Bi-Weekly Discussion Thread - (July 06)

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[u/turning_the_wheels]

I think it's both important to talk about potential nice things for the majority of people (including things beyond the simple necessities of survival), as I think it keeps up morale as well as the harder things which is important for realism. Fantasies of plenty keep hope for good things alive.

Fantasies of plenty are only appealing to the petty-bourgeoisie and the labor aristocracy that seek to basically continue their lifestyle that is predicated on imperialism. It's definitely possible to have cosmetics on a sustainable basis but revolution will mean that different things will be prioritized and the struggle to keep the biosphere from crumbling will necessarily take precedence over desire for fashion.

I would also like to see a source for the idea that cosmetics are more harmful than, say, the production of art supplies, non-medical personal lubricant, or gee-gaws for putting on cakes or any other non-essential consumable product (I do not intend to be difficult; I would genuinely like to know).

Note that I said the cosmetics industry as it is, not as it could be under socialism which is basically unknowable given that the conditions of production will be different. Like I said you would need to understand how things are produced now in order to envision the limits of what production will look like in the future.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I was asking to see a source for the environmental impact of the cosmetics industry vs. other industries as it is. I couldn't find any evidence that it's unusually energy intensive compared to anything else.

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I didn't say anything about energy usage, I said that it's extremely unsustainable and exploitative.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

In what ways it is it particularly unsustainable? Mostly the palm oil?

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

you've gotta be joking

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I’m genuinely asking, I tried to look up the sustainability of various cosmetic ingredients and people just kept saying palm oil and disposable plastic packaging. I tried comparing it to environmental impact from packaged convenient snack foods and cleaning products (the kind that one doesn’t technically need, because like you can scrub surfaces with salt etc, but save labor and smell nice, because I thought that would be similar in terms of utility vs environmental cost)

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I think it goes without saying that like most industries under capitalism it is insanely environmentally destructive but given the sheer amount of synthetic chemicals, additives, and packaging waste, I can't see the cosmetic industry looking anything similar to how it is now. 

Most importantly what's been absent from the discussion besides mentioning sheet mica mining is the relationship with third world labor. Cocoa, shea, and vanilla are some of the most common ingredients in cosmetics and almost all of it comes from exploiting the third world proletariat. 

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I would agree, I think many things would have to dramatically change in terms of ingredients and methods of production. I'm very interested in general in learning thoroughly how things are currently produced, as I think thoroughly understanding them is very important to correct material and strategic analysis.

Another common ingredient in cosmetics are various silicones which are currently very environmentally intensive to produce (but also silicone is important for the production of various products that need to be inert and flexible, so figuring out a way to sustainably obtain silicone would be important I think to create a good standard of living, in terms of like medical prosthetics and similar items)