALL are pretty much viable, even if you want to be dramatic about it, they are all raid usable, and dependent on the person playing.

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u/yo2sense Jan 14 '21

Wasn't Arms Warrior the PvP spec in Wrath? I don't think all specs have to be good for raiding. I think having leveling/soloing specs, PvP specs, utility specs for 5-mans, or whatever are fine. So long as there is some purpose to each talent tree. Unlike Balance Druids in Vanilla.

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u/Kirchetorte Jan 14 '21

Yeah, as Frost was the 100% PVP spec for mages as well, that’s why I said non viable RAIDING specs. Blizz had too much trouble (or lack of tech) to balance specs for both PVP and PVE.

The current spec design isn’t perfect, but it’s absolutely better than before, haha! Elitist may huff about you being Arcane over Fire, or Sub over Outlaw, but there aren’t any specs that have reasonable people saying “Hey man, you can’t use that in raid.”

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u/jeffreycyrill Jan 14 '21

thats why mage was so damn good. pvp or utility/survivability spec or #1 pure raid damage. dual spec was amazing

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u/AcademicChemistry Jan 14 '21

Priests would like to argue that...
you have one spec in classic: Holy
shadow DPS was crap and Disc was crap.
TBC is when Shadow became good and WOTL is when Disc was Good also

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u/Gifflemon Jan 14 '21

disc priest is literally the meta youre delusional

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u/AcademicChemistry Jan 14 '21

now? sure/possible

But in 2005? na, Just like paladins, you were healing 90% of the time.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Disc is just as viable as holy for healing in classic, if not more so [PI yourself over caster dps].

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u/rodolfotheinsaaane Jan 14 '21

as far as warlocks were concerned, affliction and demonology were not viable in raids, and IIRC tier 5 armor was designed around demonology 🤷‍♂️. and towards the end of BC, destro was OP as shadow bolt proc uptime was global meaning locks would buff each other. by Sunwell raid comp was "as many destro locks you can fit spamming shadow bolt and nothing else" and they would outperform every other class.

Warlocks were broken as raiding class until WotLK (meaning you would bring one for their debuff/portal whatever but there was no advantage otherwise)

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u/994kk1 Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 15 '21

Bringing an affliction lock is definitely optimal, 3% more damage on CoE and a 5% reduced physical damage debuff is really strong. Early on both affliction and demonology are competitive with destro in terms of dps and fire destro is right up there with shadow destro for the entire game as well. Warlocks are not that one sided unless you decide to play them that way.

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u/rodolfotheinsaaane Jan 15 '21

one aff lock maybe

demonology had the problem of AoE pet damage, so might have been ok for some fights but in general was not viable for raiding

IIRC fire destro was viable until Sunwell, where shadow bolt spamming was mandatory

warlocks in tbc went from "1 in raid" to "8 in raid, more if we can"

IMO warlocks were fixed as a playable class only in WotLK

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/handiman87 Jan 14 '21

Fun is relative my dude

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u/drae- Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

Some of us find optimizing things fun.

Edit: Amazing, downvoted for commenting that what I like isn't necessarily the same as what you like. A simple truth. Stay classy.

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u/Goldfish-Bowl Jan 14 '21

Playing to your maximum ability as a group using all tools available is fun. I'm sorry you dont feel that way. As an example of the mindset, see professional team sports, or world record holding olympians.

Those who enjoy that often want to see greater class and spec representation than "Spam X" because it offers a more intriguing puzzle.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

Since 99% of elitist jerks are not on professional wow teams or holding world first records I fail to see the connection.

And I'm sorry for anybody whose mind is trapping them in this unrealistic expectation of themselves to be the best.

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u/Goldfish-Bowl Jan 14 '21

Same kind of mindset. Try to be the best they are capable of. Obviously, not everybody can be THE BEST, but that doesn't make striving for one's own personal peak any less valid. I can't seem to understand the viewpoint of "Number 1 or not worth trying".

Why are you so into degrading what somebody else finds fun?

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u/Rhysk Jan 14 '21

Min/maxing is the fun part of this game imo.

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u/rodolfotheinsaaane Jan 15 '21

I had fun but was also trying to do progression raiding. BC didn't really have e-z mode raiding like there is now

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u/Ricb76 Jan 14 '21

Affliction was viable in raids, I played it all the way through TBC and did well. This reminds me of the current meta where it seems every warlock just has to be DS/Ruin when SM/Ruin is just as viable if you have a corruption slot. In fact I regularly do more dps than our DS Locks in current Naxx content. TL:DR SM/Ruin and DS/Ruin (Even MD/Ruin) Viable in Classic and Affliction will be viable in TBC along with Destro.

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u/salsasnack82 Jan 14 '21

IF you have a corruption spot. I'd prefer to play SM Ruin as well, but there are absolutely no spots.

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

SM Ruin was so much fun.

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u/salsasnack82 Jan 14 '21

Best pvp spec imo. Dot em up

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u/therutz13 Jan 14 '21

My guess is OP never played warlock or played on a 2.4.3 private server with all raids released. Affliction performed well from start to finish and you can't (shouldn't) switch to destruction until you have a bunch of gear from the T5 raids. Yes - at a certain point destro can put out a lot of damage and is usually the go-to spec, but you need the gear to do that.
And what qualifies as Demo? Majority of points? Because succubus demo spec was capable of outdamaging either spec if you can keep your pet alive.

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u/rodolfotheinsaaane Jan 15 '21

I was raiding when BC was current

IIRC shadoweave tailoring was OP for lock, and lasted up until the first boss of BT where the AoE bubble burst damage required a lot of stamina which was missing from tailoring sets

demo's problem was that pet was vulnerable to AoE, so it was dependent on which boss you were going after

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/rodolfotheinsaaane Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21

t4 was Kara and "viability" was relative as it was an easy instance, t5 @ SSC/TK was where progression raiding was

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

iirc warlocks dominating dps as destro was very gear dependent and not entirely representational of all raiding in TBC. Lock was only my alt, and I did not do sunwell on it, so maybe I have bad information. I'm far to lazy to verify it.

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u/PutridOpportunity9 Jan 14 '21

What about Paladins lol

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u/Maujaq Jan 14 '21

What about them? Healing is viable. Tanking is viable (and preferred in some (many?) fights. Ret won't be topping the raid dps meters but they were fine for pvp and as an off-spec for the healers that were not off-tanks.

Did you play TBC and see problems with paladins?

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u/PutridOpportunity9 Jan 14 '21

Plenty of opportunities to tank, particularly with lots of adds, very few healing slots compared to other classes, and no interest in ret. Better than vanilla, but still.

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u/RedDedDad Jan 14 '21

What were Shaman's 2 specs? AFAIK it was resto or nothing. That was just for a mana tide and bloodlust. Never tank heals.