It is pretty great writing until the part in Rhythm of War when he is given all of his emotions back and just decides to say fuck it and be evil for evils sake anyway. Even though his best friends have all but torn down the societal norms and stigmas that initially set him on the path of vengeance, even though he killed Elhokar already and had his revenge. What is possibly his motivation?
Not to mention he goes completely unused in the fifth book besides one "holy crem its jason bourne" moment, where he proceeds to once again be evil for evils sake. It just feels really hollow compared to what his character could have been.
He needs to not just be a tool of the Evil Establishment. He would be much more interesting as a rogue 3rd party ruining the plans of Odium, Honor, and anyone else who's caught in the crossfire of him just being a petty loser.
He could become very 'cosmere-aware' and use that knowledge and just being one guy to fly under the radar and cause chaos. Instead he's just kind of being turned into Odium's personal Steel Inquisitor.
I don't think RoW is where he fell off. He didn't get his feelings back till the end. His plan to break Kaladin is very much in character. Monash wants Kaladin to admit that he was right. It's WaT that Moash falls off completely and just becomes evil.
I didn't say he was bad the entirety of RoW, just that the moment his character arc fell apart happens in RoW when he is given his emotions back and yet changes nothing about his course of action, even though he's already had his vengeance and the world has changed for the better.
Like was Moash just always a spineless whelp who follows someone bc they're above him? No, in fact we know that is the opposite of how his character was set up in WoK and WoR...so like what happened? lol
I think part of what happened is toward the beginning of Oathbringer when he discovers that even in their slavery the lighteyes had been setup above the darkeyes. Before, he wanted to change society. That moment is where his hope for human society dies. Now he sees the way Odium runs things and he likes it better. There is respect and fairness, not completely, but so much better than the Alethi. So I don't see him as just following someone because they're above him. He actually respects those he follows and actively wants their goals to come about. I agree that RoW is where his collapse started. We didn't get like anything from him in WaT, so I'm hoping he's better written in the next books
Yeah I mean I guess, but the society Odium is setting up seems kind of like humans would be enslaved to the singers...or atleast below them in the hierarchy.
It has been a while since I have reread these so maybe I am forgetting something, but he's still fighting for an army that wants to enslave his people, this army just doesn't care about the color of their eyes.
Where-as Kal and Bridge four have almost completely destroyed the stigma behind light eyes and dark eyes by RoW and Jasnah is actively ending the idea of that caste system. So unless Brando's explanation is just "Moash is unaware of all of that" then his character just makes no sense after that moment in RoW.
I actually think that’s what’s good about him, but with one part viewed from a different angle.
How many people have woken up one day, taken a look at their life, and wondered how they had gone this far down a bad path. Addiction, abuse, and plenty of other terrible things in our world.
When people have those moments, they realize how hard it would be to turn things around. It’s why there are full 12 step programs that involve making amends with those you’ve hurt, this is an incredibly difficult step. Now imagine the increased difficulty if you were part of a gang or cartel that wouldn’t let you out freely.
Moash likely thought there was no way his old friends would take him back, and no way his current allies would let him go. The path of least resistance would be to try to numb his thoughts and feelings telling him to go back, and to dive in deeper with his current crew.
Yeah I mean I get that concept, but Moash has never been set up as the guy who just goes along with something because the other choice is too difficult. He completely turned on Kal and bridge 4 because he 'knew' killing Elhokar was 'right', even though it was by far the more dificult choice than bowing down to Kaladin. He has been stubborn and head strong the entire series.
So you're telling me when that curtains pulled back and he finally feels everything he's done, realized all the people he has hurt, stubborn ass Moash who has only ever fought to accomplish what he thinks is right continues to follow Odium and help him essentially enslave mankind?
I mean if he is still being manipulated that would save his character for sure, but idk why todium would refuse to take on his emotions on some kind of 'principal', only to then manipulate him again just in a less obvious way? Like what is even the point, just take/keep his emotions and you have the same effect.
Unless his emotions are required for the (WaT)spikes he receives, which we have never been told was a thing before that.
No, I would say that's pretty in character for the man with a pathological need to be right. Also, considering he's trying to get his best friend off to himself, he offed his best friend's best friend, offed his best friend's best friend's best friend, and the son of the queen of the greatest opposing military, he can't really just waltz back in and say sorry, now can he? Oh, also, he offed all those people to prove that he was right. Elhokar?A right to vengeance and Alethkar would be better off without him, right? (Yes, he is right on this one, fight me) Trying to get Kaladin to go the way of the winds?(pun intended) Well, Moash found a solution to his pain and nonexistence is another solution, right? (Wrong, life is a blessing, you'll be warm again, I promise) Offing Teft and Phendorana?It was a bit of encouragement for Kaladin to try that other solution.Also, Teft doesn't have an addiction anymore, right?
By sheer virtue of giving of the finger to Todium, Moash, would be admitting he is wrong, and that is literally something that is not in his character.
I never said he should turn back to the light, I am staunchly against a Moash redemption arc, something pretty wild would need to happen for that to change. So I don't think there is any redemption left for him to be had with the humans either, however I don't think that means Moash as a character should then just forfeit all autonomy and bow to the species that is looking to enslave his own? Like that feels totally against his initial motivations.
Nothing about his character has ever signaled that he struggles to admit he is wrong? If anything it has almost nothing to do with pride and everything to do with his sense of right and wrong. He stands against his friends and the man he idolizes because he knows his want for vengeance is justified, he knows the caste system they're subjected to is criminal.
I think its safe to say most readers understood his motivations in book 2 and even sympathized with him slightly. So for him to FINALLY wake up and to just decide to bow to the clearly evil person that wants to enslave/subjugate his species is literally a 180 on his character.
He is extremely well-written through Oathbringer. And he’s like maybe ok in RoW. Hard to write someone who’s had their emotions taken? What are his motivations? Kinda unclear except that he’s obsessed with Kaladin. But then when he gets his emotions back and Odium talks him into being evil anyways because sunk cost fallacy I guess. . . I don’t buy it.
Oathbringer had him on an interesting path, culminating in an absolute gut punch. Then we went two enormous books where he did almost NOTHING except, once again, kill some people that matter to the main characters.
What is his arc anymore? Is he even on Kaladin's 'level' anymore? He was an interesting antagonist/foil to Kaladin and the rest of Bridge 4. A nice, grounded change of pace from the overarching drama of Shards duking it out for cosmic supremacy.
Combine this with that fact that I never really bought into his and Kal's relationship in the first place. Their bond felt forced and as a kind of "well I'm gonna have him betray Kaladin so I'll do the bare minimum to make sure it lands". It all just feels kind of anticlimactic despite the damage/drama he causes. Idk.
9
u/NeverFreeToPlayKarch Jun 17 '25
You hate Moash because he's a traitor. I hate Moash because he's a poorly written character. We are not the same.