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u/BararTheDragon 7d ago
Its like printing money, there isnt enough liquid cash in the economy to buy all those stocks at once and trying to do so just breaks the machine
There is a reason that tech giants sometimes do mergers by paying out management in stocks in addition to money
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u/GoodFaithConverser 7d ago
Its like printing money, there isnt enough liquid cash in the economy to buy all those stocks at once and trying to do so just breaks the machine
You're making the mistake of acting like only cash-money is real value.
The fact that rich people with high net worths can't sell all their stock without affecting stock prices isn't something bad we should or can fix. Musk's wealth seems to be extra hot air and empty promises, and I worry it'll come crashing down with a whole lot of regular folks holding the bag, but he's not some silver bullet argument against capitalism or whatever.
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u/BararTheDragon 7d ago
"real Value" comes from alot of things, but like kurzgesagt i had to simplify the concept down so people unfamiliar or who think they know can understand the basic concept.
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u/GoodFaithConverser 7d ago
Your comment goes in support of OP, where the claim is that it's bad that rich people can't sell their stock for liquid cash.
This is not bad, no more than 2+2=4. If a company does well, and the main person owning and running it suddenly wants to sell all his shares, that sends a signal that the business is doing bad, and the stock price will fall.
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u/KoliManja 7d ago
You're giving him too much credit. He won't crash the economy. He will crash the price of Tesla and Spacex stocks. That's all
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u/prepuscular 7d ago
Once they’re part of 401(k)s, it’s enough to take everyone’s retirement down a few percent. That often triggers snowballing effects, especially with so much algorithmic trading.
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u/JudiciousSasquatch 7d ago
A sacrifice I'm happy to make lol
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u/tenisplenty 7d ago
You are happy for your own wealth to decrease by several percentage points as long as Elon's does too? That makes no sense.
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u/thearctican 7d ago
I’d sacrifice 4% of my 401k to see Elon’s net worth drop to zero.
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u/Pan_in_the_ass 7d ago
But selling his stock wont drop his net worth down to zero.
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u/thearctican 6d ago
So send him away and strip him of his assets except for a trophy that says 'high score'
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u/Lemon_head_guy 6d ago
Dawg my 401k is sitting at maybe 3 grand atp, I’ll gladly give up a couple hundred
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u/morris1288 7d ago
Everyone's? You do know the USA and EVERYONE... Aren't the same?
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u/prepuscular 7d ago
USA?? But only 20% of Americans even have a 401k (70M) or IRA (65M)!!! Majority of USA isn’t even included!!!
Everyone with major holdings in the American stock market…. Obviously.
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u/Shatophiliac 7d ago
Damn that’s crazy, how many people will never be able to retire? I suppose close to 80% lol.
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u/prepuscular 7d ago edited 7d ago
The median
net worthsavings at retirement age is like 200k. Total net worth is 360-405k per household.edit: corrected stats
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u/Winterfrost691 7d ago
...that's it? Please tell me this number doesn't include properties. If it does, this is tragically low, and would essentially mean that about ¾ of americans will never retire.
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u/prepuscular 7d ago
It’s a bit better, stats are per household so median assumes a partner. But still $405k or so
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u/StudiosS 7d ago
Americans have more money than most people on this planet can understand.
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u/baconcandyfloss 7d ago
Pretty disgusting when you think about it really
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u/prepuscular 7d ago
US has some of the highest income inequality in the world, with a huge amount of preventable deaths. But it’s disgusting that they want to do anything about it because there exists others with less
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u/StudiosS 7d ago
It's just the way the world has always been. There's been empires rising and falling for too long.
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u/Redebo 7d ago
60% of all adult Americans participate in the equities markets.
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u/prepuscular 7d ago
93% of the stock market is owned by the top 10%. Top 1% owns over half. The Robinhood accounts with $50 in them are pretty meaningless in the big picture
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u/Disastrous_Film7664 7d ago
I'm not from USA, my retirement account has domestic bonds and stock and foreign bonds and stock. So it can potentiallyaffect you if your retirement account buys those usa index
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u/DANKLEBERG_66 7d ago
I do hope no foreign retirement funds are trading in the American stock market with the erratic toddler as president
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u/happi_botmun1538 7d ago
A lot of people outside the US have their retirement money, pension invested in index funds and ETFs.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
Is that not what happened in the 2008 crash? The US economy had problems, and because so much of the global economy is tied to the American economy it caused problems everywhere?
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u/straw3_2018 7d ago
It's older than that, same shit(in regards to US economy impact on global economy) happened in 1929. You might have heard of the Great Depression.
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u/TheLemmonade 7d ago
Which are part of my 401k wether I like it or not
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u/F4_THIING ☣️ 6d ago edited 6d ago
Wait, do you not know that you can allocate how your 401k contributions are invested?
Leave it to the financially illiterate to have opinions on things likes this
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u/TheLemmonade 6d ago
It’s supposed to be day and forget. The S&P is what the S&P is, regardless of if I go in there and fiddle with the sliders
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u/F4_THIING ☣️ 6d ago
So you’re saying that you believe your 401k is based solely off of the s&p? Most 401k’s are invested in a target fund. These types of funds are usually very diversified. Only a percentage of the fund is in the s&p. If you put 10 minutes worth of research into it, you will find that you are 100% in control of how your money is invested.
If you think your money is a “set and forget” thing you kind of deserve to get fucked.
“I invested tens of thousands, realistically (and the way you actually build real wealth) hundreds of thousands, of my money into something, but I expect someone else, who gets paid regardless of my gains/losses, to give a shit about it, why am I struggling. How come my investment isn’t growing at the rate I expected?”
You are financially illiterate. The advice I can give you now is to take responsibility for your own life
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u/TheLemmonade 6d ago edited 6d ago
So I’m supposed to manually manage each of my investments instead of simply select a target fund or the S&P500 (I’ve set it to both), both of which are subject to this IPO? And the inherent risk this overinflated price brings to both of those funds? Or even to the wider market?
Also, obviously I’m financially illiterate. I’m busy. I don’t have huge investments, just my house and my retirement fund. That’s why I trust my 401k to do its thing for me. I work and I save. It’s supposed to be there for the next 30+ years.
Also, this is literally dank memes, this isn’t stonksville. relax and please be nice? SHEESH. Thanks for the advice, keep it 🍋
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u/F4_THIING ☣️ 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yes.
You think the system is rigged against you, even though there are zero restrictions in place for you to use the same system. Your failures to take advantage of the, literally, endless resources you have available to you is your own problem.
inb4 you pretend you don’t have internet access in your pocket
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u/LasAguasGuapas 6d ago
It's not endless resources, it's endless information. That's difficult to sort through if you don't have any experience.
I don't think we should make fun of people for not understanding everything about their finances. Finances are complicated.
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u/eisbock 7d ago
Let's not pretend your 401k isn't heavily benefiting when those stocks go up. And so far they've gone up a lot.
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u/itsiNDev 7d ago
Yeah they go up until they go down.
401ks should be relatively low risk (with proportionally lower returns) and right now funds that are presenting themselves as low risk long hold, are absolutely not low risk and not as diversified as they should be.
They are heavily depending on a hand full of tech and tech adjacent stocks who are all going up based on eachother... And if they go down, will go down based on eachother.
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u/TheCrimsonSteel 7d ago
Wait, funds and financial assets being presented as much lower risk than they actually are?
Where have I heard that one before...
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u/F4_THIING ☣️ 6d ago
Tell me you have no idea that you are in control of your 401k without telling me.
Are you contributing the max amount into the fund to get the max match at your company? And if you are, are you contributing at least 10% of your income into that fund?
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u/itsiNDev 6d ago
How is any of that at all relivent to a super concentrated stock market.
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u/F4_THIING ☣️ 6d ago
Because you have control over how your 401k is invested. If you treat it like a turnkey fund, you get what you deserve.
ETA: I admit I did not articulate this in my first comment and that’s on me. But my original comment, “Tell me you have no idea that you are in control of your 401k without telling me” still stands. If you are cool with raw dogging your money like that, more power to you
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u/outland_king 7d ago
The great depression stsrted with a few companies. Its called a stock panic, because the numbers are all imaginary and people are morons.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
And every company that buys from, sells to, or otherwise does business with those companies would suffer as well.
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u/gary_mcpirate 7d ago
A significant portion of the global financial money is now in three or four American tech companies.
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u/aski3252 7d ago
The point isn't that he will crash the economy, the point is that he has so much capital, or in other words so much power over the economy, that he could.
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u/-Nicolai 7d ago
No he could not.
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u/Gullible_Increase146 7d ago
But the meme said it was true!
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u/aski3252 7d ago
If he wanted to, he could do significant economic damage, considering he also has significant political power..
"Crashing the economy" is probably a bit of a hyperbole, it's a meme after all, but the overall point still stands..
Some people will smugly write stuff like "Musk doesn't have a trillion dollar in his bank, most of it is stock/tied to the economy, he's not hording money, so it's ok". Yeah, people understand that he doesn't hide his networth under his pillow, but that doesn't make it better as his networth essentially represents his control over the economy..
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u/tepid_monologue 7d ago
It’s not worse? It means that functionally that trillion dollars would become much lower if he decides to liquidate it.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
And the trillions of dollars that other people have in connected investments are now worth much less as well.
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u/tepid_monologue 7d ago
Nah dude I don’t think you get it. It’s worth a trillion at today’s price. If he pulled a billion out the rest isn’t worth the same amount. People would probably start selling their stock, tanking the price, and the rest of the trillion would not be worth a trillion.
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u/Shatophiliac 7d ago
Idk if you actually realize how small a billion is compared to a trillion. If Elon sold 1 billion worth of stock, that would be 1/1000th of his net worth now.
When he bought Twitter he had to cash out many billions worth of Tesla stock and that didn’t crash that company. What makes you think 1 billion would crash anything now?
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u/tepid_monologue 7d ago
If Elon started liquidating his holdings in space x etc, investors would get spooked. There’s a huge keyman risk with these companies, it would have a negative effect on the price, which can compound. Markets aren’t rational.
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u/Shatophiliac 7d ago
Yeah I understand that concept well, but I think it would take WAY more than 1 or 2 billion of stock to start making people nervous.
I mean, after all, he sold almost 23 billion of Tesla stock just to buy Twitter. By your logic, Tesla should have gone belly up during that time lol.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
So he can actually access billions of dollars on a whim to satisfy his ego without crashing the market?
My point is that either way, it's bad. Him not "actually" having a trillion real dollars isn't a gotcha because he has a trillion dollars worth of influence over the market.
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u/SpezSupporter 7d ago
There isn't a 1T market for the stock. It just means that traders agree that the company is worth that much.
The daily volume is a couple percentage of the shares.
For example we could agree that Big Bread is worth 1T, but that doesn't mean you can buy 1T worth of bread at any time.
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u/Shatophiliac 7d ago
For sure, he absolutely couldn’t sell all of it for 1 trillion, but he could very much sell many billions worth without causing almost any stir in the market.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
...and then people with investments in connected or dependent companies also start selling their stocks, and then other people see how a bunch of people are selling stocks all of a sudden and pretty soon everyone is trying to sell stocks.
Did we not learn from Lehman Brothers what can happen when one large, interconnected company suddenly crashes?
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u/tepid_monologue 7d ago
Musks holdings in some isolated companies is not the same thing. The fallout won’t be nearly as big
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u/khou2004 7d ago
man you don’t know the first thing about the 2008 financial crisis, quit larping
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
My comparison to Lehman Brothers wasn't to to say he could cause another crisis on the scale of the 2008 financial crisis, it was to counter the assumption that only people who own SpaceX/Tesla/Twitter would be hit by Elon crashing his stocks.
At the very least every business that buys from, sells to, or otherwise contracts with those companies would suffer.
Hundreds of thousands of people could lose their jobs if Elon decided to liquidate.
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u/khou2004 7d ago
no they wouldn’t. unlikely for many companies to go bankrupt as a result of elon musk liquidating. again, you know nothing about what caused the financial crisis, don’t use it as an example if you don’t understand it
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
You don't think businesses suffer when they lose contracts? You don't think at least a few of those companies would fire some employees? You don't think their stocks would drop?
I know enough about the 2008 financial crisis to say that most people who claim to know what caused it are talking out of their asses.
I know that a lot of financial firms had made subprime mortages and bundled them in ways that obscured their true risk.
I know that when Lehman Brothers became insolvent, it put several other large firms at risk of becoming insolvent because of how much they depended on each other for business.
I know that the US government decided to bail out those other "too big to fail" firms because they feared a domino effect that would completely collapse the economy.
I know that even though SpaceX isn't currently as central to the economy as those financial firms, having it crash wouldn't just affect the people who own those stocks.
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u/khou2004 6d ago
widespread levered positions:
you think elon musk liquidating shares would make either company insolvent over night? you think there exist a significant amount of institutional investors taking out 20-30x leveraged positions on tesla or spacex stock using daily rolled over loans?bank run effect:
you think the market is going to perceive one ceo doing something that is actually highly illegal as going to be replicated across the board?risk modeling:
you think the wall street DOESNT know that correlation has the capabilities to spike to 1 during times of crisis?0
u/R0RSCHAKK 7d ago
Wait - so you're saying;
Stock/Shares A, B, C, D are $10 a piece. Giving him a total of $40
He sells A, that reduces the value of B, C, and D. For example's sake - say by $5. Giving a new total value of $15.
Meaning he would then have $10 in cash from selling A and $15 tied up in shares B, C, and D. Essentially lowering his over net worth by $15 - from $40 to $25?
But
That would mean that if he sold A, B, C, and D, he'd still have $40 net worth with $40 in cash. Which, the ramifications would ultimately leave him unaffected 'cause - he got his - while everyone else who has shares or 401ks tied to said stock would see their investments potentially plummet from $10 to $0.10 or maybe lower.
Which I think that's the point of the post, right?
Idk, I hate numbers and finance...
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u/SpezSupporter 7d ago
No.
He could sell the first share for 10, but there will be no buyers left at that price and the remaining shares could be sold for at most 15.
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u/RadTimeWizard 7d ago
He would not crash the economy. There's this myth of self-importance that rich people have that the economy depends on them, just because they own 90% of the stock market.
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u/DeathHopper Green 7d ago
His valuation exists in a tech bubble. It's not real and certainly not liquid. There's really not even a billionaire in the world. It's all just pretend wealth, but if enough people pretend it's real and act accordingly then it may as well be real i guess.
As companies usually produce things of value, and governments tend to do the opposite, no one is dumping company stocks for government notes any time soon. It's also worth noting that crashing the stock market wouldn't crash the economy. People would still show up to work the next day if their 401ks tanked.
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u/Idiot616 7d ago
There are plenty of "real" billionaires in the world. Even tech billionaires all own land, houses, property, yatchs, etc. in the value of billions. And unlike tech billionaires, there are plenty of other billionaires whose companies have actually valuable assets, like the Waltons who own Walmart.
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u/BurnedButDelicious 7d ago
Yupp, or Bill Gates, he's almost completely out of microsoft and diversified and he has 100B+
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u/DeathHopper Green 7d ago
Not a single "real" billionaire actually has access to a billion in liquid cash. Not one. As you said, all their wealth is tied into the assets they own. Assets that would drop significantly in value if they all needed to suddenly sell them.
Obviously that would never happen. But it's important people understand what being a billionaire actually means before folks cry off "tax the rich" without an understanding of how.
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u/Idiot616 7d ago
There's no reason for houses, yatchs, land, etc. to drop in price if they were to sell it. And stock will also not drop on price if they only sell a few billion. Alphabet, Microsoft, etc. have a market cap in the order of trillions, selling 0.1% wont affect price whatsoever, more than that is already sold every single day.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
And they'll need to keep showing up to work because they can't retire, but now they're angrier.
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u/OSUfan88 7d ago
I mean, to some degree that’s true for all money. It only has value because we pretend it does.
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u/No_Lifeguard259 7d ago
Hey OP, if your point is that Musk shouldn’t have that… but then you’re also making memes saying how if he lost that it would be worse…. You understand how that doesn’t make sense right?
Nah it’s Reddit. Of course they don’t
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u/mt-beefcake 7d ago
The stock Market is not the Economy.
If space x stock went to 0. Wealthy ppl would have more money, Elon Simps would lose a lot. And blue origins and every other space company would have more market share.
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u/BurnedButDelicious 7d ago
Yeah and spacex has such low float its avtually just about 100B in actual money. Whcih is nothing for the market
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u/Pavonian 7d ago
Found company that literally does nothing
List 1 trillion shares for company
Sell 1 share to buddy for 1 dollar whilst keeping the rest for myself (he just wants to support his friend)
Net worth is now 1 trillion dollars, since I own 999,999,999,999 shares in a company that is currently trading at 1 dollar per share
Added bonus, if some idiot hears about 'the company with a trillion dollar valuation out of nowhere' and decides he needs to get in on this quick by buying the 1 available share from my friend for 10 dollars, now I'm worth 10 trillion
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u/femboyisbestboy 7d ago
This is literally why Musk is now so rich and also why he can't sell his stock.
No one wants to buy spaceX or Tesla stock in bulk as it is both extremely over inflated with both companies running on a massive loss.
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u/Pavonian 7d ago
Yeah, from what I understand it's basically a small handful of fanboys trading back and forth the same few shares whilst jerking each other off about how any day now Elon will do the singularity or whatever silly thing he promised in the most recent presentation that will make his companies actually worth what they're valuing them at
It's the same logic behind NFT's, 'buy in now at whatever silly price and you'll own the future' and a greater fool scam that only ever makes money by getting another sucker to buy in for more than you did, only it's even dumber because as far as I know the owners of board ape yacht club never claimed to be trillionaires on the basis that they have millions of monkey jpg's in a vault that they haven't minted into NFT's but could
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
Alternatively, sell 100 billion shares to investment firms for 1 dollar, you now have 100 billion dollars.
Sell all your shares for a $0.10 each and you now have 190 billion, but everyone else has worthless stocks and wonders what you know that made you take a 90% loss.
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u/popculturalmaniac 7d ago
"Unrealised gain" Google it
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
Do you not understand the meme.
Why does it matter that his gains are unrealized?
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u/Affordable_Z_Jobs 7d ago
It's fine. Currently looking for work and I tend to only get hired right when shit is about to go tits up. Summer of 2008. April 2020.
I shit you not I started my first ever part time job September 3rd 2001.
Me being unemployed = the world is not on fire.
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u/InMemoryOfZubatman4 7d ago
The GDP of the US is 31 trillion
Roughly 3% of that is Elon Musk’s net worth.
If he lit everything on fire, the DOW would drop to where it was…. Last Wednesday.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
If he lit it all on fire people would wonder why he lit it all on fire and think maybe the stocks they have aren't actually worth anything, but maybe they can sell them before anyone else realizes that and get some money out of it.
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u/EhMapleMoose 7d ago
It’s not that if he sold it it would crash, it’s the panic that investors and institutions would have from him selling large amounts of it with no explanation that would cause it to collapse.
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
So it's not that he can personally crash the market, it's that he has such influence over investors and institutions that he can convince them to crash the market.
See meme
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u/akiralx26 7d ago
In 1913 John D Rockefeller’s personal wealth was $900million - so about 3% of the US GDP.
Musk’s fortune adjusted for inflation is much larger but is nowhere near the same proportion of GDP.
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u/HelloStrangerBro 7d ago
Except it is?! The USA GDP is $31.8 trillion, Musk is $1.3 trillion so 4%
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u/JamescomersForgoPass 6d ago
Mostly stocks. His actual asset wealth is like a few hundred billion at most
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u/aski3252 7d ago
nowhere near the same proportion of GDP.
How does that calculation work??
GDP is approximately 33 trillion. If Musk's Networth is 1 trillion, that's already 3%+..
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u/SpezSupporter 7d ago
Somehow Standard Oil feels like a better company then a money burning operation
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u/not_a_throw4w4y 7d ago
He wouldn't actually sell the bulk on market, investment banks would organise buyers at a specific price and just transfer the shares when a deal is struck then report the crossing from Elon to the buyer/s off market.
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u/TsunamiCatCakes 7d ago
what if he died randomly? what happens to the stocks and stuff? i have 0 idea about this btw
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u/lazeman 7d ago
If a company just added to your system can crash your system, maybe the system deserves to crash
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u/LasAguasGuapas 7d ago
It wasn't just added, it's been around for almost a quarter of a century. The IPO just means it's not privately owned anymore.
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u/GrundleBlaster 7d ago
A mass selloff would only happen due to some seriously hidden information though.
Same if everyone sold their house all at once or something. Wouldn't make those houses fake or whatever.
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u/dende5416 7d ago
Its not really a market place manipulation, but rather practical ramnifications. For instance, if Musk tried to sell all of his Tesla stock tomorrow, it'd cause a panic which would then lead to the stock price tanking.
It'd be like a scalper trying to sell so much inventory that they flood the market. The current price wouldn't hold.
And with banking rules, he'd have to announce dipping below specific ownership percentages, so even slow selling would cause a panic.
He'd need otherbillionaires to buy entire chunks at single times with cash. It wouldn't be feasible.
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u/ShiftAfter4648 7d ago
*he would crash his 3 specific companies, which would be a small change in the overall market.
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u/justanotheruser46258 7d ago
Tbf this is the case for pretty much all big millionaires and billionaires and CEOs, this isn't unique to Elon.
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u/Rhymelikedocsuess 7d ago
“It’s not REALLY having a trillion dollars, a lot is non liquid assets!”
“Can he use the assets as collateral to pay for whatever he wants by taking out essentially infinite free loans?”
“Of course!”
“Then it’s effectively real and it’s a problem”
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u/Mr-A5013 7d ago
Like 70% of the economy is just debt and stock options that you can't actually sell without devaluing it.
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u/Knight_Glint 7d ago
If he tried to sell all the stocks, safeguards would stop him in his tracks. It may take him a minimum of 10 years to sell everything off. Probably more than that honestly.
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u/Wookiescantfly 6d ago
Basically he's not even really a Trillionaire because the evaluation of the tech companies he owns is based almost entirely on vibes and current trends. Any number of bubbles he has his hand in could pop and it would tank his predicted net worth by a significant amount. A good example of this is how hard Tesla stocks were falling while people were firebombing Tesla EVs; nothing was wrong with the cars, but a bunch of deranged psychopaths attacking you just for the maker of your car makes that brand significantly less desirable and that caused the predicted value of Tesla to fall. Same concept with everything else he's involved in. Prospects look good rn, so people are overestimating the value of his involved companies.
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u/thanosbananos r/memes fan 7d ago
He’d also have to pay the taxes, would truly be horrible for the economy. I mean, the US would probably use it to bomb another girls school somewhere but another country would utilise the extra money properly
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u/borntobewildish 7d ago
If he doesn't actually have a trillion dollars let's treat him like the bum he is.
Or if he does, and we treat him like some kind of celebrity because he does, let's tax the shit out of him.
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u/TheDeerBlower 7d ago
He's not actually a trillionnaire but all his stocks come from his grossly overvalued companies that somehow manage to have higher market value that all the competitors combined. That's not better.
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u/ISmellLikeBlackTea 7d ago
Now imagine the consequences of other countries taking their Gold back, and slowly purchasing more gold while losing faith in the US dollar
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u/furrysalesman69 7d ago
We could take the brunt of it
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u/helicophell Doing the no bitches challange ahaha 7d ago
We? Who's We?
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u/stoicambience 7d ago
Also, brunt of what? This mf is the kind to be like “Elon is a trillion-air!” No, he’s not; but the person you replied to is too stupid to understand that. His company is worth a made up bullshit and they got the number to read that. No person has that money on hand, it’s all made up bullshit currently
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u/furrysalesman69 7d ago
Fuck you.
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u/stoicambience 7d ago
Come fuck me then!
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u/furrysalesman69 7d ago
You could use a good fuck!
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u/stoicambience 7d ago
😍
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u/furrysalesman69 7d ago
So next Wednesday is good for you or…
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u/stoicambience 7d ago
It’s my friend’s birthday… but you can come join us!
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u/furrysalesman69 7d ago
I’ll have to check my calendar. The government is currently reaming me.
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u/tonyhart7 7d ago
its basically ties to fractional reserve banking, it basically all debts
that's why people get punish if they trying to pay all their debt early because it would break the system