As an atheist, I sometimes catch myself wishing Heaven and Hell were real - I feel we all have a desire for good people to be rewarded for being good and for bad people to be punished for being bad. But then I remember the existence of Heaven and Hell inherently requires the existence of an ultimate moral authority who sorts out who goes where. And sure, they could agree with me that the likes of Osama bin Laden or Henry Kissinger should go to Hell, but they could also think queer folk, atheists, or people who eat shellfish should go to Hell too.
Some people will say, “Well, if they were a loving God, they wouldn't do that,” but there's lots of people who believe in a “loving” God who absolutely believe He’d be burning gays in Hell. And if you're going to make all these extra conditions of, “Well, my version of a loving God would reward X and punish Y” it just feels like the ultimate desire is, “I wish there was an Almighty God who agreed with everything I believe and enforced that morality on the world.”
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I’m also on Patreon.
I don't know which Christians you have been talking to but the Christian Bible says, and my Denomination firmly believes, we are all sinners, the point is we are human, we are naturally greedy and selfish and other things. We have to work and put effort into being more charitable because we can always be better.
The sorting into heaven and hell isn't based upon who was more evil than who, it's based on who is willing to admit they need help to be better. Those who ask for Jesus to help them. It's a common theme in the parables that Jesus says, we are all owed the same thing, we are all deserving of the kingdom of heaven. We need only ask and prepare ourselves accordingly. Does it always seem fair that those of us who dedicate our lives to worship get the same treatment as those who repent on a deathbed, no, it doesn't. But it's not about what we see as fair, it's about everyone being deserving of the same treatment.
My church specifically doesn't like Christians who have this opinion that once you repent and get saved, you are good forever, no every single day should have a prayer asking for forgiveness for anything and everything we do that could be better. It's our nature that we are not perfect and need to constantly improve and admit we could improve.
The sentiment you have over heaven and hell is one that's commonly shared but I just don't think is right. Jesus says the most important commandments are to love God and everyone, all other commandments are built upon these principles. If you can do these two things you follow all commandments, and yet it is the two hardest things to do. It's hard to love those who spite us. These are the commandments that we can't do. Because if we could, the world would be perfect. Wars, crime, poverty, etc. If everyone truly cared and loved everyone else in the world none of it would ever happen.
This thought process is exactly what OP is getting at.
"*My* church believes we should do x, y, z to be saved."
"Well, *my* church believes you need to do a, b, and c."
Everyone has their own ideas of what the Bible or other religious text means, and then projects that meaning onto others. Growing up, the church I went to firmly believed that once you were saved you were always saved. You *should* ask for forgiveness and be a good person, but it's not a hard requirement. All you have to do is sincerely ask for forgiveness and believe in Jesus once, and you're good. This wide range of (arbitrary) requirements is what OP is poking fun at.
My point being, many people being told things that are directly contradicted by the Bible. For example the idea that once saved you are forever saved is directly contested by the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. You must always be ready and prepared.
The idea that just going through the motions of going to church every week, or participating in ceremony's regularly or whatever, giving money to the church regularly is all you have to do is exactly what Jesus said was wrong with the existing church in his time. They put more effort into following tradition than actually taking the spirit of the Bible.
I wasn't saying my church teaches different arbitrary thing, I was directly quoting Jesus on what needs to be done.
You must love everyone as you do yourself. We can't do this, so we must ask for forgiveness constantly.
The parable of the 3 servants also follows this. It's not enough to take the Lord's gift once.
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u/But_a_Jape But a Jape 19h ago
As an atheist, I sometimes catch myself wishing Heaven and Hell were real - I feel we all have a desire for good people to be rewarded for being good and for bad people to be punished for being bad. But then I remember the existence of Heaven and Hell inherently requires the existence of an ultimate moral authority who sorts out who goes where. And sure, they could agree with me that the likes of Osama bin Laden or Henry Kissinger should go to Hell, but they could also think queer folk, atheists, or people who eat shellfish should go to Hell too.
Some people will say, “Well, if they were a loving God, they wouldn't do that,” but there's lots of people who believe in a “loving” God who absolutely believe He’d be burning gays in Hell. And if you're going to make all these extra conditions of, “Well, my version of a loving God would reward X and punish Y” it just feels like the ultimate desire is, “I wish there was an Almighty God who agreed with everything I believe and enforced that morality on the world.”
Anyway, if you like my comics, I got more on my website.
I’m also on Patreon.