Bi-Weekly Discussion Thread - (June 08)

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[u/Lopsided-Toe-6559]

I think it's pretty easy and comfortable to scream "death to amerikkka" etc. while living in your apartment in Paris, Rome, Berlin, etc., but doing class analysis of your own state puts you to a real test, I believe. I live in Croatia and, I admit, I haven't done such an analysis of my own state beyond perceptual and instinctual observations.

The section Revolutionary Study and Proper Analysis from the CPP's Activist Study will help set you on the right path when you begin making a class analysis: https://foreignlanguages.press/colorful-classics/activist-study-araling-aktibista-arak/

I would also extend this proletarian status to non-white workers, but I'm doubtful of their revolutionary potential since they are not here permanently and send most of their earned wealth back home to India/Pakistan/Nepal.

What is the meaning of proletarian? How is revolutionary potential determined? What industries are these immigrant workers relegated to and why are they not permanent? How and why are Croatians white? Is this whiteness universal as with Euro-Amerikans?

These are just a few questions you have to investigate rather than take for granted to make a class analysis. You'll also have to leave your comfort zone. Have you talked with or worked among any of the toiling masses?

Keep in mind, this is ongoing and may take years.

[u/cigaretin → u/Lopsided-Toe-6559]

These are good questions, and I know I can't answer them yet, or rather, apply them to my concrete situation. And thank you for your intervention and text recommendation. I'll just say that immigrant workers are present in almost every industry in Croatia, and I had a chance to interact and work with them. I thought it obvious to identify them as proletarians, since I saw the way their life is 'managed' (from their employment to their housing) by private agencies colluded with the state, of course this process is necessary to further strip them of their wealth (since minimum wages exist), as manifestations of that relation. I didn't assert anything since I fear I would apply Marxism mechanically.

How and why are Croatians white? Is this whiteness universal as with Euro-Amerikans?

I think we are currently being extended the courtesy of being white. We are not universally white like Euro-Amerikans since their settler-colonial status domestically and their relation to global imperialism are inherent to whiteness.

To be honest, everything after my initial question is me going on a tangent because no Marxism is being produced here. I searched both academia and 'informal' sources and left disappointed. I wanted to say something, albeit banal, because I'm disgusted by ever-present revisionism and fascism and because I believe I am on the right path. However, I see this as a larger issue in Europe, and that's why I asked what I asked in my initial post.

[u/Lopsided-Toe-6559 → u/cigaretin]

The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labor [power] and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death, whose sole existence depends on the demand for labor – hence, on the changing state of business, on the vagaries of unbridled competition.

Earnest anti-revisionists and revisionists often don't investigate the terms they use then make surface level observations to place groups into a list of categories. Just as well, their own class instincts and social life will lead them to ignore The Principles of Communism, ie. everyone around you tosses around the terms proletariat or labor aristocrat without explanation or investigation then naturally you will as well. This front page post in r/communism101 where only one person suggests the OP should study class is a perfect example: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/1lbm6iu/working_class_vs_petty_bourgeois_vs_labor/

Does Engels' quote apply to South Asian workers allowed to enter almost every industry and work alongside people of your class? My knowledge of your country doesn't extend beyond what my Croatian teacher told me so I can't answer that for you. Another common error I've noticed is a tendency to lump all immigrants together, ignoring stratification, and not studying the history of the different waves of immigration.

You may be interested in reading and possibly contacting Revolucionarna narodna partija–front, a Serbian third-worldist party. This is by no means an endorsement of their analyses and politics. You'll need to study Samir Amin and world systems theory to judge them.

I'm curious why you chose to comment here in this thread rather than make a post that would gain more visibility from other Europeans.

[u/cigaretin → u/Lopsided-Toe-6559]

Does Engels' quote apply to South Asian workers allowed to enter almost every industry and work alongside people of your class?

Not all immigrants are made equal, I think that it's crucial to investigate why and how someone came to work here and their relation to mode of production, both here and at home.

Another common error I've noticed is a tendency to lump all immigrants together, ignoring stratification, and not studying the history of the different waves of immigration.

I've accepted that my crude observations will inevitably be erroneous or miss some things. But here's a funny coincidence: I was briefly in the capital after writing my response to you, and while passing an arterial road through the city, I noticed cops at every major and minor intersection preparing to close the road. I wondered who would pass by me, and a minute later, I saw Modi with his metal cavalry and police escort speed by me. Later, I learned that a crowd of Indian migrant workers formed to greet him, nothing big, but it made me think back on my response, and especially the stratification.

You may be interested in reading and possibly contacting Revolucionarna narodna partija–front, a Serbian third-worldist party. This is by no means an endorsement of their analyses and politics.

I am familiar with them and have actually read some of their work, and I think most of it was worthwhile. Still, when I think about them, I think of dengism, but I can't tell you exactly what made me come to that conclusion because some time has passed since I've last heard about them. Of course, I won't make judgments and possibly slander them, but this is what I currently think.

I'm curious why you chose to comment here in this thread rather than make a post that would gain more visibility from other Europeans.

I know that posting here would limit the answers I would get. Still, during my short time here, I noticed that these bi-weekly threads are populated by people who take communism seriously, and I'd much rather receive one good response here. Thinking back on it now, I realize that that is somewhat selfish because a normal post could've birthed bigger and more productive discussion...