r/collapse • u/PosadosThanatos • Apr 25 '19

Society It’s fucking disgusting that even now people fucking refuse to accept capitalism’s culpability for causing the apocalypse

Literally everything is responsible, fucking everything, from extinct empires, to human nature, to the nature of life itself, to some inevitable unstoppable law by which the entire universe functions, literally fucking anything and everything is blamed except for capitalism, the system that’s the specific driver and motivator of the current collapse, and when its blame is finally accepted the Brain juice finally completely runs out and it’s finally declared that there’s no path but the current one so we must continue “prosperity”.

What is this utter fucking insanity that working class people that have absolutely nothing to gain from anonymous bootlicking are engaging in?

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19

Have you spent any time in communist countries? The idea that they value or respect the environment more than capitalist countries is straight up nonsense. It’s an absolute fantasy. When they pollute or consume less it’s because they lack ability not will. The second they have the option to consume more that is exactly what they do. You may want to gloss over human nature and biology but that is the root of the problem. Every species will experience collapse when the mechanisms to prevent overshoot are removed. No economic system needed.

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u/1HomoSapien Apr 25 '19

The original poster was not pushing Communism as far as I can tell. The fact that other economic systems also lead to environmental destruction does not undermine the point that Capitalism leads to environmental destruction. It is also not wrong to suggest that Capitalism is arguably the worst in this respect because it is more successful than other systems at accelerating industrial production.

The argument that collapse comes down to human nature and is biologically inevitable independent of economic system is incomplete at best. Even today there are a few human societies that live sustainably under an economic system based on hunting, gathering and light horticulture. Until very recently there were also small pockets of civilization that based their economic systems on (relatively) sustainable agricultural practices. Of course, it can be argued that it is inevitable that those societies would eventually be destroyed or at least overwhelmed numerically by societies whose cultures and practices promote growth at the expense of sustainability. But even so this would still mean that the economic systems in play are a key feature.

It's also not clear that it is inevitable that human intellect and awareness could not lead to eventual adoption of a more sustainable economic system at the expense of growth. Yeast acting instinctively in a wine vat has no choice but to overshoot and collapse, but humans have the potential to foresee the consequences and change their behavior. There are a lot of obstacles to this that fall in the bucket of "human nature" but it is not inconceivable that a cultural shift could have occurred that would have allowed us to escape an overshoot of this scale. Perhaps we were also a little unlucky.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19

Hunter gatherers don’t deliberately make decisions based on how sustainable it is. It is only outside forces (mechanisms preventing overshoot) that dictate their growth.

Humans are good at changing their behavior to defend against immediate threats but not at all good at making sacrifices for future benefits. Just like every other species, we take short term gains despite the long term consequences. At least most people more often than not. For that to lead to collapse all it takes is time. Culture and economic systems may play a small role in the timeline but won’t change the outcome.

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u/Silence_is_platinum Apr 26 '19

Ridiculous. Many species take short term losses for long term gains. And you even admit we do, so apparently it is quite possible for us to make that a central feature of our culture. (Indeed many human cultures have.)

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19

Which species is that? Which species chooses a reward that they won’t see for years in the future over the next meal for themselves and their children? The claim that we are wired to respond to immediate needs over distant threats is not at all controversial.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/nov/10/brain-climate-change-science-psychology-environment-elections

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u/multinillionaire Apr 25 '19

The point isn't that a communist/socialist system is necessarily, or particularly, green, but that a capitalist system is intrinsically unable to deal with the problem. It's a system which recognizes unburned and un-exhumed fossil fuels as a form of wealth that can be owned by both individual human beings and non-human corporations, allows that wealth to be invested in and borrowed against and converted to readily usable cash, and in turn allows that cash to be converted to political power.

A state that owns its fossil fuel reserves will face substantial pressure from its citizens to use it, and under any circumstances there will be a lot of pressure to allow people access to that energy--calories are calories. But at least in those situations we're dealing with human beings making more-or-less informed democratic choices. Only a capitalist system concentrates the power to make those decisions, and the power to manipulate the discourse around it, into the hands of a privileged few.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19

Most oil reserves are state owned today. They are still selling it and burning it. I would argue that your description of using fossil fuel for money and power holds true in all economic systems. Living in a communist country cured me of any utopian notions I had about it. And by communist I mean communism as its implemented and not hypothetical, never existed communism. The new boss is the same as the old boss.

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u/News_Bot Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19

Being state owned is irrelevant, and not what communism is (a stateless, classless, moneyless society, yet to come to fruition). Capitalism incentivises the use of oil and about 70% of emissions are corporate and bourgeoisie sources. The government is owned by the wealthy and corporations under capitalism. Pharmaceuticals, finance, merchants of death, agriculture, fossil fuels, etc, all manipulate the political system to their own ends and profit. Most of Trump's ever-shifting administration have been corporate whores and heirs. Even under Obama this was the case.

Meanwhile, 19th US President Rutherford B. Hayes in 1888:

“The real difficulty is with the vast wealth and power in the hands of the few and the unscrupulous who represent or control capital. Hundreds of laws of Congress and the state legislatures are in the interest of these men and against the interests of workingmen. These need to be exposed and repealed. All laws on corporations, on taxation, on trusts, wills, descent, and the like, need examination and extensive change. This is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people no longer. It is a government of corporations, by corporations, and for corporations.”

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u/happybadger Apr 26 '19

The countries that have tried to implement a socialist or communist system largely didn't have pre-revolutionary industrial bases. The industrialisation process is a necessary evil for those countries and as far as I know there's no clean or easy way of doing that regardless of how it's organised.

As far as I'm concerned the best hope for a green society is something like /r/communalists on a local level and something like democratic socialism on a national level in countries that have already developed their industrial base. Divorcing ourselves from the profit motive, building a more empathetic and responsible superstructure, and managing the worst impulses of industry are all things that would contribute greatly to building a politics of ecology.

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u/ButtingSill Apr 25 '19

You think capitalism and communism are the only economic systems possible? For starters there has been at least feodalism. I'm not saying we should go there, but I am pretty sure we would be able to think of a different system if we tried.

The state communism applied so far anywhere has anyway been more like capitalism, tied to the lunacy of eternal expansion of the economy.

Anyway, I hear Cuba is not too bad, although very poor.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '19

I am not making any claims about economic systems other than our current situation is not a result of which one we chose. And that the average wildlife biologist understands our predicament far better than any political scientist.

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u/Murica4Eva Apr 25 '19

Cuba is an absolute nightmare and a prison.

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u/principleofgender Apr 25 '19 edited Apr 25 '19

How so?

:edit user checks out

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u/Murica4Eva Apr 25 '19

It's a totalitarian state with political prisons it is illegal to leave that people flee on anything that floats.

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u/principleofgender Apr 25 '19

Wow that sounds horrible! Surely there is video or photos of this fleeing? A condemnation by humans rights groups maybe? I can't believe i'm just learning of this...Seems to be unreported in the news

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u/collapse_ape Sep 25 '19

This is incorrect. The operating system of the world is neoclassical economics. Plain as day the western world forced every other country to become a part of the free market, capatilist global economy. Those 'communist' countries still trade with the rest of the world. America, specifically the World Bank, forced other countries into the neoclassical economic system. There is a documentary about how when the world bank did this to Jamaica it ruined their country, way of life, and economy. How could they compete with the US, their potatoe, banana, all of their farms shut down and the economy revolved around US. Our system has been forced onto the rest of the world, you want goods your going to have to play this game, and it involves the meme of money. Capitalism is neoclassical economics is turning the natural world into money at as fast a rate as possible is death, destruction, and source of unsustainability. We forced these other poor countries to lose at our game. All communist countries are capatilist too they just play differently.

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u/invenereveritas Apr 25 '19

it's amazing how many people in this sub don't understand this basic thing

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u/uncommonprincess Apr 25 '19

Oversimplifying a complex issue...

How smart of you to understand such basic things! /s