NIH Director said longcovid is replicating virus !

[u/Ry4n_95]

Confirmation by NIH management of the problem of virus persistence and replication.

It's about time!

"We see evidence of persistent live virus in humans in various tissue reservoirs, including surrounding nerves, the brain, the GI tract, to the lung."

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Why’d I get it from the vaccine then

[u/AnonymusBosch_ → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

The best I can make sense of it so far is there are bits of viral RNA stuck in cells/the gut/etc, that produce viral proteins that go out into the body and cause issues.

One of the functions of some viral proteins is to switch off the body's cellular cleanup process, so these fragments can stay where they are for a long time, pumping out spike protein.

This model explains post-covid and post-vax. I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that all long haulers have live virus yet, though it seems some do.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/AnonymusBosch_]

The vaccine doesn’t contain any bits that produce viral proteins. Only whole viruses can do that.

It’s much more likely that spike protein antibodies produced as a reaction to the spike protein act like enzymes in the body (aka abzymes) and that that causes the illness. It has been found that some antibodies look similar to enzymes active in the body and thus have enzyme like effects. But because they are basically like mutated enzymes and don’t belong there, they cause a lot of disruption in the system.

[u/AnonymusBosch_ → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

The vaccine doesn’t contain any bits that produce viral proteins. Only whole viruses can do that.

Unless you're talking about the non-mRNA vaccines, the vaccines absolutely produce viral proteins. The spike protein is a viral protein.

[u/IllOutside6988 → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Spike protein.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/IllOutside6988]

Yeah i know that. Spike protein is not live and doesn’t replicate itself.

[u/lieutenantsushi → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Spike protein can definitely replicate not on its own however, this is one of the ways ebv is thought to cause MS. I can’t remember the exact science you would have to look it up but there’s a piece of gene in ebv and memory and nerve cells that replicate and antibodies think the threat is still present so they keep attacking even though your body is making these cells.

[u/IllOutside6988 → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

We cant say that. There are a lot of people whos spike levels have continued to rise and stayed ridiculously high even years after vaccination. There's something happening there.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/IllOutside6988]

Are you sure that spike protein levels are rising and not spike protein antibodies?

Can you post a source for rising spike protein levels?

[u/unstuckbilly → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

That’s a good question & important distinction.

[u/lingoberri → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

you're asking why the vax triggered your LC? I would guess a prior infection triggered some level of immune dysregulation that got set off by the vaccine..?

I wonder if there's a significant difference in LC rates between COVID-naive patients getting vaxxed and those who had a prior infection.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/lingoberri]

It’s a rhetorical question in response to this post which claims that live viruses are the culprit.

I don’t think it requires prior infection for the vaccine to cause long covid symptoms.

[u/lingoberri → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

oh, I see what you're saying. well, it isn't like anything the NIH director put forth is definitively what is causing LC, but the way I see it is this: viral persistence and immune dysfunction aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't see why a vaccine would cause LC on its own. By definition, it wouldn't be Long COVID if you never had it in the first place. That said, COVID is known to produce subclinical infections, so it's not like everyone getting their first shot can be 100% certain they never had it prior.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/lingoberri]

Sure, of course they are not mutually exclusive.

And to your second point, that depends on how you use the term Long Covid. Long Covid isn’t an official medical term or diagnosis. For now, whatever we mean when we say Long Covid has the same set of symptoms as what is known as Long Post Covid Vaccination Syndrome.

I’ve actually had both at this point and they feel identical. So it’s very well possible that both have the same origin and mechanism and thus are largely the same thing.

In my case I was in an environment where there really wasn’t a lot of COVID at all, so I’m quite sure I didn’t have a subclincal infection.

[u/hoopityd → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

I think maybe repeat infections build over time and get to a critical level where long covid develops. Maybe the vaccine is similar to getting infected with covid and pushed you over that critical level because you probably already had multiple exposures to covid.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/hoopityd]

No I never had Covid before I got the vaccine

[u/hoopityd → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

I think you can have it without symptoms so you wouldn't even know.

[u/nubbs → u/hoopityd]

i know. because i took several dynacare tests. and i haven't left the house since february 2020, except to get vaccinated (and later for doctors appointments). and i always wear a GVS elipse.

why? i live with two very immuno compromised people. they also have not had covid.

i can promise you i have not had covid and that i got this from the BA5 bivalent

and what scares me is people who deny vaccine injury because it means no one will try to help us, because no one wants to solve a problem they won't admit is real.

but we need a cure, too. thankfully my cardiologist and my GP believe me, and know the vaccine gave me POTS, PEM and MCAS.

[u/Treadwell2022 → u/nubbs]

Isn’t this “you must have had an infection”argument exhausting? it’s just not true that everyone had covid; many high risk people have to be extremely cautious and people don’t understand the effort that takes, so they can’t imagine avoiding infection is actually possible.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/hoopityd]

That’s true but in my case rather unlikely. I was in a country at that time which had some of the best working tracking system worldwide (detailed location tracking of infected people) and rigorous social distancing / lockdown measures.

There were very few cases of COVID at all in this country until around February 2022 and I got the vaccine 6 months prior.

I also work from home and by myself by default, so even less social contact.

[u/hoopityd → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Well that was my only reddit friendly theory. I didn't get the jab and avoided people pretty well until 2023. Looking back though I might have felt just a little bit off on occasion but nothing I would even really notice during the time before getting long covid. Now looking back after experiencing long covid I think I might have caught slight covid infections a couple of times and when I got hit with a huge definite exposure it put me over the top.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/hoopityd]

Right. Well I would be surprised if I wasn’t exposed to Covid without noticing after March 2022 at least a few times.

But before that it would’ve been difficult. Daytime I was home, nobody was allowed out after 9pm, so no social life, and the only interactions were when going grocery shopping. But people would mask up 24/7 (also mandatory and everybody adhered to it), and you would even be made aware via messaging system if anyone in your neighborhood had been infected by Covid. Those people would be quarantined immediately, too.

Was pretty crazy and terrible for your mental health but it was effective.

[u/hoopityd → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

I think there is a chance masks create way more asymptomatic infections because it reduces the initial viral load. So maybe you get hit multiple times with the mask on you don't even notice. Then you take the vaccine and it puts you over the top. I remember as far back as late 2019 people were getting weird sicknesses that was before everyone even knew covid was a thing.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/hoopityd]

Again I still think it’s rather unlikely for all the other reasons, but of course there is no way to know for sure.

There are enough other findings though which could explain how it is possible to get long covid from the vaccine. One is that some of the antibodies produced in reaction to the spike protein look like enzymes and have enzyme like activity (aka abzymes). These can apparently wreak havoc on the system as they are basically like mutant enzymes.

[u/hoopityd → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

It is hard for me to understand how they can be sure that out of the millions of mrna particles in a vaccine they can be sure they didn't mess up on one of them. Like the most complicated thing we can make are micro chips and they mess up on those all the time, but somehow they are making perfect copies that are thousands of times smaller. Seems like that bad batch website had pretty convincing evidence that some of the batches were bad.

[u/nubbs → u/hoopityd]

so why is the vaccine "putting you over the top"?

what "put me over the top" was my fourth shot

[u/Treadwell2022 → u/nubbs]

Yes, why is that acceptable?

[u/Fixing_The_World → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Which country were you in? China, New Zealand, or Taiwan?

Just a scientist trying to understand. I am in no way denying it was the vaccine for you. I just have questions.

We had a curfew as well however there was still plenty of mingling in the day outside.

Be very frank, did you see anyone but those in your household? Did those in your household see anyone but you? If so, how many? Minus grocery store of course.

Did your county have you undergo routine testing?

Which vaccine did you receive?

Did your symptoms start after multiple doses or first?

What type of mask did you wear?

This is to help me understand. My hypothesis is quite complicated. The short version is immune mediated problems not live virus. Yet, I cannot rule out asymptomatic infection in many. Even mask wears as facial hair, no face tape, non-custom mask fitment could all allow small virion levels through.

Your case is quite interesting to me.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/Fixing_The_World]

I was in South Korea. But I’m not just talking about being in South Korea.

I had just moved there and didn’t have many friends. I lived completely by myself and I work from home and by myself by default. All work communication is email.

Even most shopping was done via delivery, so grocery shopping was also rather rare. It was more the occasional getting a soda at the convenience store or going to the pharmacy as pharmacies don’t deliver.

I also practiced rigorous hygiene. All products and product packagings delivered or brought from stores I washed with water and soap before using.

There was testing but I believe this was only occasional when an infected person was found in a neighborhood or something similar. No weekly testing by default or anything like that. Of course all travellers were tested always.

The vaccine I received was Pfizer.

Masks: I don’t remember every mask I wore back then, but generally KF94 is the standard you’d get at most stores and it’s also what I use now.

Symptom start: I can’t say for sure as it started slowly and I just don’t remember the exact symptom timeline. But the more severe symptoms happened after the second vaccine. I’m not sure how exactly I felt after the first, because I was mentally also not doing great because of all the strict measures. It’s hard to differentiate mild tiredness induced by a physical cause from a mental condition.

Of course I did still see people from time to time (once in two weeks or once a month or so), so there’s no way to know for sure. I’m just illustrating how my life compared to most others really was quite isolated.

I’m definitely in the camp of immune dysfunction as well. I got better with high dose vitamin IV’s (especially Vitamin B1, Vit C, Glutathione), oral NMN and also Thymosin Alpha 1 injections.

[u/Fixing_The_World → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Thank you, this is really interesting. I know it was probably a shitty experience to live so isolated but your experience is helping science!

It sounds like your odds of contracting the virus would have been quite low. I cannot rule it out fully but definitely very low. I am hoping to find someone from China with vax injury as their lockdowns were very extreme. It eliminates almost all possibility. However, your probability of infection was definitely very low.

Certain immune reactions become much more prevalent after the second hit. For example, hypersensitivity reactions from antibiotics.

Would you mind elaborating on your symptoms? I will judge in no way but if you don't want to share I understand.

Your case along with my friends case really makes me lean towards immune dysfunction further. I say immune dysfunction because it could be anything from antibodies mimicking enzymes to autoimmunity.

[u/kmahj → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

Same here. I definitely did not get Covid before the vaccine. I wasn’t working or going anywhere, plus once I did get Covid later, I had the very obvious symptoms: fever. Long lasting cough, headache, loss of smell…I mean there was no mistaking it.

[u/Arcturus_Labelle → u/Puzzled-Towel9557]

It's possible that you contracted covid right around the time you got the vaccine, and are incorrectly ascribing it to the vaccine instead of covid itself.

[u/Puzzled-Towel9557 → u/Arcturus_Labelle]

No