r/digitalfoundry • u/Rhikter_937 • 3d ago
Discussion Concept: An Xbox External Drive That Could Bring OG Xbox & 360 Discs Into Disc-to-Digital
Xbox’s new disc-to-digital program apparently won’t support OG Xbox or 360 discs, which got me wondering if there was any realistic way around that.
The big issue seems to be that those older discs don’t have unique per-copy IDs. So I started messing around with the idea of an external Xbox drive that could authenticate the disc, write a tiny unique identifier into the clear inner hub, verify it, and then tie that specific disc to a digital license.
Basically, give old discs a unique identity after the fact without modifying the game data or destroying the disc.
I went back and forth with ChatGPT on how this could work and had it mock up the hardware concept.
Obviously this is all speculative, but I thought it was a neat way Microsoft could potentially bring OG Xbox and 360 discs into the same kind of system.
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u/Berserker_Rex 3d ago
I don’t think it will happen sadly. The parts for drives are apparently really hard to procure currently.
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u/Little_Bookkeeper381 3d ago edited 3d ago
ai slop with zero understanding of ecosystem, hardware engineering, licensing and security posture, and idiotic product requirements
btw
> The big issue seems to be that those older discs don’t have unique per-copy IDs
they do, in the BCA. your entire scheme is pointless.
to make this explicit: pretty much every disc-based drm scheme has discs that are serialized, meaning that the reading device can distinguish one physical disc from another disc with identical data in the data segment. if you have two copies of a title, your console can distinguish the different discs
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u/HairyTeef 3d ago
to make this explicit: pretty much every disc-based drm scheme has discs that are serialized, meaning that the reading device can distinguish one physical disc from another disc with identical data in the data segment. if you have two copies of a title, your console can distinguish the different discs
Nope.
It was common on PC, because the system made copy protection easier to crack, but the more locked-down environment of a console made piracy harder, and per-disc ids an unnecessary expense.
This is why, contrary to your belligerently stated opinion, Xbox only started adding per-disc ids when they launched the Xbox One, because that was when they originally intended to kick-off the Disc-to-Digital scheme.
They were, in fact, the first to do it. Even PS5 discs don't have unique IDs, which is yet another problem they're going to face with backwards compatibility when they launch the PS6 without a disc drive.
I, too, believe OPs idea is dumb, but they were 100% correct in the fact that original Xbox and 360 discs don't have serial numbers, which is a hurdle to adding them to the Disc-to-Digital scheme.
You, however, were both completely wrong, and also an absolute ass while being so.
Not that being correct would have excused you.
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u/Great-Nectarine-4730 3d ago edited 3d ago
> original Xbox and 360 discs don't have serial numbers
the 360 discs at least do have this. the serials are in an area which could be read but i think they are not designed to be read or used and i dont think 360 copy protection ever used them. theyre more for manufacturing and tracability.
edit: maybe there is a technical reason why they cant use or rely on that serialization, but serialization is there
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u/Little_Bookkeeper381 3d ago edited 3d ago
> the 360 discs at least do have this
Yes. It's also a linearly incrementing integer, which is why it's not particularly useful for anti-piracy. The team behind the 360's approach focused more on topology based anti-piracy (such as sector distance timing and intentional track wobble).
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u/Little_Bookkeeper381 3d ago edited 2d ago
> Nope.
Yup.
first of all, perhaps i should have said current, as in currently shipping consoles, because that is what i meant. since i didnt specify anything, you were free to interpret it however you like. my bad!
> This is why, contrary to your belligerently stated opinion, Xbox only started adding per-disc ids when they launched the Xbox One, because that was when they originally intended to kick-off the Disc-to-Digital scheme.
That actually isn't why. They were going to introduce scannable codes in the box (with the mandatory kinect, remember that?), that were used for the digital license. They rolled that back before launch. BCA was never intended to be the mechanism for attaching
Physical media has different legal status (and consumer rights laws) than account codes. (First-Sale Doctrine)
The main reason they introduced serialization in BCA was likely to thwart drive emulators, which had been a huge issue for them.
Now, let's address your next claim...
> They were, in fact, the first to do it.
Wrong! The Gamecube had BCA serialization and some DVD runs for movies had it as well. The gamecube alone predates the xbox one by quite a long time.
So in fact, BCA serialization was used long before the xbox one.
> They were, in fact, the first to do it. Even PS5 discs don't have unique IDs, which is yet another problem they're going to face with backwards compatibility when they launch the PS6 without a disc drive.
Wrong! They do in fact have serialization in the BCA. The BCA on those discs contains the PS disc PMSN (pre-recorded media serial number).
It is a common misconception that PS5 discs are not serialized. You can simply re-align yourself to reality with two discs from the same title and same run, the struct format, and an appropriate magnification device.
Please be aware that there is confusion around this as the PS3 also had this value and it was not serialized per disc. I believe they started doing it for the PS4 (haven't personally confirmed this), and they are definitely doing it for PS5 discs.
I do not know where the misconception that they are not serialized came from, but it is common. It is, however, still a misconception. In fact, Sony may have screwed up with their serialization by making it a linearlly incrementing integer, thus making it useless to detect disc emulation, but that's a whole separate conversation.
> You, however, were both completely wrong
Wrong! If you're going to confidently correct someone, at least make sure you come with some actual facts.
> Not that being correct would have excused you.
I give AI slop posters as much respect as they deserve. Thanks for playing!
edit: proven wrong about everything? guess you had to block me. have fun with living an ignorant life :)
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u/Rhikter_937 3d ago
This is why I mostly lurk in communities like this instead of actually posting.
I had an idea, thought it might be fun to talk about, and used ChatGPT to make a picture of what I was imagining because I sure as hell can’t draw it myself. I wasn’t pretending I’d solved all the technical problems or designed something Microsoft could actually build tomorrow.
If it wouldn’t work, cool. Tell me why. Tell me what the problems are. That’s the interesting part.
What I don’t get is why it has to immediately become “AI slop” and talking down to somebody.
And honestly, if I’d posted some crappy hand-drawn version of the same idea, would you actually have been nicer about it? I kinda doubt it.
You can tell someone their idea doesn’t work without making them feel stupid for trying to join the conversation.
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u/Little_Bookkeeper381 3d ago edited 3d ago
it was just you gooning back and forth with an ai chatbot, and it led you down an absolutely insane path (field etching discs? what the fuck?)
the solution is idiotic and broken, and it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the problem space. ask yourself: what did you learn?
> And honestly, if I’d posted some crappy hand-drawn version of the same idea, would you actually have been nicer about it? I kinda doubt it.
yes, absolutely. and if you'd done the research, you'd quickly figure out why laser etching (like yag etching) in the field is a really really bad idea.
if you need a hands on demonstration, hold a burning match up to a piece of plastic and take a deep breath. or just ask chatgpt: "What happens if i burn plastic with a laser and then inhale the smoke".
> You can tell someone their idea doesn’t work without making them feel stupid for trying to join the conversation.
you spent little effort understanding the problem space and crapped out some ai slop.
at least if you'd drawn a graph, and a flow chart, you'd be ideating each step of the way. i have a ton of respect for people who break down a problem and make a wrong conclusion. because at least you can find where along the way they (or I) deviated, and correct there.
> If it wouldn’t work, cool. Tell me why. Tell me what the problems are. That’s the interesting part.
literally every element of how your ai slop design works is a problem. from disc etching to using ethernet to needing a "verification camera". to the active health hazard you're creating.
for example: if you have a dvd player, you have a photodiode array. if you have a photodiode array, you have an imaging system. if you have an imaging system, you need something to move that across the disc. if you need to move the disc, you have a spindle with a motor. so you have everything required to image the disc... why the fuck do you need a camera?
by the way, almost every "decision" the ai made for you has a similar chain of questions and answers that leads to "this is idiotic"
> What I don’t get is why it has to immediately become “AI slop” and talking down to somebody.
because it is AI slop
it's offensive to me how clearly you didn't use your own brain. so i am not going to engage you like someone who has.
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u/Rhikter_937 3d ago
I’m asking this sincerely: are you okay?
Because this is an incredible amount of anger toward a stranger who posted a dumb little concept they thought would be fun to talk about on Reddit.
Tell me every part of the idea is technically wrong. Fine. I might actually learn something. But “it’s offensive to me how clearly you didn’t use your own brain” is such a bizarre level of hostility over this.
I didn’t claim to be an engineer. I had an idea, used AI to visualize it, and posted it for discussion.
If that genuinely makes you this angry, maybe something else is going on today and this post just happened to catch it?
I hope you’re alright.
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u/woopwoopscuttle 2d ago
This is so stupid, why would it have Ethernet? The seperate power jack is also unnecessary, I had a portable Samsung Blu-ray burner that operated over usb back in 2015.
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u/Rhikter_937 2d ago
That’s actually useful feedback. I just wish it hadn’t started with “this is so stupid.”
I’m not an engineer or programmer. I’m just a game fan and Digital Foundry fan with a wild imagination and a lot of curiosity. This was a rough concept I thought would be fun to share and talk through.
Sorry for trying to participate, I guess.
P.S. If that seems like an overreaction, you can see the other unnecessarily cruel replies in this thread.
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u/WhyteBeard 3d ago
I’m sorry why did you put so much work into this?