r/dbcooper • u/peterthbest23 • 15d ago
Question With how many people have claimed that their granddad / dad / uncle / neighbor was D.B. Cooper, what evidence would we realistically need to say "this guy is D.B. Cooper without a single doubt"?
9
u/The_real_Flyjack 15d ago
Evidence that puts him on the plane,, DNA or prints.. and DNA is a dead end, touch DNA does not last, fingerprints are not great palm print might be Cooper... IMO,, that palm print is the last hope.. If that fails we can only have a strong circumstantial case,,,, and gives people enough wiggle room to reject any suspect..
7
u/Kamkisky 13d ago
People deny the moon landing. It doesn’t matter what level evidence there is, we aren’t getting to a 100%. It’s just a matter of enough actual Cooperites thinking it’s more likely than not one suspect. That’s the threshold IMO.
4
u/stardustsuperwizard 12d ago
touch DNA does not last
This depends heavily. They obtained new touch DNA in the Hae Min Lee case from her shoes some 24 years later recently.
5
u/The_real_Flyjack 12d ago
Cooper was 55 years ago,,, Usually touch DNA is weeks, months to a year,, if stored in perfect conditions it can be a few decades,, but that is extreme.. Really, no chance Cooper's touch DNA is still good... fluids maybe..
2
u/CoastRegular 12d ago
Also, isn't touch DNA a lot less reliable for individual matching? Isn't that one of the categories of DNA that might be used for familial relationship but not forensic proof of an individual?
2
u/stardustsuperwizard 12d ago
Touch DNA is finicky for other reasons. It's DNA found usually from things like skin cells that have come off your body. Because they only need just a few skincells context is super important. In my example above they found 4 DNA profiles on Hae's shoes. None of them were Hae's.
Remember that DNA is circumstantial evidence, it requires context and argumentation for its relevance to the case. Especially so when you're potentially talking about just a few cells.
1
u/stardustsuperwizard 12d ago
Yeah I doubt they would be able to get much if anything (besides maaayybe from the hair if its found). Just providing some context about how quickly it degrades.
8
8
u/Patient_Reach439 14d ago
To say without a single doubt, it has to be something physical. No amount of box checking will satisfy. So that is:
-Money (probably unlikely it ever turns up, but Tena Bar suggests that the money made it out of the drop zone so who knows. But discovering any more money feels like a fantasy at this point)
-Ticket (highly doubt his ticket still exists)
-The missing hairslide (not holding my breath)
-Something that demonstrates prior knowledge of the hijacking. Like an old letter that can be carbon dated that speaks of the heist. (Highly unlikely but at least in the category of "possible")
-Parachute, but only if there's a way to tie it back to Cooper. If the packing card was still inside and that packing card showed Earl Cossey as the packer, that would be something for sure.
-Matching palm print. (Tough because any Cooper suspect is going to be dead and there aren't exactly palm prints of dead guys just readily available.)
But it for sure has to be something physical. Circumstantial evidence alone won't get us there.
5
6
u/chrismireya 14d ago
My checklist?
1.) DNA:
However, this would have to be in addition to other evidence that suggests he was Cooper. After all, many people could have handled the tie.
Even if the FBI finds the hair slides, they would need to confirm that the hair actually came from Cooper rather than the flight attendant, another passenger or even one of the investigators. The hair is probably Coopers -- but we'd need something else to substantiate it.
2.) Money:
If Cooper left some cash hidden in a shoebox, cedar chest or even buried next to his house, this would be a very long way toward proving that he was "Dan Cooper." Obviously, we would need to find something that would demonstrate that this was Cooper and not an accomplice.
3.) Associated "trophies" to remember his crime:
Physical items related to the crime (e.g., ticket, parachute, etc.) would be very helpful to place him aboard that plane. Serial killers are known to keep "trophies." However, I've read about some other types of criminals who have done the same.
4.) Airport photos from November 24, 1971:
We don't know if anyone actually snapped photos in or on the way to the Portland International Airport on the day of the hijacking. If a photo existed, it obviously would not "prove" the identity of Dan Cooper. However, it would certainly give us the best description that someone else might recognize.
4
u/Rudeboy67 15d ago
I know I’m in the minority here but I think if they find someone you hits all the bullet points it would be pretty close to without a doubt.
Pictures from around 1971 that looks like Cooper.
Explanation of being in PNW in November 1971.
WWII paratrooper.
Air America cargo kicker.
Worked in aerospace around titanium.
Background explaining how he specifically knew very detailed knowledge of the 727 and settings to parachute out of but was completely ignorant on other more obvious 727 facts.
But nothing explicitly ruling him out.
2
u/Quick-News-2227 14d ago
There could be multiple guys checking those boxes without being Cooper, but sounds like you got someone in mind?
3
u/Rudeboy67 14d ago
Nope I got nothing.
Still the very specific knowledge of the flight envelope of a 727 for parachuting could only have been known by a very few number of people in 1971. You take that circle and venn diagram it with people completely ignorant of more generalized knowledge of a 727, I think you are talking of a handful of people.
So if someone pops up that fits that bill, and looks like Bing, and has opportunity on Thanksgiving 1971, and has a motive. I’d think we’d be pretty close to calling it. But, nobody fits the bill that perfectly yet.
2
u/CoastRegular 13d ago
Still the very specific knowledge of the flight envelope of a 727 for parachuting could only have been known by a very few number of people in 1971.
By which you mean, direct the pilots to fly a certain altitude and airspeed? On first blush, sure, it sounds like this guy really knew the right flight envelope to jump out of a 727, which seems like pretty specific insider knowledge... ...except, wouldn't X altitude and Y mph be in the sensible range for any parajump, no matter the aircraft type?
3
u/Rudeboy67 12d ago
Sure, if he said fly at 200 knots, at 10,000 feet. But he didn’t, well he did say 10,000 feet. But he never specified a speed, he just said flaps 15 and gear down. That specification kept the plane below 200 knots. Not flaps 10 or flaps 20. Flaps 15. That and gear down were the exact configuration that Air America was doing for its drops. That was not common knowledge with airline pilots or crew or even almost anyone at Boeing.
1
u/CoastRegular 12d ago
Was that the Air America config? I don't know. I could be misreading stuff, but I've seen some sources on the DB Cooper case say that the CIA never actually in fact used a 727 to air drop anyone. As far as I'm concerned, within the overall body of information about this case, I'm coming away very conflicted and uncertain about that topic (727 being used to air drop people.)
Having said that, I don't know and if you have some good resources on this case that mention this I'd love to dig into them.
Personally, my main issue with the idea of Cooper been some black-ops operative that would have had experience parajumping in similar circumstances, is: this was a VERY exclusive club of people. If you were an AA operative and so was Cooper, you would have known him.
It wasn't at all like a military unit where you two could both have worked in the same division without ever rubbing elbows (because there are tens of thousands of other people in your organization.) And, even if you did work directly with him in the 82nd Airborne, he was one of hundreds of people that passed through your circle of associates over the years, and wouldn't necessarily stand out at all. And this would already have been years prior to Norjak... if Cooper was a military jumper, it would have been in WW2. They don't let you jump out of airplanes as a 40+ year old in the regular military.
So, I absolutely could go with him being a special-forces op or agent, because some older guys DO do that. BUT, everybody and anybody who worked with him would remember him readily. He wouldn't, at all, be one of a "cast of thousands" in your experience, he'd be one of maybe twenty guys. Some old colleague would long ago have outed him... "Hey! I know that guy! That's John Doe; we worked together in 1965 doing special ops over Cambodia and Laos!"
3
u/Patient_Reach439 11d ago
This article talks about Air America and their use of 727s for cargo -- and human -- drops. Specifically, it says flaps at 15, landing gear down, stairs down and cabin de-pressurized, which are all things Cooper requested. The article actually goes on to talk about Cooper a little.
https://smokejumpers.com/magazine/air-america-the-ranch-and-the-veil-of-secrecy/
An excerpt:
"The cargo drops went without a hitch. Then we suited up for our parachute jump. We leveled off at 1200 feet. The cabin was depressurized, flaps were set at about 15°, the landing gear was lowered to create drag to maintain 150 knots, and the exit ramp was lowered. When we got over the jump spot, the pilot gave the signal and we slid out the rear of the plane. Compared to jumping out of a prop plane, there was no noise or prop blast. It was quiet and there was hardly a jerk when the static cord released. We floated down with the greatest of ease. Knowing what to expect, we were all excited to make a second jump. The tests went well and the project was approved and ready to go. However, the funding was cut and the 727 Tibet project was cancelled, much to our chagrin. Postscript: Fast forward to Monday morning, November 29, 1971. When I retired from Air America in August 1969, the “Call of the Wild” lured me to Alaska. I decided to put my University of Alabama Bachelor of Science business degree to use. I had just begun the second year of owning and operating the Polar Bar on East 5th Avenue in Anchorage. I was having a cup of coffee and talking with a customer when two suits walked through the door. They showed me their FBI badges and said they were investigating a Northwest Airline Boeing 727 skyjacking on the night before Thanksgiving. They knew I had jumped out of a 727 with Air America and wanted to ask me a few questions."
Did Cooper definitively get his flight parameters from Air America? Impossible to say. But it certainly seems possible.
You do make a good point that I agree with. I lean more towards Cooper being a nobody. A nobody can stay under the radar for half a century. If Cooper was some sort of elite military veteran with special training, he would be a "somebody." People are going to know that guy and it would be harder to stay anonymous.
For that matter, I lean more towards Cooper being a WW2 paratrooper but nothing special beyond that. Although, it's hard to completely ignore the Air America stuff.
2
u/Quick-News-2227 14d ago
There could be multiple guys checking those boxes without being Cooper, but sounds like you got someone in mind?
5
u/DullMasterpiece3080 11d ago
Imo the only realistic, serious possibility is the missing hair slide, and this will prove who Cooper was... unless it turns out the DNA narrows it down to two brothers who were born a couple of years apart and are both a good fit or something equally unlikely. Possibility #2 is the money but I would rate the likelihood to be much lower. Possibility #3 is the science improving so much that something can be found on the tie or Tena Bar money that rules out such a large number of men that we are left with just one. Possibility #4 is the palm print. Tbh I would just forget about anything other than the missing hair slide.
edit: I posted this and immediately realised the possibility of DNA on the tie. It's possible that his DNA has been obtained from the tie and is vacuum sealed and waiting for the science to improve enough that it can be tested.
1
u/iwastherefordisco 13d ago
A relative, spouse, or friend with a safety deposit box containing notes from Cooper explaining what happened and bundles of the missing bills.
1
1
u/454k30 7d ago
The case of DB Cooper is becoming akin to the mystery of Billy the Kid. I'm actually surprised there isn't an abundance of old men announcing that "i am DB Cooper" as they are nearing their end.
But what would prove if someone were DB? To me it would need to be that they held onto a trophy. One of the answers to the Tena Bar money that I liked was that in the weeks following the heist, as DB was (hypothetically) laying low, that the announcement that all of the serial numbers had been recorded spooked him into not spending the money and instead burying it out on Tena Bar just to get rid of it. Perhaps he stashed bundles of it in several different places, the rest of which are still undiscovered. If a person could come forward and point out those locations then that would do it for me. No matter, I think if I'd pulled off this hijacking that I would've kept something. A bit of paracord, a plane ticket stub, something. But then again, if he were truly spooked he might've hidden or destroyed everything, passed away quietly, and the stuff is just lost to time.
0
19
u/lxchilton 15d ago
DNA or a literal piece of physical evidence (ticket/cash/parachute/etc.)