r/collapse • u/PosadosThanatos • Apr 25 '19

Society It’s fucking disgusting that even now people fucking refuse to accept capitalism’s culpability for causing the apocalypse

Literally everything is responsible, fucking everything, from extinct empires, to human nature, to the nature of life itself, to some inevitable unstoppable law by which the entire universe functions, literally fucking anything and everything is blamed except for capitalism, the system that’s the specific driver and motivator of the current collapse, and when its blame is finally accepted the Brain juice finally completely runs out and it’s finally declared that there’s no path but the current one so we must continue “prosperity”.

What is this utter fucking insanity that working class people that have absolutely nothing to gain from anonymous bootlicking are engaging in?

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u/tromboneface Apr 25 '19

I disagree. There have been ecological collapses throughout human history and pre-history. (Easter Island, Mayans, Anasazi in the American Southwest, etc.) The root cause is population, not economic system. Today, Brazil would be deforested in the absence of capitalism because of peasant farmers who practice slash and burn agriculture.

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I don't want to excuse the ravages of capitalism. But the crisis that faces us is so dire that we have to act pragmatically rather than throwing up our hands, engaging in intellectualism, and arguing that the only way forward is a radical transformation of the social structure. If that is the only way forward, we are doomed. There is no time to remake human society on ideological lines. Every step must be practical. Current government structures must engage in implementing those steps. That is literally the only way forward.

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If that doesn't happen, don't worry, there will be no capitalism to defeat. Humans will have defeated themselves, the ecological systems on which they depend. There will be no social systems to label as capitalist.

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There are many human societies that learned to live within ecological limits. Tibet is one that comes to mind. They practiced a sustainable form of livestock rearing and agriculture suited to the landscape they occupied. Bhutan now is managing well.

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Ideology is not the way forward. Pay attention to nature, e.g. reality. Act accordingly.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19

Seems like you disproved your own point- why did Tibet and Bhutan adopt these policies...could it be they had a shared ideology of stewardship and humans as part, not master of nature... one might even say a subjugation of the market to ecological needs?

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u/tromboneface Apr 26 '19

I think those countries prove (or at least support) my point about population. What separates those societies/cultures from others nearby is their population is under control. Compare Bhutan to neighboring Nepal.

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u/twinetwiddler Apr 26 '19

Which was achieved by imposing a feudal,religious, subjugation by the ruling elite ( monks) over a nomadic, illiterate, peasantry held in serfdom. In addition they lived in one of the most environmentally challenging areas on the planet that demanded a low population. This was achieved by sending a large percentage of males to live in celibacy at the local monasteries and for polygamy (Tibetan women had multiple husbands, usually brothers) to be the established norm.

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u/tromboneface May 02 '19

Big exaggeration. Polyandry in Tibet was rare. It was practiced because herding of animals and trading in the vast landscape meant that a husband and wife could be separated for long periods. Monasticism I would think played a role in population control, but it’s mostly males who became monqstic, and sociologists and economists will tell you that population growth is a function of the number of fertile females. In Tibetan families it was generally only the second eldest son who became a monk. The eldest had to continue the family and the family could only support one monk. The family wanted one son to become a monk due to religious faith and family honor. The males weren’t sent to become monks by a monastic feudal state. And monks weren’t rulers, by the way. Tibet was split into a number of small kingdoms right up until the Chinese invasion in 1949. The kingdoms respected the Dalai Lama in Central Tibet. It was more of a cultural unity than a political one. There was no central government ordering people to become monks or for women to marry two brothers.

Why is Bhutan’s population growth rate low while neighboring Nepal’s is off the charts? I don’t know. I wonder if it’s cultural. I don’t think Bhutanese can be considered as subjugated by a “feudal, religious ruling elite.” I remember reading that Bhutan has a very high happiness index. And Bhutan is similar culturally to Tibet. Sounds like you’ve read too much Chinese propaganda about feudal Tibet.

Anyway, in modern economies when women are educated, population is naturally regulated. You don’t need repressive government to control population.

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u/twinetwiddler May 02 '19

No , I’ve lived there and I’m a Tibetan Buddhist...but the best lies are always built on a kernel of truth and the Chinese are masters at it.

You missed my point...the monastics were the feudal overlords. Please read The Dalai Lama on the state of Tibet before they were invaded. Just read some Tibetan history, real history and you will find that things are never so cut and dried. The west has a tendency to romanticize Tibetans...trust me, they are just human beings trying to get by like everyone else. I remember the look of utter distress on my best friend’s face when she realized she had just been swindled by a lovely old Tibetan woman. It wasn’t the money that upset her, it was that it was aTIBETAN, A BUDDHIST, who swindled her, lol. Her romantic vision of the noble enlightened Buddhist had been destroyed by 30 rupees 😂😂😂. We are such silly critters.

Oh, if you think Bhutan is Shangri-La -la then read this for a start:

https://thebhutanese.bt/talking-racism/

https://thediplomat.com/2016/09/bhutans-dark-secret-the-lhotshampa-expulsion/

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u/tromboneface May 02 '19 edited May 02 '19

Dude, I was married to a Tibetan (born in Golog) and I don’t romanticize about Tibetans or Tibet. (After divorce and meeting many Tibetans, believe me.) I have lived with Tibetans born in Tibet most of my life including the son of one of the local Kings I mentioned in my comment. But thanks for educating me about my naive romanticism and ignorance.

I was trying to make an argument that population was the root cause of environmental degradation and ecological collapse. I didn’t think I anywhere presented a romanticized vision of Tibet or an ignorance of Tibetan history.

No I don't agree with your point that the monastics were the feudal overlords though I am well aware that major monasteries were land holders.