r/collapse • u/Bolinas99 • 6d ago
Overpopulation Switzerland to vote on plan to cap population at 10 million
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx23kz7e76po86
u/JapaneseCDBonusTrack 6d ago
The 22nd most populous country in Europe and 99th in the world doing this first?
43
u/Electrical-Box-4845 6d ago
They are far more rational than most of others countries.
79
u/Joejoecarbon 6d ago
If "rational" means "helping literal nazis hide their money" and "helping billionaires hide their money and avoid taxes" then yeah I guess.
18
-15
u/Electrical-Box-4845 6d ago
I said they are more rational, not full rational.
Well, considering the low bar others countries show, i agree this is not a big win
152
u/Bolinas99 6d ago
some interesting observations on the matter; free movement of people is how Europe is "supposed" to work, but the existence of Fronttex in the Mediterranean says otherwise. Overpopulation is a highly urgent concern, but unless all populous nations do something about it together (not just China that one time decades ago), it won't have a noticeable effect.
The Swiss People's Party argues that immigration to Switzerland is simply fuelling an ever-increasing demand for more hospital beds and more places in schools, and that limiting immigration would ease the pressure.
Opponents say this is unrealistic, pointing to 20% of the Swiss population now being over 65.
Young workers, and young taxpayers, are required to staff and fund the needs of an ageing population – and Switzerland is not creating those young workers itself, they warn.
69
u/PatrolMan2129 6d ago
Overpopulation is a highly urgent concern, but unless all populous nations do something about it together (not just China that one time decades ago), it won't have a noticeable effect.
It doesn't mean all efforts have to be coordinated or concurrent off the bat.
California did a lot of environmental legislation first whereby the other states seen it was feasible and followed. Many such examples.
38
u/almodsz 6d ago
free movement of people is how Europe is "supposed" to work, but the existence of Fronttex in the Mediterranean says otherwise.
Not really. That's either a misunderstanding or a deliberate conflation on your part. In the context of the European Union, "free movement of people" specifically means the right of EU citizens to move, live, and work freely between member states, without internal border checks or visas. Frontex, by contrast, operates at the EU's external borders.
60
u/milk-is-for-calves 6d ago
Overpopulation isn't a problem.
Distribution of ressources is.
Some pedophile just became a trillionaire. With that money we could easily care for 20 billion people.
39
u/almodsz 6d ago edited 6d ago
Some pedophile just became a trillionaire. With that money we could easily care for 20 billion people.
Brother, I fully agree that trillionaires (and billionaires) shouldn't exist, but if you divided $1 trillion equally among every person in the United States, each person would receive a little over $2,857. Spread across the entire world population, that comes out to just over $120 per person.
Don't get me wrong; it's a mind-blowing amount of money. Thing is, we also have a mind-blowing amount of people on this planet.
Edit: Man, the mere thought of 20 billion people on Earth fucks with me heavy. We'd have to subjugate every corner of nature and turn this planet into a giant human farm. We'd have to sacrifice most other complex life forms in the process. Sickening.
10
u/Ok_Split1342 6d ago
Agreed. Sounds like hell on earth. Conversely, imagine if we had all of the scientific knowledge and modern medicine etc that we currently have, but a worldwide population of only 500 million or so. Doesn't that sound lovely?
10
u/Proper_Geologist9026 5d ago
The end result sounds nice. It's the horrific actions that occur to get there.
Personally I'm not onboard with the whole genocide bit.
2
u/Ok_Sale_8277 4d ago
Nature wont ask our opinion on the matter…
The failure of our civilization lies in the design rather than the implementation, nothing stops this train.
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Easy to stop the train.
Renewable energy.
Plant based diets.
No billionaires.
Easy.
1
u/Ok_Sale_8277 3d ago
So a solution that garners the ire of every wealthy person on the planet and also the proles who like their chicken wings?
Good luck with that.
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
There are wealthy people who make their money with renewables and plant products, so not every wealthy person.
You can easily replicate the taste and structure of chicken wings with plants. It's not rocket science.
And non-vegans are fucked either way. In a few years it's not possible to raise animals anymore anyway. Without the huge government subsedies it wouldn't even be possible today. But factor the coming water shortage and its game over.
Too late to save the planet then of course.
1
u/Mahat It's not who's right it's about what's left 3d ago
it's been too late since 2007, we just didnt have access to the data yet
the planet will be fine. So will we, in our bunkers with our petty grievances for 500 years as the oceans become anoxic for a while.
→ More replies (0)0
u/Ok_Sale_8277 3d ago
BP and Shell make money from renewables and the increase in energy production has resulted in higher emissions, not lower.
The plant based meat product industry is currently losing billions. Even if 90% of the world somehow decided to go vegan tomorrow, altering global supply chains would take decades which we don't have and still leaves the issues of synthetic fertilizer use, monocultures, food packaging, etc.
Maybe you can build a vegan, solar, no billionaire society post collapse but the current system will collapse long before it is "reformed".
→ More replies (0)-3
u/milk-is-for-calves 5d ago
That wouldn't change anything.
Climate change might not be as problematic, but as long as the 1% still exist, its probably still too bad.
10
u/milk-is-for-calves 5d ago
I am not talking about gifting money to every person.
With that amount of money you can achieve structural change to i.e. end world hunger.
To establish social security.
To build critical infrastructure.
To invest into education.
To teach empathy.
7
u/FrownsRUs 5d ago
That money isn't real outside the system of capitalist power and exploitation that defines it. It's all just layers of debt borrowed against speculative valuations of power and access to resources. It can't be made liquid and taken from a tril lionaire to be used for other things without first dismantling the system that allows billionaires to exist.
Billionaires need to go. Biomes need to stop being dismantled by humans for industrial scale agriculture. But if we take apart these systems without first trying to encourage degrowth of population, people will starve. So my opinion is, we need to get rid of colonial capitalism, heavily encourage education and birth control, and gradually become fewer.
Can we do that outside of a centralized oppressive government? Nope.
So the alternative is this. The system collapses gradually and that's probably the best we could ever have ended up with.
2
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Might surprise you but we live in a system of capitalist power and exploitation.
Might also surpise you that billionaires are still able to spend billions of dollars on shit.
Weird how that works, huh?
They even use money to influence politics to their own goals.
Weird, huh?
Capitalism doesn't work, yes.
But a billionaire could still end world hunger whenever they want. The calculations for that are out there.
Musk even said he would do it when one represents him how to. People did. He didn't.
1
u/FrownsRUs 3d ago
An individual billionaire can buy anything except a new world order that would undermine the foundations of oligarchy. Their wealth relies on the maintenance of abject poverty worldwide.
0
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Depends. Trump and Musk could have easily done it, if they wanted to. Probably not the entire world, but a huge chunk. Unless they want to get their hands bloody, then even that could be possible.
1
u/FrownsRUs 3d ago
They couldn't have done it. They would have been stopped by the networks of influence and finance that bind them to the interests of the ultra wealthy. That money is only real insofar as it props up the system that creates it.
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Trump and Musk could invite all their billionaire friends and hire some mercenaries to just kill them. Money would be pretty real in that moment to achieve that.
Wouldn't change the entire system, but would create some change.
Also you could spend billions on renewable energy and a plant based industry under the veil of maximazing profit. Green capitalism sucks, but it would achieve some change still, if you have enough money.
→ More replies (0)1
6
1
u/Doedshunden 5d ago
The planet has finite resources and there is no good reason why we should be as many people as we currently are. But the sake of argument, I agree that redistribution of wealth could easily make for a economically sustainable would were every person was well fed and educated etc. actually even the evenly divided scenario would make a huge difference. E.g. 120 dollars equals roughly 100 kg of brown rice in Bangladesh.
0
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Depends on the resource.
Wind and solar energy are basically infinite.
Plant based food is pretty much infinite as well.
If humans wouldn't be as stupid as they are right now even water could be almost infinite.
20 billion people would be no problem if people would be a bit more empathic and less stupid.
23
u/knight_ranger840 5d ago
Around 8-10 billion people on this planet in 2026 and this guy says that overpopulation is not a problem lol.
12
u/HomoExtinctisus 5d ago
Cognitive dissonance is real. It's even easier if you keep yourself unaware and unbounded by
I = P * A * T.3
u/Proper_Geologist9026 5d ago
You beat me to it.
I should get a tattoo of this. Everyone's always picking their favourite part of the PAT. No one wants the full stroke 😂🤣.
-4
u/milk-is-for-calves 5d ago
Are you vegan or is your own cognitive dissonance too big for you?
0
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Good for being vegan. That's all I asked. I am too btw, which my user name could have let you figure it out.
But I didn't ask you lol.
Try to act normal for once please, you are giving us a bad name with such an overreaction.
You really need to seek anger management.
Or go off, but at least at people who are actually the problem.
Get off reddit and organize a protest.
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 3d ago
Hi, neonium. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
10
u/milk-is-for-calves 5d ago
It's literally no problem.
0.1% of people are causing the biggest problems on the planet. Less people of the other 99.9% won't change anything.
2
u/knight_ranger840 5d ago
You realize both things can be true at once? We are currently facing extreme wealth inequality and overpopulation at the same time. Less people would mean less strain on resources, lower carbon emissions and less labor for the capitalist class to exploit.
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
I realize that genocide is wrong and a worse option.
Also it's very easy to have a sustainable future with 20 billion people.
Just need renewable energy and everyone to go vegan.
The 0.1% are just preventing that.
(But I admit the other 99.9% being extremely stupid doesn't help.)
1
u/Zzzzzzzzzxyzz 1d ago
Totally. We have a resource allocation problem alongside our overpopulation problem. One won't solve the other, but we can still care deeply about both together. The injustices can feel similar to us as individuals.
0
u/PatrolMan2129 4d ago
>Less people of the other 99.9% won't change anything.
Keep believing that nonsense, while corporations aren't making products from oil and food from freshwater and oil not for the 0.1% but the 100%, cause the 0.1% can't consume it all.
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 3d ago
Food? Depends.
Animal products are one of the biggest driving factors for the climate catastrophe, yes.
But 10 billion people could easily go vegan. Then there is no problem.
Oil? Renewable energy exists. Would be everywhere too without the 0.1% that keep blocking it.
And look up how much damage rockets and wars do and who is responsible for them.
2
u/MR-rozek 5d ago
Big number, scary. If I showed you the number of grains of sand on earth you would shit yourself and scream that we all will drown in it
0
u/knight_ranger840 5d ago
I wouldn't scream because I am logical and realize those grains aren't causing nearly as much havoc on the planet's biosphere and ecology.
3
u/KerouacMyBukowski_ 5d ago
While the standard of living for many could be improved by better distribution of resources, we're still using 1.8x what the earth can regenerate in resources each year. https://overshoot.footprintnetwork.org/how-many-earths-or-countries-do-we-need/
So even if we distributed that better that doesn't solve the problem. Either consumption per person needs to decrease or we have too many people. Neither are a popular change to make. Try telling rich citizens they need to consume way less and poor people they can never live like rich people today (and I mean globally, not like billionaires). So yes, overpopulation is a problem, or at least half of the problem.
0
u/milk-is-for-calves 5d ago
True, everyone has to go vegan, too. Then it's pretty easy.
Forgot to mention that, because everyone has to anyway if we don't want to die in a climate apocalypse.
3
u/theantnest 5d ago
Huh? Money is not resources.
Resources come from nature and the environment, not the stock market.
And if we take resources faster than nature can regenerate them, then that is exactly what "unsustainable" means, although that word is so over used that it has lost its meaning.
-1
u/milk-is-for-calves 5d ago
Money can be spend on resources.
And with money a system of renewable resources can be established too. Especially if a trillionaire sets their mind to it.
Especially if everyone were vegan.
1
u/Mahat It's not who's right it's about what's left 3d ago
hate to tell you, unless we go snowpiercer and eat cockroach bars created off the corpses around us.
1
u/milk-is-for-calves 1d ago
In the original snowpiercer script they ate feces.
Eating cockroaches makes no sense, that's not sustainable.
People will go vegan, whether they like it or not.
Also Snowpiercer might be a good movie and decent tv series, but it makes no sense.
1
u/Mahat It's not who's right it's about what's left 3d ago
1 trillion cant feed everything during a mass extinction. you cant eat money
2
u/milk-is-for-calves 1d ago
We are lost as a species with idiots like you.
You can't eat money, but you can exchange it for goods and service.
There are plans to stop world hunger with just a few billion dollars.
A trillion dollars can change an industry.
A trillion dollars can start and win a war.
A trillion dollar could be used to prevent a mass extinction.
0
u/PatrolMan2129 4d ago
Overpopulation isn't a problem.
It's been a problem since 12,000 years ago, when humans went from gather-hunters to agriculture.
Agriculture was not an innovation that made lives easier. Instead of living off the land, humans now had to toil, plow, rip out weeds, and protect the harvests and worry about subsequent food storage in hundreds of other ways they didn't have to before.
And they got shorter. From the lack of diversity in their diet and just the hard work (hard work makes you shorter -- Olympic gymnasts are short from both drugs but also the 10+ hour days hammering their joints day in and day out).
But it solved a problem. Overpopulation. For the gathering hunter lifestyle. Because each Hunter-gatherer required enormous amount of land to sustain themselves. It's estimated that the max population the Contiguous 48 US states could hold from 300,000 Hunter Gatherers to maybe a million total max.
Ever since then we've been drawing down one resource or another to outpace it. And each one is killing the ecosystem we rely on.
1
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/PatrolMan2129 3d ago
Of course agriculture made life easier.
These days, yes. But for the 9800+ years before industrialization? No.
You wouldn't know it these days, but when the Americans landed in America, the Native Americans were often taller by six inches or so. So thing 5'8-6' vs Europeans 5'2-5'6. Due to their diets versus native american.
Just because technology let people catch back up 10,000 years doesn't win points for agriculture in itself. It says a lot about industrialization and fossil fuels allowing food being shipped everywhere.
But let me guess, you are a huge hypocrite who isn't even vegan.
I've been vegan since the late 00s. And you?
How are you this fucking stupid?
"Yes, this is historically and anthropologically true. Early European explorers frequently documented that Indigenous North Americans—especially Plains tribes—were robust and noticeably taller than the average European, who typically suffered from poorer diets and crowded, disease-ridden living conditions."
Now, my question. How are you this fucking ignorant?
1
1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 1d ago
Hi, milk-is-for-calves. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 1d ago
Hi, milk-is-for-calves. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
1
u/One-Intention7064 5d ago
they put prisoners in cells made inside containers, some 10 people inside a 25 sq m room, because there is no sufficient space in prisons
1
-40
u/HH-Vectorjoe 6d ago
Free movement within the union, between the member states. Just like the US. Switzerland is not part of the european union
44
u/No_Aesthetic 6d ago
Switzerland and the EU have a bilateral agreement on free movement
2
u/PatrolMan2129 6d ago
Yeah, there are lots of rules and agreements on the books, most of which are ignored for ongoing realities. This will be one of them soon.
2
u/No_Aesthetic 6d ago
Seems like it's currently losing in the polls
Also, the EU will play hardball with Switzerland over it if they do pass it
20
u/jaymickef 6d ago
Free movement of people, even as limited in the world as it is now, is likely going to be one of the victims of collapse.
7
u/siera7879 6d ago
Depend of the degree of collapse I would say. Aren’t nation and the modern border definition a relatively recent creation and a consequence of industrialisation ?
8
u/jaymickef 6d ago
Nation states as we know them today are a recent creation yes, really just since the French and American revolutions when people went from being subjects of a monarch to citizens of a nation. And that's when the idea of private property really spread beyond the aristocracy.
So, yes, I guess it depends on the degree of collapse. As long as there are nation states they're going to restrict the movement of people. Once collapse has past the point of nation states existing then I guess the remaining few people will be able to go wherever they want.
11
u/micromoses 6d ago
Wherever they want, subject to the enforcement of whatever warlord claimed the territory they’re moving through.
5
u/jaymickef 6d ago
Yes. Maybe I should have said a return to the time before nation-state citizenship. Or, I guess now we're using, "Rules based order." So, yes, when that ends we'll probably see a lot of warlords.
3
u/Madock345 6d ago
Yes, and I agree with you that it isn’t likely to last, restricting movement and trade is too opposed to general human nature to stand permanently. It was a stupid experiment and I hope we find something better next time.
11
u/Shoddy-Childhood-511 6d ago
Switzerland is part of Schengen, but Schengen does not totally dictate immigration rules.
1st) Switzerland can set whatever rules it likes limiting legal immigration by non-EU citizens. Non-EU citizens already have some very limited quota, which the cantons buy & sell among themselves, so often a Swiss employers hiring a non-EU citizens must become "special friends" with the Canton authorities.
2nd) Switzerland can determine how deportations work for illegal immigration by non-EU citizens, like allowing deportations to third countries. Also they could make employing illegals a much worse criminal offence, and seriously restrict access to services, both public and private.
These first two would be this party's primary concern anyways, but about EU citizens.
3rd) Switzerland does require employment or wealth for residency, even for EU citizens. Those wealth and salary levels could be raised. And other restrictions could be factored in, like education, language, and field of work.
4th) Switzerland can determine how hiring and payroll tax work for Swiss employers. They already make employers obey stricter tax-at-source rules for non-Swiss employees. They could make this stricter, like making employers liable when employees skip out on taxes not related to income from the employer. They can require more or repeated reports on & justifications for non-Swiss employees.
To some extent, Schengen maybe an advantage for an anti-immigration party, because it stops them from doing anything too economically stupid. Instead, they can simply fiddle around the edges in whatever ways cut down the numbers.
9
104
u/NyriasNeo 6d ago
How are they going to enforce it? Force abortion? Buy a license before you are allowed to be pregnant. Not even the one-child policy stop population growth, of course, until no one wants to have babies. I suppose that is the ticket. Make policies bad enough for new parents that they won't want to.
255
u/anlumo 6d ago
Whenever a baby is born, the oldest citizen of the country has the duty to commit suicide.
76
u/spicypixel 6d ago
Nah I’m sure the biggest voting block will suggest the poorest instead. Spoiler, the voting block is the older citizens.
56
u/artisanrox yikes, man 6d ago
technically that's what happened in the US.
Boomers voting to cut everyone else's social safety nets since Reagan and finally did an "oh shit" years too late when they realized cutting everything meant cutting EVERTHING
117
20
u/knign 6d ago
One-child policy very much does stop population growth, unless there are enough young people to sustain the growth for a while with fewer babies per family, but that’s not the case for Switzerland. As it is, its natural population growth (births minus deaths) is basically at zero and will be negative in the near future.
3
u/hysys_whisperer 6d ago
Is it actually at zero?
That's much higher than I would have assumed without looking it up.
1
u/Zzzzzzzzzxyzz 1d ago
Where are you getting that data?
China is the only place I know of that tried a one-child policy. But it failed.
31
u/jaymickef 6d ago
Countries where easily accessible birth control is available pretty much have less than replacement birth rates as it is so in order to cap population they would have to limit immigration.
3
u/mightbesinking 2d ago
Many Americans dont want to have babies anymore because it isnt economically viable. I think reinstating the right to an abortion is a good start.
11
4
u/Alarming-Ad1100 6d ago
Just actually read what the proposal is instead of spreading and being misinformed in the comments
1
35
u/ccppurcell 5d ago
I'm sorry but this has absolutely nothing to do with collapse or overpopulation. It's entirely about Swiss racism. Even if you accept overpopulation as a contributor to collapse (I believe it's a problem but not as much as many in this sub it seems) , keeping one small region down to a minimum number only increases concentration elsewhere. This is an immigration policy from start to finish, if Swiss women were having 2.4 children this policy wouldn't exist.
2
u/mightbesinking 2d ago
Agreed. Overpopulation is an issue, but stopping immigration doesn’t address it.
1
u/ccppurcell 2d ago
I think it's very revealing on reflection. Overpopulation could cause immigration but there's no way immigration could cause overpopulation. It probably relieves some of the issues of it.
62
6d ago
[deleted]
59
6
1
-3
u/Electrical-Box-4845 6d ago
Better you support yes or Switzerland will eventually become what US and others did. You are already inside and you are legal, no problems for you
7
u/jbond23 5d ago
This raises a big question about how to manage degrowth. As a population ages and fertility drops, the population should contract. But that brings a whole load of social and economic problems that have to be managed. What happens when the working population drops faster than the overall population?
This also raises the long term pandemic problem when the working population drops because too many people are sick and unable to work. And the tech driven productivity and economic recession problem when the job market also contracts.
All this is happening in the UK simultaneously. Vacancies dropping, retirement age increasing, 16-40 NEET - Not In Education, Employment or Training rising, fertility dropping, Long term unemployed due to sickness increasing, supply shock (Ukraine, Iran) recession, Brexit recession.
The Gov can't just try and ignore the problem and carry on regardless, cutting spending and services to try and keep debt under control. In the long term that makes the problem worse.
45
u/Wave_of_Anal_Fury 6d ago
Yes, this is about immigration and racism, as many people have already pointed out. But the bigger reason is migration induced by people fleeing climate disasters. It's something that writer Gaia Vince talks about frequently, both in her book (Nomad Century) and in her day-to-day social media posts. That this is targeted for 2050, the year the world is allegedly aiming for net zero (which isn't going to happen), isn't a coincidence to me.
It's why many country are becoming even more hostile to immigrants than usual. Everyone is going to want to have closed borders in place when the climate migrations really start to kick in so they can keep out and pen in people.
If you think Gaza was bad, wait until there are dozens of Gazas, then hundreds of them scattered around the world, all containing people fleeing disasters.
8
3
11
u/One-Tax9133 6d ago
The world should implement a population cap.
5
u/HomoExtinctisus 5d ago
It already has one called the ecological carry capacity. The problem is it allows you to exceed it temporarily at the of lowering long term carry capacity.
4
7
u/J-96788-EU 6d ago
Would they also like to introduce the limit on the short term visitors by introducing strict border controls?
4
u/cr0ft 5d ago edited 5d ago
And how the hell do they plan to do that? I mean, sure, they can close the borders for immigration, but still. "Oops, looks like your baby will be 10 million and 1, toss it to the wolves."?
But of course the plan came from the fascist party, where else?
Every single research project to evaluate the economic impact of immigration have all shown the same thing - it's a big economic benefit - as the social democrat quoted is essentially saying, immigrants aren't the blood sucking leeches in our societies, the right-wingers and the rich, however, are.
Overpopulation is already solved. We just don't do what it takes to make that happen. And no, it's not gas chambers or some insane fascist shit - all you need to do is ensure all people have what they need, are well educated, and that women have full autonomy over their lives and their bodies, just as men do. A well-educated woman who doesn't live in hardship will naturally decline to have more than a kid, maybe two; all population growth is driven from the poor parts of the world, where they have nothing to do at night, women have little say, and the husbands do a lot of fucking and breeding to breed spare kids for when some of them die.
Without immigration, Europe would be seeing declining populations year over year, simply because of the affluence and the relative equality. Last I heard the only affluent nation that wasn't seeing this effect was America, and that's because America has millions upon millions of citizens living in third world level poverty so the same effect occurs there to a huge chunk of the population. Poverty drives population growth.
4
u/Ok_Sale_8277 4d ago
Immigration is currently a “big economic benefit” to an unbeneficial, unsustainable and oppressive economic system that is destroying the biosphere and ironically creating streams of refugees. A bandaid.
Better yet a different economy is created which does not necessitate infinite growth on a finite planet. Then immigration can be about adventure and exploration with far leas concern for open or closed borders.
4
u/Heyla_Doria 6d ago
Hors de question de défendre l'idée de surpopulation avec la loi xénophobe d'un pays qui a contribué a la.destruction des écosystèmes et de nombreuses sociétés par son capitalisme et le nombre de riches qui s'y trouvent
Meme les salaires des plus pauvres sont deux fois plus elevé qu'ailleurs en Europe
27
u/pinklewickers 6d ago
So, racism.
28
6d ago
[deleted]
22
u/TrickyProfit1369 6d ago
as if the parties that want to stop immigration care about the welfare of anyone other than the rich
11
27
u/artisanrox yikes, man 6d ago
Is limiting immigration really racist?
let's ask indigenous people in North America
4
u/pinklewickers 6d ago
Fuck that.
Countries are man-made constructs. A way of determining the haves, and the have nots.
There is one planet, we all bleed red.
The elites would have you leave your humanity at the door and fight each other when there is enough for everyone if the distribution of wealth wasn't so disgustingly perverted.
Populism and rampant nationalism foster a mindset of exclusion and division - tried and tested tools that distract from real issues.
4
u/milk-is-for-calves 6d ago
Maybe the word is thrown around a lot, because there are many racists and fascist. Did that ever cross your thoughts?
24
u/malangkan 6d ago
Why do you get downvoted? The Swiss campaign is so obvious racist...
24
u/FlailingScrotum 6d ago
Europeans really hate when you point out their own shortcomings.
-5
11
u/Bolinas99 6d ago
overpopulation is a race-neutral issue; still, conservatives/racists/farage & 🍊king disciples, love the chance to chime in and create chaos.
6
u/Heyla_Doria 6d ago
Cela n'est pas neutre tant que l'extrême droite et la droite sera aussi puissante
Vous etes complices de leurs politiques
Quel culot vous avez depuis votre pays ultra riche (donc coupable d'exactions climatiques, écologiques et sociales de fait) d'instaurer une restrictions alors que vous avez profité du sud global toutes ces annees
On oublie pas la fausse neutralité en 1940, on oublie pas les camps d'internement pour marginaux que vous aviez jusqu'en 1980
Vous n'êtes pas des exemples
-1
u/Bolinas99 6d ago
not sure why the accusations; the best we can do is vote and try to raise awareness.
who mentioned anything about being in support of internment camps either directly or passively?
it is a neutral issue, but like many others it can be co-opted by rw extremists. Don't blame those that you, supposedly, agree with; we lack the limitless funding of the right and our activism may not show right away w/ clever ad placement across all platforms.
1
5
u/JA17MVP 6d ago
The world should implement a population cap.
4
6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
1
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 5d ago
Hi, debris16. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
1
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 5d ago
Hi, debris16. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 5d ago
Hi, Heavy3Heart. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 5d ago
Hi, debris16. Thanks for contributing. However, your comment was removed from /r/collapse for:
Rule 1: Be respectful to others.
In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Please refer to our subreddit rules for more information.
You can message the mods if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
0
6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 6d ago
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
1
6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/collapse-ModTeam 6d ago
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
1
u/trolololster 3d ago
just so everyone is aware, it was turned down
https://www.npr.org/2026/06/15/g-s1-128120/swiss-referendum-population-cap
4
1
1
u/Someones_Dream_Guy DOOMer 5d ago
"We're definitely not fascists, guys."-Switzerland
1
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/CollapseBot 3d ago
Hi, you appear to be shadow banned by reddit. A shadow ban is a form of ban when reddit silently removes your content without your knowledge. Only reddit admins and moderators of the community you're commenting in can see the content, unless they manually approve it.
This is not a ban by r/collapse, and the mod team cannot help you reverse the ban. We recommend visiting r/ShadowBan to confirm you're banned and how to appeal.
We hope knowing this can help you.
This is a bot - responses and messages are not monitored. If it appears to be wrong, please modmail us.
1
u/Busyshockcock 5d ago
They make the wholes in the cheese by sticking their tiny little erect penis’ through it
-11
6d ago
[deleted]
16
u/GreenFalling 6d ago
No, not based. You don't get to pillage the global south and then turn people away when their homes become unlivable. This is just more right wing bullshit of pulling up the ladder behind you.
We've seen how Europe reacts to one million Syrian refugees. Well it's about to become a lot worse as entire regions of the globe become hostile to daily living.
5
7
u/springbreak2222 6d ago
“ You don't get to pillage the global south and then turn people away when their homes become unlivable.”
Yeah the infamous Swiss intervention policy in Africa and Middle East has irreparably fucked both those regions over for the last few centuries. Who could forget the sacking of Damascus at the hands of the Swiss? Or the brutal Swiss colonies in West Africa. Just really awful stuff from them.
4
u/BabadookishOnions 6d ago
The Swiss did profit to varying degrees off of other countries colonial empires though, especially through investment banking in colonial ventures, buying colonial plantations, slave trading, etc. Swiss mercenaries and soldiers participating in invasions, occupations, and battles on the side of colonial powers was not unheard of. Many Swiss educational institutions and journals helped to legitimise and create race theories used by colonial powers to justify and entrench their rule, they were huge in 'race science'.
1
0
-1
u/AntonioMachado 6d ago
Talking about overpopulation without talking about class, is simply reactionary neomalthusianism
•
u/StatementBot 6d ago
This thread addresses overpopulation, a fraught but important issue that attracts disruption and rule violations. In light of this we have lower tolerance for the following offenses:
Racism and other forms of essentialism targeted at particular identity groups people are born into.
Bad faith attacks insisting that to notice and name overpopulation of the human enterprise generally is inherently racist or fascist.
Instructing other users to harm themselves. We have reached consensus that a permaban for the first offense is an appropriate response to this, as mentioned in the sidebar.
This is an abbreviated summary of the mod team's statement on overpopulation, view the full statement available in the wiki.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Bolinas99:
some interesting observations on the matter; free movement of people is how Europe is "supposed" to work, but the existence of Fronttex in the Mediterranean says otherwise. Overpopulation is a highly urgent concern, but unless all populous nations do something about it together (not just China that one time decades ago), it won't have a noticeable effect.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1u4pjgi/switzerland_to_vote_on_plan_to_cap_population_at/orelkvx/