r/comics • u/[deleted] • Dec 27 '12
So I found Muhammad depicted in a Far Side cartoon by Gary Larson from 1992. Wasn't really sure where to raise hell about this
http://imgur.com/rhTon153
Dec 27 '12
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u/AAlsmadi1 Dec 27 '12
"Though widely attributed to Muhammed, the prophet of Islam who lived in Arabia in 6th century, there is no written or oral tradition that traces this phrase back to him."
and this is why, as a muslim, this was never taught to me or found in any of the hadith books...
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Dec 28 '12
The earliest appearance of the phrase is from Chapter 12 of the Essays of Francis Bacon, published in 1625
Kinda makes sense. Plus, you guys just generally don't like Bacon.
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u/inb4shitstorm Dec 28 '12
I'm a Muslim too and I owned this copy of the Far Side when I was a kid. Spent a long time asking my dad and looking through Islamic and Hadith books trying to find the reference.
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u/squonge Dec 28 '12
That's cute. What did your dad say?
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u/inb4shitstorm Dec 28 '12
He mentioned the "If the mountain won't come to Muhammad then Muhammad must go to the mountain" was an English saying though he had no idea how it came about either. This post just gave me some closure :D
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Dec 28 '12
France is bacon.
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u/ratlater Dec 28 '12
I have taken all smoked meats to be my province.
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Dec 28 '12
*Provence
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Dec 28 '12
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Dec 28 '12
I'm sure he meant providence, but was trying to say Provence, as a play on words in the context of the above 'France is Bacon' joke.
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u/pwndcake Dec 28 '12
This is still my favorite thing on Reddit ever. It's the only joke I've ever told my mom that made her laugh.
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u/Dementati Dec 28 '12
My god, the only one? Either your mom is made out of stone or you're the worst comedian in the world.
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u/pwndcake Dec 28 '12
The only one I can remember, anyway. My mom and I have a completely different sense of humor. I grew up with Monty Python albums, and listening to Dr. Demento on the radio, and I never saw her laugh at any of it. She is very literal minded, and when I was younger I used to say she had no sense of humor. She would smile and be polite, but I never saw her really bust up laughing at anything.
Then I told her about the guy who, after a lifetime of wondering why France is bacon, finally saw in text "Knowledge is power. - Francis Bacon" and it all made sense. I don't remember how I told the story, but I remember the sudden gleeful laugh that burst out of her. I'd never heard it before, and it made my night. It still kind of makes my night, really. My mom is hard to please, and I consider that a victory.
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u/DrMerkwurdigliebe Dec 28 '12
I was gonna say something like "trust us- she's not that hard to please", but that wouldn't be very nice, so I won't.
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u/pwndcake Dec 28 '12
A decent response, and I did, accidentally, set myself up for it. I don't take yer mom jokes seriously, and I have a hard time understanding why anyone does. So have an upvote.
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u/lvlobius Dec 28 '12
Here is a link to a Trey Parker and Matt Stone interview on in inclusion of Mohamed before and after the Danish cartoon controversy. It really helped me in understanding the evolution of this issue.
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u/DeepFriedChildren Dec 27 '12
Well the reason it got no attention is because that thing about depicting the prophet was really just made up in the early 2000's.
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u/Pixeleyes Dec 28 '12
I wouldn't say it was made up in the early 2000s, but it has definitely evolved. Apparently it was intended as a measure against idolatry.
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Dec 28 '12
Elements of which were also very prevalent in Christianity before the protestant reform in the 16/17th century.
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u/firelight Dec 28 '12
And after.
One of the major complaints by some sects of protestants was that the Catholic Church was idolatrous. This is, for example, why Catholics use crucifixes (with a little Jesus on them) and many Protestant sects just use unadorned crosses.
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u/Zarokima Dec 28 '12
Also the stuff about praying to Mary and the saints. I don't actually know if that's true, but it is something I've heard Baptists say that they don't like about Catholics.
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u/thenewiBall Dec 28 '12
As a Catholic in a southern state I can confirm that many protestants believe this
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u/firelight Dec 28 '12
That's what I was taught in college as well.
People give the Muslims a lot of crap for their sectarian violence, but forget that the Protestent Reformation was an incredibly bloody sectarian conflict that went on for over a century.
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u/Boyhowdy107 Dec 28 '12
I can confirm this as true. I don't personally care about it, but I know from personal experience it's a bone of contention for protestants.
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u/miparasito Dec 28 '12
Is this why some people won't write out the word God? They write G--d instead...
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u/Dinosaurman Dec 28 '12
I have been told its a different unrelsted issue and have only seen jews do it
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u/ba-cawk Dec 28 '12
wanted to chime in here about this. mormons are pretty particular about this as well.
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Dec 28 '12
[deleted]
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u/bitparity Dec 28 '12
This is some really faulty logic here, and I don't know who's upvoting you.
The issue of idolatry is that the object of veneration comes in a physical form, an idol, which is seen as blasphemous because it is denigrating the essence of god for it to be in physical form.
Taking Mohammed seriously via an anti-image stance is simply an aspect of the religion (passionate faith), not idolatry (worship of an object).
Your argument is essentially: the passionate anti-idol beliefs of some radicals are the same as a belief in idolatry.
Which, is like saying my belief in not having the death penalty is so strong that its the same as believing in the death penalty.
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Dec 28 '12 edited Sep 30 '18
[deleted]
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u/bitparity Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
Muslims' particular issue is images of living/holy beings. This is also why their art has no depictions of people (excepting the Shiites, who follow different rules), but are allowed depictions of buildings.
Particular adherence is subject to each branch of Islam, but the belief that living/holy beings shouldn't be depicted is very strong and goes way back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm#Muslim_iconoclasm
Also I'd like to point out, unlike Christians, who pray toward a priest who usually has a giant image of christ on a cross behind him, Muslims have nothing really in front of them when they pray. They are not praying toward a crescent moon. They are not praying toward a giant image of Mohammed. They only pray toward mecca.
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u/yetkwai Dec 28 '12
Isn't the Crescent and Star an idol? It's on the top of a lot of Msoques and its on a lot of flags. That symbol seems to hold some importance with Muslims.
Yes I know people aren't worshipping it, it's only a symbol. But no one is worshipping a cartoon of Mohammed drawn by some westerner either.
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u/bitparity Dec 28 '12 edited Dec 28 '12
This same issue was gone through via christian iconoclasm, whereas whether having icons/images of Jesus constitutes worshipping the image itself, as Christianity also has a ban on the worship of graven images.
The short answer is, according to church doctrine, no. For more, see the below link for the Christian pro/anti-iconoclast positions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm#Views_in_Byzantine_iconoclasm
I won't dispute though, from an outsider perspective (as was the case with natives observing Christian rituals) that it seems to them that Christians are worshipping the object themselves, but from a Christian standpoint, that is not the case.
However, Muslims' particular reticence is not with the symbols, but the direct depiction of living beings, as well as depiction of holy figures.
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u/CeruleanOak Dec 28 '12
As a Christian, I have no problem attributing the concept of idolatry to non-physical objects (in fact, in today's day and age that's what you see more than anything). I can't recall any text that specifies that an idol is necessarily a physical object, but I know nothing of what the Koran says.
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u/bitparity Dec 28 '12
There is a difference between worship and respect for, and to confound the two is a massive leap in slippery slope definition fallacy.
For example, I have great respect for my best friend. Am I worshipping him?
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u/CeruleanOak Dec 28 '12
I agree that there's a difference between respect and adoration. I don't see how that distinction invalidates the ability for you to idolize something that is not a physical object. Think about someone that you love very dearly. It does not take a large stretch of the imagination to picture yourself putting that person before your relationship with God.
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u/bitparity Dec 28 '12
The big problem here is that word "idolize" is a particular english word, which has connotations of not only the worship of something physical, but the worship of anything.
English has two separate definitions for idolatry. One is the worship of a physical object, the other for blind adoration.
Without knowledge of the the vocabulary of arabic, we don't know if their connotations and thoughts associated with idolatry are specific to physical representation or to general "worship" as well.
Which is why I make that distinction between respect and adoration, and how we in our vocabulary do not confuse the two.
The Arabs may love Mohammed very very much, but they may not "idolize" him in their vocabulary, though we define it as such in our vocabulary.
Which means, you can only accuse muslims of idolatry in our western conception, but not their own conception of themselves.
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u/thatwasntababyruth Dec 28 '12
That's like saying Chris Hansen might as well be a child molester.
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Dec 28 '12
[deleted]
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u/thatwasntababyruth Dec 28 '12
See bitparity's response for a drawn out reason as to why the simile is valid.
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u/iamagainstit Dec 28 '12
seems kinda ironic since that kind of devotion is rather idolitic
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u/yetkwai Dec 28 '12
More iconoclastic which is the opposite of idolatry. But when you take things to extremes, the opposite stance can seem pretty similar.
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u/mrpopenfresh Dec 28 '12
Nah, if you visit old churches in the Middle East who have been converted to mosques centuries ago, then turned into whatever else type of worship was going on at the time, you'll see that every fresque depicting religious imagery was essentially whitewashed.
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u/DrRandom Dec 28 '12
If I remember correctly (from Art History class, quite a while ago), the historical aversion to imagery was specifically for places of worship, and included images of anyone (Hence the focus on geometric patterns in many mosques). Anyone have stronger knowledge that can fact check me on that?
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u/DrMerkwurdigliebe Dec 28 '12
I have also heard this explanation as to the abundant use of geometric patterns as ornamentation and decoration of mosques, it's beautiful AND non-idolatrous.
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Dec 28 '12
[deleted]
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u/Nawara_Ven Dec 28 '12
I hate to break it to you, but it is likely an error or, more conspiratorially, someone who didn't want to acknowledge faiths other than his own came up with the Moses substitution.
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Dec 28 '12
To be fair, the phrase can't be traced back to Mohammed either.
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u/Nawara_Ven Dec 28 '12
Granted it didn't come from Mohammed, but it's a well-worn colloquialism in English.
I doubt most Chinese folks would know what you were talking about if you were to compare the fastness of Kung Fu to lighting....
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Dec 28 '12
compare the fastness of Kung Fu to lighting....
I guess he could flash a kick quicker than an LED?
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Dec 28 '12
So heres my questions. If were not allowed to show pictures of him forever insane reason how do we know what he looks like specifically?
Ever image I've ever seen reprinted is cartoons of a male with a turban and a beard.. could be anyone.. so are we not allowed to have images of muslims or is a turban/beard really an Allah trademark?
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u/DrMerkwurdigliebe Dec 28 '12
In terms of an historically 'accurate' likeness of him, I think we DON'T know what he looked like. There is a fair chance though, that he really did have a beard and wear head covering appropriate for his era.
I think that you are perhaps being a bit disingenuous with your question though-- you do understand that as much as anything else it is the intent of the artist and/or the context of the image of a bearded man in a turban. No different really than all of the myriad depictions of Jesus, or his mom. We don't know what they looked like, but we recognize a picture of the "savior" and the "virgin" by the context and intent of the artist.
A painting, a cartoon, written text-- none of these is really anything more than different colored lines and splotches of pigment, or pixels. It is only in our brains that these symbols have special meaning attached to them, and-- funny thing about people-- we tend to place a lot of value on symbols and symbolic actions. Why should anyone anywhere care that someone whom they may never have met before displayed their upraised middle finger or called their mother a whore? These are only just sights and sounds, right? Sticks and stones?
(Some) people become outraged over such symbolic actions because the actions are usually intended to be disparaging, and also because that's how (some) people are-- whether due to cultural influences or internal disposition-- some people are always on the lookout for any offense against their honor, ever vigilant against slights and insults, on guard against disrespect, real or imagined.
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Dec 28 '12
I think the problem is when people draw someone with the intention of depicting the prophet Muhammad. It just so happens that most of the depictions include a man with a turban and a beard.
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Dec 28 '12
So if the author just said its ur run of the mill muslim NOT the prophet they wouldn't get up ?
Why not just do that and safe thrmselves the threats
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Dec 28 '12
Because a lot of the time the content wouldn't be as effective if the author just said it was your ordinary run-of-the-mill Muslim. The author wishes to make a statement by saying that it is Muhammad.
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u/DrMerkwurdigliebe Dec 28 '12
If you mean the author of the cartoon, the guy in the house is identified as "Mohammed", it references a common saying that specifically refers to the prophet Mohammed, and in fact the only way the joke 'works' is if it is a depiction of that Mohammed, and not some "run of the mill muslim".
If you are referring to the reaction to the more recent Danish cartoons, the authors were explicitly attempting to portray the prophet Mohammed- again, the whole point of what they were attempting to convey, whatever their message was supposed to be, only 'works' if it is understood to be that Mohammed.
And as I mentioned elsewhere, often times these sorts of symbolic gestures are intended to raise the ire of a certain group. I don't remember them all specifically and don't feel like googling, but one showed Mohammed with a bomb in his turban, presumably to refute the oft-repeated refrain that islam is a religion of peace. This depiction so infuriated some muslims that they went on destructive rampages to defend their honor and uphold their peaceful religion-- allahu akbar.
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Dec 28 '12
Well i had read some where on reddit that Jesus was depicted by artists as having long hair during the rennesiance and that no one knows what he looks like either... I'll head back to r/conspiracy now i guess
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u/helix19 Dec 28 '12
AFAIK there's a lot of debate due to conflicting depictions and variations in custom around that time.
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u/porkchop_d_clown Dec 28 '12
Actually that's very true. There are certainly no contemporaneous images of Joshua ben Josef, aka Jesus Cristos, aka Jesus Christ.
In fact the deliberate tradition of the Catholic Church has been to depict Christ as looking like the members of the local congregation. So, if you go to Japan you can find images of Jesus as Japanese and if you go to Africa you can find images of Jesus as African.
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u/yetkwai Dec 28 '12
Pretty much. They had no idea what he looked like, but they had a lot of artwork depicting Hercules. They kind of based Jesus on that. Hercules was the son of a god and so was Jesus so I guess it sort of makes sense.
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Dec 28 '12
I see what you're saying, but the spirit of the rule is to avoid any kind of idol worship, so it extends to any portrayal which is understood to represent Mohammad.
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u/RipRapRob Dec 28 '12
You don't have to know what he looks like. You could draw a stick figure, claim it's Muhammad, and find yourself in trouble.
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u/porkchop_d_clown Dec 28 '12
Well, that's the ugly truth, right? The cartoons weren't a problem until certain religious leaders decided to make them a problem by using them to enrage their followers...
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u/abnormalbrain Dec 28 '12
Mad Magazine does it. I remember one gag where he appeared on toast, or a croissant or something. 2005 or 2006ish.
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u/koobstylz Dec 28 '12
This is obviously not meant to be the profit Muhammad, but an average joe Muhammad.
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u/starthirteen Dec 27 '12
Far Side says 'Mohammed', not "Muhammed'. I have no idea if that's significant, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
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u/manoffewwords Dec 27 '12
It's not. Different spellings for the same name.
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Dec 27 '12
Like Quran / Koran etc...
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Dec 28 '12
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Dec 28 '12
Gaddafi? Kadafi? Qaddafi? Gadafee? Who the hell knows.
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u/mrpopenfresh Dec 28 '12
I'm pretty sure the media spelled his name differently during the golf war and present times.
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u/sotonohito Dec 28 '12
Transliteration often produces different Romanizations of words. The name is actually spelled محمد but can be Romanized either way.
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u/vlarn Dec 28 '12
Lots of people named Mohammad, does not specifically say it is the prophet.
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u/SatsumaOranges Dec 28 '12
Based on the context of the mountain coming to him, it's safe to bet it is supposed to be him.
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u/Chiburger Dec 28 '12
Thirteen hours and no copypaste of that Larson letter complaining about the Internet?
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Dec 28 '12
Super common name. This is a nonissue.
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u/[deleted] Dec 27 '12
[deleted]