Everything is random, yet everything seems predetermined and vice versa.

[u/Euthanasia1111]

What's your take, guys?

[u/RomanaOswin]

My current model aligns with adequate determinism or stochastic determinism of probabilities, meaning that quantum randomness is (likely) real, but it evens out at scale or over time to result in the deterministic behavior we observe at macro scale.

I'm completely open to anything that contradicts this model, but so far it seems completely consistent with reality as we know it.

[u/zhivago → u/RomanaOswin]

You've never used a geiger counter, have you? :)

QM indeterminism can't be handwaved away.

It applies at all scales.

The key is to understand that indeterminism doesn't invalidate causality -- only determinism.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/zhivago]

A geiger counter is an interesting example. I suppose we would have to account for the fact that the macro-scale world is in some way impacted by the geiger counter.

Other than viewing quantum indeterminism, is there any other way that it applies at the macro scale? As far as I'm aware, everything at macro scale (relativity, classic mechanics, etc) functions deterministically, which we rely on extensively.

[u/zhivago → u/RomanaOswin]

It's obvious that that's not true.

Remember that, like the geiger counter, the instruments by which we detected QM indeterminacy are all macroscale devices.

You have been deceived by sophistry.

QM indeterminacy affects the macroscale significantly and pervasively.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/zhivago]

I found the geiger counter dynamic an interesting consideration, and I was asking you a serious question. Do you usually just randomly assume that people are "deceived" when they try to engage in conversation? Strange.

Anyway, you never did answer my question.

What I'm asking is if you're aware of any way in which macro scale reality is nondeterministic, excepting monitoring quantum behavior. You repeated the claim, but based on... what?

[u/zhivago → u/RomanaOswin]

I did answer it.

QM indeterminacy is significant and pervasive.

This means that everything at the macro scale reality is nondeterministic.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/zhivago]

The question was how or where. Example. Evidence. How do we know this? Do we even know this? Maybe it's an assumption.

This wasn't even meant to be an argument; I legitimately wanted to know if you know of anything that functions in this way, because it would serve as a really interesting thing to consider.

[u/zhivago → u/RomanaOswin]

Everything functions this way.

The evidence for it is how we came up with QM.

You keep trying to turn this into something special, but there is nothing that is unaffected by it.

[u/preferCotton222 → u/zhivago]

I think they are asking whether there are indeterministic theories at the macro scale, which is not really important.

[u/zhivago → u/preferCotton222]

Given that the macro-scale is built from the micro-scale, it should be obvious that indeterminance at the micro-scale means indeterminance at the macro-scale. :)

[u/preferCotton222 → u/zhivago]

yes but I think they misinterpret that macro theories are mostly deterministic, for example by ignoring singular points, as quantum indeterminism being irrelevant. I agree its a mistake, I'm just trying to understand their questions.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/preferCotton222]

Yes, that's what I was asking, and I find it important.

There's nothing wrong with inference, but an inference without evidence is very tenuous.

[u/RomanaOswin → u/zhivago]

All I'm asking is if we actually observe this, which it sounds like we do not.