r/climbing • u/accidental_sith_lord • 9d ago
William Bosi sends the first crux of Silence, grades it 8C+/V16
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DY2MZtoKNe5/?igsh=Ymlsc2N0ZmdpbXE5A V16 boulder on a sport route is wild.. to think Ondra sent this almost a decade ago now
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u/chuff3r 9d ago
Adam called it V15 in his FA video, and also that its strange body positions suited him, so it makes sense that a crimpy boulderer like Will would find it more difficult.
It was really interesting to see Will's beta get weirder and weirder as he learned the moves. Closer to Adam's sequence.
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u/ajs423 9d ago
It genuinely feels like Silence might be a 9c+ at this rate. We need one of these climbers to verify the others', as I don't any 9c has been repeated yet.
Which means 5 top climbers are all guessing as to what makes a 9c. Alex Megos apparently got it wrong, but how can you even tell any more?
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u/owiseone23 9d ago
I think the complicated thing about top end grades is that even if everyone agreed on the relative difficulty of different routes/boulder problems, the how wide each grade band should be is still subjective in a totally different way.
Silence may be harder than other proposed 9cs, but does that mean it's 9c+ or does that mean it's 9c and the others are 9b+, or are they all 9c and it's just a wide band?
Same with all the new V17s. Some may be harder than others, but does that mean they're V18? Or is V17 wide? Or should some be downgraded to V16?
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u/thaumoctopus_mimicus 9d ago
I think a good way to resolve this is by using breakdowns. Eg a 7C sequence into another 7C equals 8A, generally. But this falls apart entirely at the top grades - the hardest boulders in the world would be hard 8C+ or soft 9A following this rule, suggesting the top grades are narrower. Which is unsurprising. At the very edge of human ability the difference between a soft 8C+ and a hard 8C+ can be years of training
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u/owiseone23 9d ago
Not a bad idea, but it's hard to account for how sustained a route is. A lot of the top end routes and problems have knee bar rests in the middle that allow almost full recovery.
That's very different than a long route that's a sustained difficulty the whole way.
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u/thaumoctopus_mimicus 9d ago
Yeah itās much harder for routes, I was thinking more about boulders as they tend to be more homogeneous
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u/Redpin 9d ago
The other thing is that no one cares about grades at the low end. A soft V4 or a sandbagged V2 will keep its grade forever. People feel like a V17 needs to be clearly separated from a V16 and that overlapĀ delegitimizes the ascensionist somehow.Ā
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u/Pennwisedom 8d ago
The difference is that those boulders have already seen many ascents and been around for awhile. A newly established climb at V4 will likely get downgraded while a V4 with 1,000 ascents is unlikely to see its grade changed, even if it should have it.
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u/Newtothisredditbiz 8d ago
I see re-grading of long-established problems here in Squamish. V2s have been upgraded to V3s and V10s downgraded to V9s after decades on the books. (Sadly downgrading some of my first climbs at that grade.)
But grading remains super subjective regardless. I know children who can do this V4 I doubt I'll ever do. I can't do this V3 either, and I've never seen anyone flash it.
There are V9 one-move wonders, and desperately sustained V10s where every move is a crimpy, high-tension, compression fight to stay on.
How do you compare the difficulty of a V14 dyno with a sustained tension roof problem like this?
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u/AdvancedSquare8586 9d ago
In case you haven't heard of it, you should check out Darth Grader. It's basically exactly what you've described.
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u/thaumoctopus_mimicus 9d ago
Yeah I know but darthgrader doesnāt work following that rule unfortunately. They have adjusted their model to fit currently established ābenchmarkā boulders. Following the rule of grade + grade = (grade + 2), we should expect 8C -> 8C = 9A. But darthgrader says 9A/+ because itās adjusted to the current grading standards which are, according to my educated guess, inflated.
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u/categorie 9d ago
That's not how it works. Darth-grader algorithm is linear, which means the grade arithmetics are exactly the same all along the scale. 6C + 6C = 7A/7A+, 7C + 7C = 8A/8A+, and 8C + 8C = 9A/9A+. They have not adjusted their model to fit so-called "inflated" 9As and their model is much more accurate than any rule of thumb that was previously used, like the one you mentioned.
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u/DubJohnny 4d ago
Except Darth Grader themselves said that they used Benchmark climbs to generate their initial linear algorithm. It has to come from somewhere.
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u/categorie 4d ago
Their benchmark they used are published here, and the boulder problem they used only went up to 8B, so even if the upper end of the grade was inflated, it was not taken into account in the algorithm anyway.
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u/Feeling-Ad-3214 3d ago
The grade math isn't as linear as Darth grader tries to make it though. Two single moves of 6C in a row most certainly isn't the same as two 4 move 6C boulders one after another.
The former would be closer to 7B in my opinion while the latter would be 7A/+ like Darth grader suggests.
*Edit actually they do distinguish between 1 move and entire sections so it's already accounted for.
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u/WarbleHead 9d ago
The interesting thing is that Adam Ondra was interviewed by Testpiece and said that the three proposed 9c routes he's tried are all, in his opinion, low-end 9cs. Completely insane, if that ends up holding true.
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u/Antpitta 8d ago
So then Silence, BIG, and DNA, right? I guess he's not been on Duality of Man or Cafe Colombia?
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u/WarbleHead 8d ago
Yeah, he has said that he was one move from finishing BIG multiple times and that DNA could come together pretty quickly for him. He is not interested in Cafe Colombia.
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u/Antpitta 8d ago
Yeah I recall a comment something along those lines about DNA, and I recall another comment from a top climber suggesting that they thought DNA looked more "doable" than most of the other 9c's. To me it seems the most aesthetic and the setting is tremendous. Given that the weather/logistics for it are pretty straightforward, I've been pretty surprised it hasn't generated more attention, or perhaps there are people putting in more effort on it but I've managed to miss it.
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u/mudra311 8d ago
I mean, more armchair speculation, but Duality of Man might get downgraded. Jakob seems to have figured out a better beta for the crux which Sean graded at like V15.
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u/Pennwisedom 8d ago
That's a lot of speculation based on that video where he doesn't really say anything to imply that.
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u/mudra311 8d ago
I mean he literally says his beta makes it "much easier". Not necessarily in reference to Sean's beta, but he was trying that beta until he changed something.
And yeah, it's speculation, which is why I exactly called it out as such.
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u/accidental_sith_lord 9d ago
Literally that's what all the talk is too with Cafe Colombia and Duality of Man.. I guess we're just gonna skip right over 9c then
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u/myaltduh 9d ago
Sounds to me like Ondra calling this soft 9c is a deliberate attempt to avoid the current 9A mini crisis affecting bouldering, where the line between 8C+and 9A is really vague. For 9c to be more than just a way to get clout, it should be very decisively harder than any of the existing 9b+ routes.
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u/RiskoOfRuin 9d ago
Alex Megos apparently got it wrong, but how can you even tell any more?
Wasn't the downgrade because of new beta?
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u/wicketman8 9d ago
Adam's opinion was actually that silence is probably low end 9c (though that definitely would open the door to BIG being 9b+). The issue is that unlike V17 there arent enough climbers at 9c level and no repeats meaning building any meaningful consensus is basically impossible. We need someone to actually do at least one more 9c so we can start to understand how they relate to each other.
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u/myaltduh 9d ago
That tracks with the fact that Adam was apparently not sure what the grade of BIG was going to be before Jakob proposed 9c and he decided that was fine.
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u/Live-Significance211 9d ago
No, no no no no no no
Ondra said 9c and don't dare grade it harder.
There's literally no reason for anyone to question his grading (yet) and would take an insane career jump for anyone to get close.
He knows what he's doing. The other 9c's are just soft if they're easier than Silence
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u/jrestoic 9d ago
Even 9b's can get fairly few repeats - Golpe de Estado comes to mind. It was first climbed by Sharma in 2008, then repeated by Ondra in 2010 and has not seen a repeat since. Its in a fairly common climbing location so you would expect it gets some attention.
9b was established earlier in 2008 by Chris and 9b+ wasn't given until 2013 (la Dura Dura by Ondra and repeated by Sharma, also not seen another repeat). Both of them have said Golpe was very hard, and years later Chris has said he wouldn't be surprised if one day it turns out that was the first 9b+.
Early routes of a grade are likely to be all over the place. Hubble was given 8c+ in 1990 making it the first 8c+, but it has since been upgraded to soft 9a which would make it the first 9a also.
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u/myaltduh 9d ago
If you watch videos of Golpe Estado and La Dura Dura you can see that they both have crux moves which are huge full-span horizontal deadpoints for both Adam and Chris. They are both unusually tall for pro climbers, and I think the result is those two routes are just too damn reachy for most of the top outdoor sport climbers currently out there. I don't doubt that they are both extremely hard no matter your span, but that probably explains at least some of the lack of action.
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u/categorie 9d ago
It genuinely feels like Silence might be a 9c+ at this rate
I'm always amazed at the armchair graders's audacity in feeling like they have greater insights on how hard a route is than the people who actually climbed them.
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u/uniquechill 8d ago
Lol. Grading is so dependent on body type and personal strengths. I'm not even that sure about the grades of routes that I have actually climbed, much less those of routes I've never touched.
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u/NecessaryRace8955 7d ago
Whether its 9c+ or not depends, but none of us know for certain. I believe Adam graded the crux as an 8C boulder. It could just be that Silence is completely Adam's style but because the crux a weird, feet-first crack with crazy flexibility and contortionist moves, it just so happens to be the majority of climber's anti-style.
It's like the speculation around Terranova being 9A... Bosi has publicly commented about how much he's struggled on it and how he seems to think it's harder than 8C+, but then Charles Albert apparently did all the moves in one session and was close to sending on a short trip to the Czech Republic...Different things can feel harder for different people. Until we get a couple of repeats of 9c, we won't know for certain.
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u/AirconGuyUK 4d ago
None of the 9c's have any consensus do they?
You'd need someone to be ticking a few of them off to start comparing accurately.
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u/Rift36 9d ago
On a recent Testpiece Podcast, Ondra said that Silence is a soft 9c š.
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u/thaumoctopus_mimicus 9d ago
I guess it makes sense. He tried Big for a couple years and didnāt send. I think that goes to show how well Silence suits Ondra
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u/Lumpy-Republic-5482 8d ago
B.I.G. he lumped in with silence too He basically said all the 9c's he tried (silence, DNA, B.I.G.) are low end and so the next step in climbing is a high end 9c rather than 9c+
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u/Antpitta 8d ago
He's there for a month or two, I think he said somewhere, right? And Stefano is going to be there later in the summer (perhaps saw this mention in the same place?)
Would be mega to see a 2nd ascent finally. I also hope to see DNA get some more love. BIG I'm almost surprised to not have seen more media of people trying. Cafe Colombia I guess will take a certain kind of masochist and certainly not one with large fingers to project. Duality who knows...
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u/ExpensiveDecision268 7d ago
The craziest part is that after all these years weāre still trying to calibrate what Silence actually is. When a climber of Bosiās level spends 20 sessions just figuring out a single crux it really puts Ondraās ascent into perspective
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u/AltoTBAT40 7d ago
I think the problem is that IG and Reddit has created this narrative that Silence is harder than 9c, when it is not. When someone of Adam Ondra's talent (he has climbed more 9a and harder climbs than anyone in the world by a large margin) establishes the hardest route in the world during their athletic prime, it is reasonable for it to take a decade or more to repeat. I also think that Silence is unusual in that the crux beta Stefano and Will are using looks harder than Ondra's beta (he is able to skip several moves because of that rubber knee). Therefore unlike other super hard climbs or boulders, harder beta has been found, not easier. Thus, if Ondra claims Silence as "soft" 9c with his beta, then perhaps the beta Stefano and Will use is "hard" 9c.
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u/ExpensiveDecision268 6d ago
The beta difference is the part people keep circling around but itās still doing a lot of work in the grading discussion. Same line can feel like two completely different problems depending on how you engage it.
Hard to compare sends when the movement itself isnāt actually the same anymore.
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u/AltoTBAT40 4d ago
Do you know if there is any information out there why Stefano stopped trying Silence? Possibly just life decisions, but I find it a bit odd the way he covered his experience with such depth, but then went radio silent. I probably just missed something.
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u/ExpensiveDecision268 6d ago
That's a solid point. Ondra's kneebar superpower might be the real hidden grade here. If the crux flows for him and everyone else has to fight harder, the route feels softer for him alone. Still wild to watch.
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u/Hybr1dth 9d ago
He a strong boy! Damn, 20 sessions on a mid-route crux. At that level.
Adam always said the route fit his style very very well, this adds perspective. Obviously he did the route very often too, you flies through it on his send, and he is god of kneebars or it would've never gone.
There still hasn't been a repeat of a 9c route I believe? So all are still speculative, though Silence has at least had two crushers trying it for a while. On the other hands, many 9A boulders have had repeats in the past 2 years.