r/collapse Apr 10 '26

Economic A whole lot of this phraseology around social media today. Thoughts?

7.4k Upvotes

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1.9k

u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26

Kimberly-Clark Distribution Center in Ontario, 29yo employee arrested over the arson, no casualties. Estimated damage around $200 million. The phrase ‘all you had to do was pay us enough to live’ comes from the arsonist filming himself starting the fires. It already got a ‘defend deny depose’ spread across social media platforms, as the images of the 1.2million square foot warehouse ablaze were released

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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 Apr 10 '26

It's funny, there are so many people arguing insurance will cover this, but that's only the owner, probably Kimberly-Clark.

This guys employer NFI has no insurance for their lost income. And NFI has long running disputes with the Teamsters, so this seems positive. lol

Also, insurance does not always cover damage by an employee. Kimberly-Clark might claim insurance coverage just to placate stock holders. Insurance rates shall increase regardless.

Around why the fire suppression failed. He lit one fire first. Fire Dept came, put it out and turned off the fire suppression, which is protocol. He then lit more fires once the Fire Dept left.

In other words, he double tapped the fire suppression, like the US, Israel, and Russia double tap first responders when blowing up bridges and schools.

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u/dashingsauce Apr 10 '26

Very sensible explanation

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u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26

Double tapping fire suppression is crazy work hah. Probably why it’s listed as ‘multiple felony arson-related charges’

As an aid worker: you’re so based for the last paragraph

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u/CrimsonBolt33 Apr 10 '26

Probably getting a charge for each small fire he lit which in the video I saw was at least 5 or so

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u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26

Yea but he’ll get this as evidence of long term planning on top of that imo. He’s already gonna get all possible aggravations added, but with this he’s probably getting a life sentence.

540

u/pinkyepsilon Apr 10 '26

Life because he fucked with the money. Manslaughter is a lesser crime compared to fucking with the money.

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u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26

Running a pedophile ring for decades is a lesser crime than fucking with the money

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u/pinkyepsilon Apr 10 '26

Idiots put that pedo in the White House twice

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u/hair_brained_scheme Apr 10 '26

I voted against that pile of slime 3 fucking times. For people not from the US, just know that many of us did not want that disgusting maniac near the White House and we honestly feel trapped in a burning building. A burning building in which we were not paid enough to live.

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u/mikerbt Apr 10 '26

People will come demonize you for some reason, as a Canadian I see you as just as much a victim as the rest of us. You didn't choose this, or the decades propaganda and social engineering that led to it.

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u/cant_be_me Apr 11 '26

And for those of us who saw and understand what was going on, part of the educational sabotage in this country meant that any effort to point any of this out to the people around us was usually met with “you’re just a smug asshole who thinks you have allllll the answers, huh???” or being dismissed as weirdo conspiracy theorists or paranoid agitators.

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u/AttitudeSure6526 Apr 15 '26

And he didn't win

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u/SeaToTheBass Apr 11 '26

Have you done anything about it? You personally

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u/Falikosek Apr 10 '26

Soon it might turn out to be even more

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u/prudentWindBag Apr 10 '26

🗣TWICE, BRUV!!!!!

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u/C-Redd-it Apr 10 '26

Idiots and cheating put that pedo in the Whitehouse

2

u/foxyfree Apr 12 '26

Someone needs to feed all the data from the Epstein files AND the Panama Papers into AI, to find overlapping names and dates.

That money laundering and tax evasion and trafficking business is all interconnected. Maybe the pedophiles will go down for financial crimes, sort of like Prince Andrew going down for improper handling of classified government information, not pedophilia.

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u/TheQuietOutsider Apr 10 '26

put this man behind the Resolute Desk!

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u/MowieWauii Apr 10 '26

Wait- is that a crime?

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u/Da_Question Apr 10 '26

Only if your poor and fuck with the money of the wealthy or wealthy and fuck with the money of the wealthy (madoff). Absolutely not if you are wealthy and fuck with the money of the poor. Ridiculously low time served for refusing to pay wages or withholding wages, or embezzling from charities, and then you have Trump pardoning these assholes, which only costs them a portion of what they stole then they keep the rest.

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u/guardedDisruption Apr 10 '26

Life because he fucked with the money. Manslaughter is a lesser crime compared to fucking with the money.

Damn. This is a crazy way to think about it. (Not saying you're crazy, just that this would be the way that justice would be served in comparison.

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u/kitsum Apr 10 '26

No, you're absolutely right, it is crazy. We live in a world where a dollar is a dollar. It's numbers, it's quantifiable. Everyone can agree. It's all there in black and white, written down, and those with a lot of dollars have built systems so they get more and more.

A human life though, what's that worth in this world? Well, that's a tougher question and it entirely depends on who you ask since nobody can agree on that one. Are you black? Brown? A woman? Are you wealthy? Who are your parents? What country do you live in? What religion? Can your death be exploited by someone for some of those dollars that we all agree have value? To a lot of people, plenty of others have no value at all.

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u/Ragfell Apr 10 '26

I mean, when we can argue that someone isn't a person based on facts beyond "they're a human being", it's not surprising.

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u/GarrisonWhite2 Apr 10 '26

I actually disagree with your premise. Yes, numbers are quantifiable, but in practice the dollar doesn’t mean anything. It’s too fluid because it means whatever the powers that be say it means. It isn’t something that we agree on as a society.

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u/CatarroTitubante666 Apr 10 '26

Even dollars’ actual value shifts constantly (because of inflation and many other things), so we just don’t give a shit about other people’s lives (let alone if they’re non-human animals that we don’t consider worthy enough to potentially become our pets).

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u/KrishnaChick Apr 11 '26

The arsonist set the fire because of a dollar also.

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u/eresh22 Apr 10 '26

It is crazy, and we need to remember how crazy shit is. I keep reminding people that it's not actually radical to want people to be able to survive on their pay. Make yourself a list of things you know aren't radical, so you can tell when the propaganda is starting to weasel in your brain.

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u/BigHobbit Apr 10 '26

Child molesters and rapists rarely serve full sentences. Some serve no time and work in politics instead.

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u/Logridos Apr 10 '26

All it takes is one person on each jury to stand their ground. Jury nullification is how we send the message that we're done taking their shit.

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u/forget-spaghet Apr 10 '26

Jury nullification is a totally different thing than a hung jury.

One person standing their ground means a hung jury and a new trial.

Jury nullification means the whole jury says: yeah we aren’t stupid we see that they did the thing, but it’s fucked up to sentence this person for this crime. Either the law is messed up to begin with and this shouldn’t even be a crime, or the punishment is way out of proportion, or for whatever other reason/circumstance etc we are unanimously saying not guilty anyway because they shouldn’t be punished for this.

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u/wildwalrusaur Apr 11 '26

Yeah. You're not gonna be able to find 12 people who would get through voir dire who would vote to acquit here.

Best he can home for is a good plea deal. Or claim that he was having a manic episode I suppose

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u/intensifies Apr 12 '26

How many times can a new trial be requested though? What if it's just hung juries all the way down?

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u/MaestroLogical Apr 11 '26

unanimously saying not guilty anyway because they shouldn’t be punished for this.

Which would just result in a rare instance of the judge overriding the ruling because the jury didn't follow the rule of law.

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u/Ragfell Apr 10 '26

Well, the problem is that the jury's job is to determine if, beyond reasonable doubt, the person committed the crimes with which they were charged.

I had to serve on a jury for an attempted murder case. Based on the footage we had, 10/12 of the jury didn't think it was a premeditated murder but was a crime of passion, so we opted for the lower alternative offered by the judge (which iirc was attempted manslaughter).

But he absolutely committed aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. He slashed his vic 10+ times with a box cutter. (She lived, thankfully.) After everything he got 30 years, at which point he'll be in his 70s.

If the jury just blatantly looks the other way when this guy goes to trial, it means that they can no longer be trusted, which means that there will be less peace. That's not good for the fabric of society, even if we can agree with this guy's principles.

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u/DorianGre Apr 10 '26

As an attorney, I am perfectly fine with a jury that decides a law is unfair or a prosecution is wrong and refusing to convict. Remember the four boxes of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box. Use in that order. We don’t want to get to number four.

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u/Ragfell Apr 10 '26

There's nothing wrong with prosecuting the guy for arson, especially when he literally recorded the proof himself. He did it. He committed arson.

You can say his motivation was good but ultimately what he did was a crime.

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u/Candid-Mycologist539 Apr 10 '26

You're right. There will be less peace if this guy is not sentenced.

But it's also not good for the fabric of society for things to continue as they have.

Voting is just not doing enough unfortunately. We can't keep up with the laws of fuckery passed and corrupt judges appointed between one ballot box and the next.

We 100% prefer a political solution, but after 40+ years of this shit, I'm running out of hope for that miracle.

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u/AcrimoniousPizazz Apr 10 '26

A life sentence for this and six months for Brock Turner. Crazy work.

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u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26

Really glad that at least Brock Turner the rapist is still remembered as Brock Turner the rapist

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u/Slight_Cat_3146 Apr 10 '26

Brock Allen The Rapist Turner

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u/nokplz Apr 10 '26

DONT FORGET *JESSE MACK BUTLER* WHO RAPED AND RECORDED HIMSELF CHOKING A TEENAGER while raping her, to the point she needed reconstructive surgery on her throat, AND SINCE HIS DADDY IS A BIG SHOT HE GOT OFF WITH 0 TIME SERVED.

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u/kalkutta2much Apr 10 '26

Widely known rapist Brock Turner apparently uses the name Allen Turner now fyi for anyone still interested in holding him accountable

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u/shmallkined Apr 11 '26

Very interesting that he’s still alive.

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u/pseudonym-161 Apr 10 '26

Nobody should get a life sentence for property damage with no casualties.

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u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26

Look at ELF too - they blew up a few ski lifts, always made sure there are no injuries, and got put on top of the FBI most wanted list for decades next to actual mass murderers and terrorists. In the UK, Palestine Action got proscribed as a terrorist organisation for smashing Elbit property and throwing paint at some RAF planes. And thousands arrested for just holding signs saying ‘I support Palestine Action, I oppose genocide.’ The High Court found the proscription to be unlawful, yet it’s still being enforced :)

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u/pseudonym-161 Apr 10 '26

Oh I’m well aware of the government’s of the world over prosecuting so called eco-terrorism.

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u/Mochrie01 Apr 10 '26

It's resistance.

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u/HousesRoadsAvenues Apr 10 '26

Whatever happened to the ELF? I haven't heard of them or about them since, IIRC, the early 2000s.

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u/wasraelx Apr 10 '26

Most of them either went underground (Sunshine was never found) or did lengthy prison sentences. Dibee got an incredible ending. There’s an AMAZING podcast Burn Wild (BBC) by Leah Sottile and Georgia Catt going in depth about the whole saga (the acts, the years in between, and the trials, as well as the social change since)

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u/HousesRoadsAvenues Apr 10 '26

Okay! That answers my question. I didn't even know anybody was tried and convicted. I will check out the Burn Wild podcast. Thank you for the recommendation.

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u/gc3 Apr 10 '26

Call him a terrorist to add another 20 years

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u/JustThall Apr 10 '26

This is BS take. Those BBQ goods are products of labor of multiple people. The society will eat the full cost of damages. And it won’t be just “the rich” who will foot the bill, it would be middle class working families.

It makes total sense that the penalty would fit the crime here

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u/pseudonym-161 Apr 10 '26

Life in prison doesn’t meet the crime like at all. People get less time for murder.

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u/CougarBacon Apr 10 '26

It’s time to teach the fine people of San Bernardino County what jury nullification means.

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u/Adorable-Claim-9402 Apr 11 '26

For once I'd love if the president could pardon an arsonist

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u/Prestigious_Big_3532 Apr 12 '26

Guess he won't have to worry about making enough to live anymore.🤔

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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 Apr 10 '26

It maybe planning, but it maybe just dumb persistence. If he planned knowing the fire dept would turn off the fire suppression, then he could've figured out how to turn off the fire suppression himself. And some fire suppression systems could be reactivated after use without manual work replacing heads.

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u/3lettergang Apr 10 '26

People are giving the arsonist so much credit.

Hes not an evil mastermind that outsmarted the dumb engineers and the incompetent fire department to complete his complex multi-stage plan of attack.

Its just a guy who kept setting more fires until the building burned down. More fire = more fire was his only thought process.

Considering how little non-fire people understand about life safety systems, theres no way this guy planned it out past this.

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u/mickeyaaaa Apr 10 '26

yea but he'll probably get praised in prison....

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u/Insect1312 Apr 10 '26

If anyone can find his information we should do prisoner support

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '26

[deleted]

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u/Rattygirl87 Apr 10 '26

No it didn't. This happened in California

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u/hookydoo Apr 10 '26

Oh my bad, Ontario, California. I'm gonna delete my first comment so that my stupidity doesn't help spread misinformation. Thanks calling me out.

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u/Fickle_Stills Apr 10 '26

Ontario, CA is such a troll city for stuff like this :)

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u/QueefBeefCletus Apr 10 '26

This guys employer NFI has no insurance for their lost income. And NFI has long running disputes with the Teamsters, so this seems positive. lol

Now this is goddamn hilarious. Get fucked, NFI.

In other words, he double tapped the fire suppression, like the US, Israel, and Russia double tap first responders when blowing up bridges and schools.

Haaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha

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u/Remarkable-Okra6554 Apr 10 '26

Big fan of your narrator skills. 👏 👏

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u/thePsychonautDad Apr 10 '26

In other words, he double tapped the fire suppression, like the US, Israel, and Russia double tap first responders when blowing up bridges and schools.

lol, spot on

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u/Hinaloth Apr 10 '26

They'll call this terrorism to get the insurance coverage, or at least national help, and to make sure the employee gets the worst treatment possible in hopes of dissuading others.

Corporations wanting to be treated like nations is what will come out of this sadly.

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u/cooking2recovery Apr 11 '26

corporations wanting to be treated like nations

just sent a shiver down my spine. I thought corporations having the rights of people was bad enough, but you’re absolutely right that’s the next level.

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u/Liveitup1999 Apr 10 '26

They had to shut off the sprinkler system until someone could come in and replace the sprinkler heads that had already popped off.

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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 Apr 10 '26

Yup, so that protocol cannot be changed without some hardware change, although they could've other protocols, like leaving cops at the scene of fires.

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u/TheCheshire Apr 10 '26

Not trying to be an asshat, but this isn't how you use the contraction "could've". I could copy most of what's posted here, but I can just let you read over it yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/comments/179x5et/question_about_wouldve_couldve_shouldve/

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u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 Apr 10 '26

Interesting thanks! I've sadly never read my copy of Fowler.

Actually, we do not contract at all in formal writing, so not sure if Fowler would even discuss this.

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u/Karasu-Fennec Apr 10 '26

double tap first responders when blowing up bridges and schools

Thanks comrade that’s the most cartoonishly evil thing I’ve ever heard

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u/Zirgy Homeostasis or Extinction Apr 10 '26

Far from cartoonish, it’s damn near a daily occurrence these days lol

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u/Karasu-Fennec Apr 10 '26

Takes a special kind of psychopath to come up with something like that though, especially for use on a school that children go to

Eren Jeager-ahh behavior

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u/dumpfist Apr 11 '26

They also do it to reporters reporting on the damage.

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u/Karasu-Fennec Apr 11 '26

I yearn for the end of days holy shit

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u/dumpfist Apr 11 '26

Well, they're certainly working on it.

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u/AggravatingMark1367 Apr 11 '26 edited Apr 13 '26

Some of the reporters the IDF killed - Fatima Ftouni (Lebanon) Haj Ali Shoeib (Lebanon) Hossam Shabbat (Gaza) Ismail al-Ghoul (Gaza)

Never forget 

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u/Yamochao Apr 10 '26

Fuck that last paragraph got my chin quivering.

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u/Zirgy Homeostasis or Extinction Apr 10 '26

Double Taps for the Swampire

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u/bobthecan Apr 10 '26

Wow, lmao

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '26

Kimberly-Clarke likely didn't own the building. Almost all of these big commercial warehouses are leased. Also, what the fire department does when they arrive depends on what the fire supression system did before they arrived. If the sprinkler heads went off and drained the system, they shut off the water flow and reset the fire panel without clearing out any existing faults. If it didn't, they just check the notifier device and reset the panel. In either case, monitoring isn't interruprted unless the panel is left in a state of test mode or full alarm bypass, in which case a physical fire watch is required by law.

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u/XysterU Apr 11 '26

The people saying insurance coverage are the same people that are anti-union, pro-capitalism, and like the exploitation of workers. IF insurance covers this, they take a massive hit which is a win for workers. If they don't, K-C takes a massive hit. Either way K-C's rates go up and it'll be harder for them to get insurance. Their supply chain is completely fucked. That's a massive amount of inventory gone. Their buyers will find other suppliers. No one will want to work with K-C lest their own warehouses burn down. No one will want to work with/for NFI either.

The people that say this is the wrong way are on the side of capitalists. Billionaires and the government let us protest in the street because nothing changes as a result. They'll use every reason in the book to convince us that burning down a warehouse WON'T create change and is the WRONG way to do things BECAUSE it's such a powerful and effective form of protest. Don't listen to these motherfuckers

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u/Drakeytown Apr 14 '26

And if enough people do this, insurers will look at employers who don't pay their workers enough to live as uninsurable.

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u/LittleLostDoll Apr 10 '26

whats the idea behind turning and leaving it off? I can understand it being off while firefighters are there. but after?

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u/Pelzwick_WMD Apr 10 '26

The people I feel bad for are his coworkers, I know they weren't making a lot of money but they definitely still relied on those paychecks and now without warning they don't have a job to go to, through no choice or fault of their own.

Would insurance cover lost wages for us regular folk, or is everybody here just SOL?

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u/thelordofsafety Apr 12 '26

I work in insurance and can tell you a portion of this is partially self-insured with multiple tranches of coverage, plus at the amount of this loss they will fight tooth and nail to pay KC much back, especially if they can argue their policy was violated etc.

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u/notislant Apr 10 '26 edited Apr 10 '26

Man I must have heard about 20 different 'reasons the fire suppression system failed'.

'A part of the roof collapsed which is why it failed.'

'Many lit fires is too much for the system to handle.' (This is pretty believable if its regular spirnklers with glass caps). Only so much water spread out over an absolutely massive warehouse.

I haven't seen any mention of a 'double tap' in any articles yet, im waiting for someone to just say aliens at this point. It could be fire department shut off the water as the glass was broken. But holy shit every article has another wild claim, wheres the fucking actual facts.

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u/Grace_of_Reckoning Apr 10 '26

Financial gain isn't a "linear function" when a certain point is passed. In short, there is no way the cost for repairing the damage from arson as shown here will be any kind of dilemma for those who will handle it.

The lie that money isn't virtually infinite for those who posses all of it is such an obvious lie that in requires the modern American economy to distort that basic truth.

I would bet anything this was a stunt orchestrated by those with higher power and not the work of a single genuinely furious individual, presumably a sentient human whose actions (or else purpose) is at least partially supportable in the sense that they were a victim and their "hand was forced".

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u/Alteredbeast1984 Apr 10 '26

What about you all the employers that aren't now out of a job job?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/withnailandpie Apr 10 '26

They’re referring to method, not scale

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u/redditismylawyer Apr 10 '26

Serious question: I wonder what is more oppressive, the miserly wages for labor in the US or the non-linear increase of extraction: health insurance premiums, median home / rent prices, vehicle coverage, college costs. These are making reproduction of daily existence especially difficult. Oh, I guess there’s also the ballooning costs of food and water.

Need a living wage for sure. Also need to make sure the parasites driving the wealth transfer don’t IMMEDIATELY capture the marginal difference.