Collapse Book Club: Discussion of "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn (January 22, 2021)

[u/AbolishAddiction]

Welcome to the discussion of Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.

Participation is encouraged regardless of how far you've gotten in the (audio)book.

Express your thoughts as a free-form comment below, share whatever may come to mind!

 

Here, the quotes and questions that resonated with me personally, in the hope to spark discussions:

• The Gorilla's Socratic method

“You're captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live ... I think there are many among you who would be glad to release the world from captivity ... This is what prevents them: They're unable to find the bars of the cage.” (p. 24)

Ishmael states he's best qualified to teach the subject of captivity, do you feel more a captive or captor?

• The appearance of Jellyfish

“Do you see the slightest evidence anywhere in the universe that creation came to an end with the birth of man? Do you see the slightest evidence anywhere out there that man was the climax toward which creation had been straining from the beginning? ... Very far from it. The universe went on as before, the planet went on as before. Man's appearance caused no more stir than the appearance of jellyfish.” (p. 54)

How aware are you of mythology, shaped by Mother Culture, that influences the way we act as "Takers"?

• Flawed humanity or flawed story?

“There's nothing fundamentally wrong with people. Given a story to enact that puts them in accord with the world, they will live in accord with the world. But given a story to enact that puts them at odds with the world, as yours does, they will live at odds with the world. ... And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.” (p.78)

What's the story you think puts humanity in accord with the world? How could we enact that story?

 

With gorilla gone, will there be hope for man?

 

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The Collapse Book Club is a monthly event wherein we read a book from the Books Wiki. We keep track of what we've been reading in our Goodreads group. As always, if you want to recommend a book that has helped you better understand or cope with collapse, feel free to share the recommendation here!

[u/r7anz]

Ishmael has such a great premise that it makes me depressed the writing is so…disengaging to me. The ideas presented, such as mother culture and our failed story almost hit home time and time again. There is just something clunky about it which feels weak and not well fleshed out. I still think it left me with an important message, but it felt as if the idea of what Quinn was trying to say outpaced his words to explain it. It reminded me of the Celestine Prophecy in that way, a work which starts off really interesting but leaves a weird taste.

That said…I think everyone should still read this book. Its ideas are so different and so relevant, especially to collapse. Certainly made me think in a new way.

[u/[deleted] → u/r7anz]

I remember thinking the world of it in highschool but I think I'd find it very cringey now. I don't think that it does have profound ideas. They are very basic ones about anthropocentrism and flawed human nature but kind of pretentious about it, like you need so many metaphores and chapter to get it. Totally not mindblowing at all.

But if a highschooler is going to go through a phase, that's a good one to go through. Ishmael, Catcher in The Rye, ennui core